Rational Abortion Support

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Dj Roy Albert:
You, (like most pro-aborts) have used the term “fetus” to dehumanize a living, breathing person, a being fully dependent upon his/her mother for life.
Fetuses breathe? Don’t you hate it when you make a slip that totally undermines your position?
Dehumanization of the children murdered in the womb is where the crime of abortion began.
So I can put you down as not wanting to discuss this respectfully?
Fact: When a woman wants to give live to her child she refers to the child as a “baby” or “my baby”. When the child is unwanted it is called a “fetus”.
Wow! What a truly accurate and relevant “fact.”
Medical science is a satans’ favorite tool. It makes gods out of complete fools & denies the exsitence of the one true God.
Yes the dark ages were so much more fun. So out of curiousity, Roy, you don’t go to any doctors, right? I mean since medical science is a tool of satan if you got a wierd lump on your neck you’d just stay home, right? Cause otherwise I’d just have to question your double standard.
 
Lisa N:
Also realize the term fetus is NOT limited to humans but is an unborn vertebrate, not just an unborn human. So for Tlaloc to call the unborn child a fetus is incomplete. At the very least it is a HUMAN fetus. The operative word being human.

Lisa N
Yes it is a human fetus, I thought we could take that as a given. The imperative difference is between human fetus and human being.
 
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cove:
RATIONAL ABORTION SUPPORT?😦
Serial killers use rationales to support their reasoning.
Slave traders and owners used rationales to support their reasoning.
Hitler and the Nazis used rationales to support his reasoning.
Hopefully if confronted with any of those groups you could successfully argue against their reasons.
I am sure you get the picture on what I think of your rationales supporting abortion. I see no difference in your reasoning as compared to these groups.
Obviously which is why I started this thread, to help educate people like you into understanding how a person can reasonably believe in abortion. That will let you approach the subject in a much more successful way. Do you really expect to accomplish anything by simply declaring all pro-choice people to be serial-killer-slave-trading-Nazis? Do you think it makes an effective way to get your point across?

(hint- the answer to the last question is “No”.)
 
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Tlaloc:
It’s connected to the mother, depends on her ability to breathe, eat, excrete, etc. In other words it does not carry out all the processes that we consider part of life. After a certain point it develops enough that if removed from the mother it can do all these things on its own. At that point it is a separate organism, before that point it is not.
Tlaloc the fundamental problem with your definition is that it’s inconsistent. You could not use the same standard at every moment of life from conception to natural death. You claim to want a rational standard, but to justify abortion at a particular stage would would also justify killing or allowing the death of human beings that do not have capacity to “breathe, eat, excrete” on their own.

I hardly think those functions define humanity, and the reality is that there are people whose digestive or respiratory systems have been compromised by medical conditions. Do you condone the active killing of other humans who are compromised by limitations in digestion or respiratory system?

Lisa N
 
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Tlaloc:
The question is whether you will approach the discussion in a respectful mature way. The use of “erroneous” and “ignorant” here doesn’t suggest you are.
Error and ignorance (as in not knowing) is what it is. Respect and maturity have nothing to do with it. All along you have been making statements that are erroneous and ignorant of biological realities. Pick up a textbook and see for yourself. Several of us have tried to point these errors out to you, but you apparently don’t care.

Sorry for the choice of words, but facts is facts and error is error. You might be a prince among men, but with regard to biology, anatomy, genetics and physiology, many of your stated opinions are erroneous and ignorant. Sorry for the tough love.
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Tlaloc:
I’d love someone to post facts instead of base appeals to emotion. Do you have some?
You’re the one making the argument. Where are your facts? The burden of proof is yours, not ours. Let’s see any factual support for any of the assertions you made. I won’t hold my breath.

I don’t have time to pull the books off the shelf and do your research for you, but this site has some information in summary form abortion.netfirms.com/faqprenataldevelopvanderbilt.htm I will post it in a followup. message.
 
vanderbilt.edu/SFL/fetology.htm

What science REALLY states about the beginning of life and fetal development. (Average age of the abortion of an unborn baby is 12 weeks after conception):

The Facts of Prenatal Development

Is it a human being?

“From the moment a baby is conceived, it bears the indelible stamp of a separate distinct personality, an individual different from all other individuals.” Ultrasound pioneer, Sir William Liley, M.D. 1967.

“After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into existence. This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.” Dr. Jerome Lejeune, genetics professor at the University of Descartes, Paris. He discovered the Down syndrome chromosome.

