Rationale for Universal Health Care

[Arizona_Fat_Gir]

Poor people have Medicaid. They can have treatment under the Medicaid program.

Some have health insurance. Some can’t afford health insurance, so they go along and hope for the best. If they get sick and need to go to the hospital, they can either refuse and say they can’t afford it, and then they can die. If they go to the hospital, they will be carrying a heavy debt for a long time. Sometimes hospitals can work with patients, but more often than not, they will get a collection agency on the people who can’t pay.

Collection agencies stink. They get very nasty, demanding juice from a stone. In some instances, the hospital sues and gets the patient’s house or any other asset available.

But then, the patient could go bankrupt, and the hospital can’t get anything from them.

I admit that once I had to pay my own hospital expense, but I did have the money at the time. However, my husband and I did not own any property. We rented. If you have nothing, I don’t think the hospital can get anything and must just write it off.

Some people work as volunteers with hours of dedication to the hospital. They do every job within the scope of volunteering that they are allowed to do. They save the hospital quite a bit of money by volunteering. If the hospital had to pay these people for their services, it would be more expensive to go to the hospital. The county hospital or some not-for-profit hospital may be able to take more people who can’t pay. In Chicago, I remember Cook County Hospital took care of my grandmother and my aunt because they were unable to pay for their own care. They were on public assistance.

 

[Brendan]

I would think, I don’t know for sure, that Pope Francis is referring to basic medical care. .

Considering that he was address Doctors With Africa, specifically those men and women who work with those who have no health care at all, I think you are quite right.

Every proposal that I have seen regarding ‘Universal Health Care’ has been anything but. Most have involved increasing health care for those who already have access to at least basic health care.

None of the proposals I have seen have been truly Universal, in that health care for those who have none, like those in the developing world, have access.

I do regular missionary work in Africa. I have been in villages where the only health care available is the first aid kit in the parish priest’s hut.

Until those people have access to the basics of health care, I see little value in more healthcare spending in delveloped countries.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

How many people do you personally know who can diagnose, treat and cure a brain tumor? Or leukemia? Or dementia? I am curious as to how you expect to provide these services to everyone as a “right” when it takes the private sector and people who personally choose to invest many years of their life in order to study, train and successfully practice medicine? If these people no longer give of themselves because some declare that their fees are too high or that they shouldn’t be able to make money from treatment, medicines or various medical equipment, then who is going to come forward to guarantee your “right?”

We in this country are very fortunate that we have an economy and a free enterprise system that allows the emergence and growth of the medical industry that can help people with horrible medical conditions. But don’t try and say that people in the Congo, where civil war brews and there is barely the most minimal conditions of the basics, have the “right” to everything that we have here.

Yes, you are very fortunate. I heard just this morning on the radio that an American pharmaceutical company developed a drug for cystic fibrosis that saves the lives of 40% of sufferers. The CEO of the company gets 45 million a year in salary.

The drug costs 250,000 euro a year. 600 patients a year in Ireland alone would live if that drug was available. But instead only the elite CF sufferers can afford to not choke to death.

A “free enterprise system” that leaves the working class suffering and dying because they can’t afford basic rights is something to be ashamed of.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

How many people do you personally know who can diagnose, treat and cure a brain tumor? Or leukemia? Or dementia? I am curious as to how you expect to provide these services to everyone as a “right” when it takes the private sector and people who personally choose to invest many years of their life in order to study, train and successfully practice medicine? If these people no longer give of themselves because some declare that their fees are too high or that they shouldn’t be able to make money from treatment, medicines or various medical equipment, then who is going to come forward to guarantee your “right?”

You can say the exact same thing about the construction sector - in situations where homelessness gets out of control, affordable housing will be needed. Of course doctors should be able to make money - the government has a responsibility to not leave its citizens die. If you are happy with your taxes being wasted on the military and not on preventing a poor child dying from cancer, then I must say I find that confusing.

 

[Rhubarb]

Counterintuitively, it does neither.

We’re reading different studies then.

 

[Theo520]

While in reality it is usually and probably not this way, it may seem like people need to get a good-paying job in order to acess therapy and counseling for their issues and problems. How would you respond to this argument if it was presented as a reason for universal health care?

