Rapture

[ajcstr]

so you don’t believe in a pre-tribulation, or mid-tribulation rapture, but you believe in in a post-tribulation rapture?

No, because I if I understand the post-trib rapture scenario correctly there is still a millenium between the rapture and the last judgement.

Catholics believe “rapture”/2nd coming/last judgement all will occur at the same time. No literal millenium.

 

[pablope]

so you don’t believe in a pre-tribulation, or mid-tribulation rapture, but you believe in in a post-tribulation rapture?

The Rapture…a catholic understanding:

Paul Thigpen wrote The Rapture Trap in 2001 in response to the popularity of Tim LaHaye’s “Left Behind” series. Here is an outline of Thigpen’s observations.

The Second Coming
I. Glorious and Visible and Audible
“And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory, And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” (Matt 24:30-31). “For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matt 24:27).

As described in the quote above. Christ will return in glory, which will be visible to all people on earth. Also see Rev 1:7: “Look, he is coming with the clouds,’ and ‘every eye will see him, even those who pierced him’; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.’”

His coming will be announced by the last trumpet:

The Rapture

Where is that teaching found in Scripture? It’s not. Let’s start with 1 Thes 4:17 quoted above:

1. “caught up… in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thes 4:17). Taken out of context, as I did, it would seem to describe a rapture of believers. Now, let’s put it into context.

This passage follows vv. 15 & 16 quoted above:
“According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (1 The 4:15-17).
We see immediately that meeting “the Lord in the air” takes place during the glorious coming of Christ, not at some prior time before that coming. Moreover, as documented by Thigpen, it was the custom in Biblical times for the people of a city to go out to meet their victorious king and escort him upon his return. We see this happening when Christ triumphantly rides into Jerusalem (cf Matt 21:8-11). In other words, Jesus is giving His followers who survive until His coming the privilege of meeting him in the air to accompany Him back down to earth.
Furthermore, it is clear that those who will “meet the Lord in the air” will do so “after” the “loud command,” the “voice of the archangel,” and the “trumpet call of God.” It will not take place on an otherwise ordinary day, as rapture supporters would have it, at least pre trib ones.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

so you don’t believe in a pre-tribulation, or mid-tribulation rapture, but you believe in in a post-tribulation rapture?

Catholic theology has no “Tribulation”. That is a 20th century invention of C.I. Schofield and dispensationalism.

 

[alwayswill]

Catholic theology has no “Tribulation”. That is a 20th century invention of C.I. Schofield and dispensationalism.

First I’m told that the rapture was an invention: yet Catholicisms believe that “Then we ho are alive and remain will be** caught up (RAPTURED)** together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,”

Now I’m told that “Tribulation” is a 20th century invention
yet
Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21** For then there will be great tribulation,** such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

Revelation 7:
14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
**
How can you say that “Tribulation” is a 20th century invention ?**

 

[alwayswill]

No, because I if I understand the post-trib rapture scenario correctly there is still a millenium between the rapture and the last judgement.

.

not necessarily: : there are post-trib rapture believing amillennialists

 

[alwayswill]

""With respect to the rapture,** Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place,** though they do not generally use the word “rapture” to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term “rapture” is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—“we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur]). "

so Catholics do believe in a rapture: they just don’t like the word; Even though the word can be traced to the Latin Vulgate…
IOW a rapture is not a “modern day invention” and the “gathering together to be with Christ” was taught prior to the 1800s

It also was not taught by anybody prior to the 1800s.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Son_of_Niall]

First I’m told that the rapture was an invention: yet Catholicisms believe that “Then we ho are alive and remain will be** caught up (RAPTURED)** together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,”

Now I’m told that “Tribulation” is a 20th century invention
yet
Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21** For then there will be great tribulation,** such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

Revelation 7:
14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
**
How can you say that “Tribulation” is a 20th century invention ?**

Because you are reading the Bible from a Dispensationalist POV. Through out Dispensationalism and you’ll understand.

 

[alwayswill]

Because you are reading the Bible from a Dispensationalist POV. Through out Dispensationalism and you’ll understand.

???
I quoted Scripture without any commentary:shrug:

please explain what is it you disagree with

Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21** For then there will be great tribulation,** such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

Revelation 7:
14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[JustaServant]

???
I quoted Scripture without any commentary:shrug:

please explain what is it you disagree with

You’re probably confused because the ‘tribulation’ being referred to by Christ is the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Christ uses much symbolic language in this passage.
The idea of
Rapture.
Seven year “great tribulation”
Second coming of Christ.
1000 year reign
Final judgement,
is a dispensationalist view of Scripture. You say you are ‘quoting without commentary’, yet the interpretation you are using originated with C.I. Schofield.
Catholics are Amillennial, although we do not use that term. We do not accept the interpretation of dispensationalists.

 

[JustaServant]

IOW a rapture is not a “modern day invention” and the “gathering together to be with Christ” was taught prior to the 1800s

Nobody ever said it was. What is novel is the way the word is used by modern day ‘prophecy experts’. How is that hard to understand?

 

[JustaServant]

Awayswill, this is the Catholic position.