“It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception.” Professor M. Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School.

“By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.” Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic.

When does the heart begin to beat?

At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. J.M. Tanner, G. R. Taylor, and the Editors of Time-Life Books, Growth, New York: Life Science Library, 1965, p.

When is the brain functioning?

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, “Life or Death by EEG,” JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, “appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation,” or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, “Development of the Fetal Brain,” New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

How early do some organs form?

The eye, ear and respiratory systems begin to form four weeks after fertilization. K. Moore, Before We Were Born, 3rd ed., 1989, p. 278

And function?

Very early, e.g., glucagon, a blood sugar hormone, has been demonstrated in the fetal pancreas 6 weeks after fertilization, and insulin by 7 to 8. F. Cunningham, “Pancreas,” William’s Obstet., 19th ed., 1993, p. 183-4

Thumbsucking has been photographed at 7 weeks after fertilization. W. Liley, The Fetus As Personality, Fetal Therapy, 1986, p. 8-17

When does the developing baby first move?

“In the sixth to seventh weeks. . . . If the area of the lips is gently stroked, the child responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with his arms. This is called a ‘total pattern response’ because it involves most of the body, rather than a local part.” L. B. Arey, Developmental Anatomy (6th ed.), Philadelphia: W. B. Sanders Co., 1954

At eight weeks, “if we tickle the baby’s nose, he will flex his head backwards away from the stimulus.” A. Hellgers, M.D., “Fetal Development, 31,” Theological Studies, vol. 3, no. 7, 1970, p. 26

Another example is from a surgical technician whose letter said, "When we opened her abdomen (for a tubal pregnancy), the tube had expelled an inch-long fetus, about 4-6 weeks old. It was still alive in the sack. “That tiny baby was waving its little arms and kicking its little legs and even turned its whole body over.” J. Dobson, Focus on the Family Mag., Aug. ’91, pg. 16

When are all her body systems present?

By eight weeks (two months). Hooker & Davenport, The Prenatal Origin of Behavior, University of Kansas Press, 1952

(continued)
 
vanderbilt.edu/SFL/fetology.htm (continued)

When do teeth form?

All 20 milk-teeth buds are present at six and a half weeks.“Life Before Birth,” Life Magazine, Apr. 30, 1965, p. 10

And include dental lamina at 8 weeks. Med. Embryology, Longman, 3rd Ed., 1975, p. 406

How about nine weeks?

At nine to ten weeks, he squints, swallows, moves his tongue, and if you stroke his palm, will make a tight fist.

By nine weeks he will “bend his fingers round an object in the palm of his hand.” Valman & Pearson, “What the Fetus Feels,” British Med. Jour., Jan. 26, 1980

When does he start to breathe?

“By 11 to 12 weeks (3 months), he is breathing fluid steadily and continues so until birth. At birth, he will breathe air. He does not drown by breathing fluid with-in his mother, because he obtains his oxygen from his umbilical cord. This breathing develops the organs of respiration.” “Life Before Birth,” Life Magazine, Apr. 30, 1965, p. 13

“Maternal cigarette smoking during pregnancy decreases the frequency of fetal breathing by 20%. The ‘well documented’ higher incidence of prematurity, stillbirth, and slower development of reading skill may be related to this decrease.” 80 F. Manning, “Meeting of Royal College of Physicians & Surgeons,” Family Practice News, March 15, 1976

“In the 11th week of gestation fetal breathing is irregular and episodic. As gestation continues, the breathing movements become more vigorous and rapid.” C. Dawes, “Fetal Breathing: Indication of Well Being,” Family Practice News, Mar. 16, 1976, p. 6

Episodic spontaneous breathing movement have been observed in the healthy human fetus as early as ten weeks gestational age. Conners et al., “Control of Fetal Breathing in the Human Fetus,” Am J. OB-GYN, April ‘89, p. 932

When can she swallow?

At 11 weeks. Valman & Pearson, British Med. Jour., “What the Fetus Feels,” 26 Jan. 1980, p. 233

What of detailed development, like fingernails and eyelashes?

Fingernails are present by 11 to 12 weeks; eyelashes by 16 weeks. Fingerprints are completely established during the fourth month of gestation. Hamilton et al., Human Embryology, Fourth Ed., 1972, p. 567

At what point are all her body systems working?

By 11 weeks. “Life Before Birth,” Life Magazine, Apr. 30, 1965, p. 13

How does the size of the baby increase in weight?