 

[alwayswill]

You’re probably confused because the ‘tribulation’ being referred to by Christ is the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Christ uses much symbolic language in this passage.
The idea of
Rapture.
Seven year “great tribulation”
Second coming of Christ.
1000 year reign
Final judgement,
is a dispensationalist view of Scripture. You say you are ‘quoting without commentary’, yet the interpretation you are using originated with C.I. Schofield.
Catholics are Amillennial, although we do not use that term. We do not accept the interpretation of dispensationalists.

I did not interpret it
I quoted Scripture

But you interpreted it:
Your interpretation was that it was about “the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD”

Lets see if that fits the facts:
Matthew 24:
20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
21** For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. **
<Is it your view that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a greater than the Flood greater or than the Jewish Holocaust?>
22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short"
<Is it your view that during destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD that If God did not cut it short,“no human being would be saved”?>

 

[alwayswill]

Nobody ever said it was. What is novel is the way the word is used by modern day ‘prophecy experts’. How is that hard to understand?

Re : Tribulation> the quote was “Catholic theology has no “Tribulation”. That is a 20th century invention of C.I. Schofield and dispensationalism”

Catholic theology has no “Tribulation”. That is a 20th century invention of C.I. Schofield and dispensationalism.

regarding rapture> the quote was>
It also was not taught by anybody prior to the 1800s.

It also was not taught by anybody prior to the 1800s.

ICXC NIKA

 

[pablope]

First I’m told that the rapture was an invention: yet Catholicisms believe that “Then we ho are alive and remain will be** caught up (RAPTURED)** together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,”

Now I’m told that “Tribulation” is a 20th century invention
yet
Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21** For then there will be great tribulation,** such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

Revelation 7:
14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
**
How can you say that “Tribulation” is a 20th century invention ?**

As everyone has been saying…it is your interpretation and understanding of the “TRIBULATION” is a 20th century invention.

 

[pablope]

I did not interpret it
I quoted Scripture

But you interpreted it:
Your interpretation was that it was about “the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD”

Lets see if that fits the facts:
Matthew 24:
20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
21** For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. **
<Is it your view that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a greater than the Flood greater or than the Jewish Holocaust?>
22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short"
<Is it your view that during destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD that If God did not cut it short,“no human being would be saved”?>

But you are doing the same thing…interpreting what that Tribulation is…

The Catholic understanding of the Tribulation is an old understanding not based on 20th century interpretation.

Your understanding or “interpretation” of what the Tribulation is…is based on 20th century poin of view.

 

[alwayswill]

As everyone has been saying…it is your interpretation and understanding of the “TRIBULATION” is a 20th century invention.

No where in this thread have I interpreted anything:

Lets get straight to the point

Catholic theology has no “Tribulation”. That is a 20th century invention of C.I. Schofield and dispensationalism.

Do Catholics believe in a future tribulation?

Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21** For then there will be great tribulation,** such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

Revelation 7:
14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Do Catholics believe that believers will be caught up (raptured) in the clouds with the Lord?

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain
will be caught up together
with them in the clouds
to meet the Lord in the air,
and so we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[alwayswill]

But you are doing the same thing…interpreting what that Tribulation is…

The Catholic understanding of the Tribulation is an old understanding not based on 20th century interpretation.

Your understanding or “interpretation” of what the Tribulation is…is based on 20th century poin of view.

** please show me where I interpreted or provided any commentary on the verses I posted**

 

[Son_of_Niall]

** please show me where I interpreted or provided any commentary on the verses I posted**

You’ve been given the answer by several people several times.
Either you are simply not reading the posts OR you are trying to proselytize.

 

[alwayswill]

You’ve been given the answer by several people several times.
Either you are simply not reading the posts OR you are trying to proselytize.

Lets stick to the facts:
Can you show me anywhere in this thread where I interpreted or provided any commentary on the verses I posted?

I know you can’t , because I haven’t , not even once.
I posted Scripture.

I hope you can please answer the questions I asked about Catholic beliefs in post #56
thank you

 

[Darryl_B]

Lets stick to the facts:
Can you show me anywhere in this thread where I interpreted or provided any commentary on the verses I posted?

I know you can’t , because I haven’t , not even once.
I posted Scripture.

I hope you can please answer the questions I asked about Catholic beliefs in post #56
thank you

Quoting Scripture. Good. Supposition not so good. Matthew 24 Mark 13 and Luke 21 are referring to AD70. You can tell because Jesus Christ was answering specific questions presented to him by his disciples.

The disciples did not ask “what will be the sign of you coming back” as far as they were concerned Jesus Christ was not going away. They were asking what the sign is of Jesus Christ taking the throne of his father David.

This is where interpretation comes into play. If one believes the Kingdom of God is not currently established then you will interpret signs future. If you believe the Kingdom of God was established when Jesus Christ sat down at the right hand of God the Father the understanding fill be different. Sufficient enough to accept “this generation shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilled” without the necessity of future dating a different generation.

Revelation 7 the sealed 144000 are priests, with apostolic succession. The 12 are the Apostles, excluding Dan (Judas Iscariot) being replaced in his office by another. Who then 12 more and so on and so on and so on. The great multitude are those going through the great tribulation which is happening right now and has been happening always even since Abel.