At 12 weeks (three months) she weighs about 30 gm (1.0 ounce); at 16 weeks about 170 gm (6 ounces); and at 20 weeks (four months), approximately 454 gm (one pound).

When is taste present?

“Taste buds are working between 13 and 15 weeks gestation” (11 to 13 weeks after conception). Mistretta & Bradley, Taste in Utero, 1977, p. 62 Bradley et al., “Dev. Taste Buds . . . ,” J. Anat. 101 (4) 1967, p. 743-752

How about hearing?

“Auditory sense is present in the infant 24 weeks before birth [14 weeks after conception]. This involves brain functioning and memory patterns.” M. Clemens, “5th International Congress Psychosomatic,” OB & GYN, Rome: Medical Tribune, Mar. 22, 1978, p. 7
 
But I’m sure your response is going to be something like - “just a blob of tissue, not a complete organism” or some such tripe. Ignorance is bliss.
 
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Tlaloc:
Yes it is a human fetus, I thought we could take that as a given. The imperative difference is between human fetus and human being.
There is no difference.

Lisa N
 
Ohio Bob, thanks for the information on fetal development. The tubal pregnancy where the unborn baby kicked its feet and waved its arms is so sad. Truly a tiny human lost his life at that moment. This makes clear the necessity for the recent legislation on pain control to the child while it is being hacked apart. Gee we’re so compassionate aren’t we? At least NARAL is backing down from their objection to this bill. Maybe even THEY have some sense of responsibility for recognition that unborn babies feel pain. Hopefully this will bring a better understanding of exactly what happens during an abortion. If the mother has that understanding, she may be less likely to take this step.

Lisa N
 
Tlaloc, I know you’re busy with many posts, but I’d love to read your thoughts on the hypo I posed in post #192 of this thread.
 
Lisa N:
Tlaloc the fundamental problem with your definition is that it’s inconsistent. You could not use the same standard at every moment of life from conception to natural death.
That isn’t a problem, Lisa. We use specific definitions for certain situations all the time. So long as we recognize their limited application that’s fine. If you were correct we could never have multiple definitions for the same word because every use of the word would have to be interchangable with every other usage. That isn’t the case. To “run” in the park means something completely different than to “run” a computer program. We know that each definition has limited uses.
 
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OhioBob:
Error and ignorance (as in not knowing) is what it is. Respect and maturity have nothing to do with it. All along you have been making statements that are erroneous and ignorant of biological realities. Pick up a textbook and see for yourself. Several of us have tried to point these errors out to you, but you apparently don’t care.
Uh no, several posters have managled biology, confounded objective and subjective and otherwise engaged in ridiculous flights of fancy. A tradition I see you proudly continue.
 
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OhioBob:
But I’m sure your response is going to be something like - “just a blob of tissue, not a complete organism” or some such tripe. Ignorance is bliss.
Are you kidding? I could kiss you!

You just gave two long posts absolutely brimming with support of my position. Your contention of the fetus being a separate human being from conception is nicely dealt with as you rattle off factoid after factoid of how long it takes a fetus to develop into an organism!
 
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Tlaloc:
Uh no, several posters have managled biology, confounded objective and subjective and otherwise engaged in ridiculous flights of fancy. A tradition I see you proudly continue.
LisaN didn’t mangle biology and niether did the others,it seems you are trying to over look the facts for some reason.Why is that?:nope:
 
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Tlaloc:
Are you kidding? I could kiss you!

You just gave two long posts absolutely brimming with support of my position. Your contention of the fetus being a separate human being from conception is nicely dealt with as you rattle off factoid after factoid of how long it takes a fetus to develop into an organism!
You’re a lost cause, pal.
I’ve got better things to do.
 
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Genesis315:
I have a question for an abortion supporter. Let’s say there are adult siamese twins. They can live just fine together, it’s just inconvenient or burdensome. But if they were split apart, one could survive on his own, while the other would die. The dependent one cannot perform some biological function(s) without one or more of his brother’s organs. They both share common tissue. Should the one that can survive independently be able to have his brother cut off?
Very good Genesis. I keep waiting for someone to actually think of this aspect.

Yes by my definition the siamese twins at least in the womb are considered a single entity. However since as before the definition is implictly limited to determining such fetal development it provides no real issue for later in life when such a perception might be a problem.
 
Rational Abortion Support? Does that make sense? It’s like saying Al Queda Intelligence.
 
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