I don’t think universal health care will provide the ongoing therapy you are looking for. As evidence, the Canadian system doesn’t fund ongoing mental health support to people outside of a hospital. If you aren’t in a crisis, you don’t get free therapy.

With limited resources, the money will go to treating very clear physical ailments I think.

 

[Midwest88]

You can from an argument for almost anything.

With that said, a vast amount of these comments are strange.

Don’t like “free enterprise” because it makes medicine unaffordable? Do you seriously think it’s the system of “free enterprise”'s fault?

Trying to play the gotcha card with “why are roads a right” but not healthcare?

It’s funny, really. This all can be summed up in “If we just concentrated our taxes to healthcare everyone would be fine!”

 

[Midwest88]

Considering that he was address Doctors With Africa, specifically those men and women who work with those who have no health care at all, I think you are quite right.

Every proposal that I have seen regarding ‘Universal Health Care’ has been anything but. Most have involved increasing health care for those who already have access to at least basic health care.

None of the proposals I have seen have been truly Universal, in that health care for those who have none, like those in the developing world, have access.

I do regular missionary work in Africa. I have been in villages where the only health care available is the first aid kit in the parish priest’s hut.

Until those people have access to the basics of health care, I see little value in more healthcare spending in delveloped countries.

Explain the philosophy behind the bold.

 

[twf]

You can from an argument for almost anything.

With that said, a vast amount of these comments are strange.

Don’t like “free enterprise” because it makes medicine unaffordable? Do you seriously think it’s the system of “free enterprise”'s fault?

Trying to play the gotcha card with “why are roads a right” but not healthcare?

It’s funny, really. This all can be summed up in “If we just concentrated our taxes to healthcare everyone would be fine!”

It’s not a “gotcha” card. I live in a country where it’s a given that both roads and health care are basic rights and made available to all. It’s not debated here… It’s just reality. What is your argument for why health care should NOT be made available to all? What is your refutation of the holy father’s statement that health care is a universal right?

 

[LethalMouse]

The anwmswer to all things: Implementation

 

[Theo520]

It’s not a “gotcha” card. I live in a country where it’s a given that both roads and health care are basic rights and made available to all. It’s not debated here… It’s just reality. What is your argument for why health care should NOT be made available to all? What is your refutation of the holy father’s statement that health care is a universal right?

There is a difference to it being available and it being free at whatever levels you desire.

Take mental healthcare in Canada, you have to pay for therapy unless you are at the hospital in a crisis (per my understanding).

 

[twf]

There is a difference to it being available and it being free at whatever levels you desire.

Take mental healthcare in Canada, you have to pay for therapy unless you are at the hospital in a crisis (per my understanding).

Of course. Each society must collectively decide what constitutes basic necessities to be provided to all as resources are finite. In Canada each province administers it’s own health care system, so I can’t speak for the whole country… But yes, there isn’t unlimited therapy for all at free of charge. If you are diagnosed with mental illness, then you could be referred for psychological evaluation and counselling.

 

[Brendan]

Explain the philosophy behind the bold.

Sure, imagine that you have a group of people who need food. A minority have access to filet and caviar. A larger majority have access to hamburger. The largest group does not even have access to even a spoonful of rice.

Why should we spend money on getting the ‘hamburger’ folks ‘up’ to filet when the largest group does not even have rice.

That is how it is with health care. Even the poorest in the US have access to some really excellent health care. Yes it is expensive, but they have access.

They are at the hamburger level.

But what about a person in a rural village in the DR Congo? What level of health care are THEY entitled to? Why should we spend money on getting an American cheaper access to MRI’s when there are many in the world who cannot even get access to a clean Band-Aid and some disinfectant.

Are they less human? Do they have few rights in this regard?

 

[Theo520]

Sure, imagine that you have a group of people who need food. A minority have access to filet and caviar. A larger majority have access to hamburger. The largest group does not even have access to even a spoonful of rice.

Why should we spend money on getting the ‘hamburger’ folks ‘up’ to filet when the largest group does not even have rice.

That is how it is with health care. Even the poorest in the US have access to some really excellent health care. Yes it is expensive, but they have access.

They are at the hamburger level.

But what about a person in a rural village in the DR Congo? What level of health care are THEY entitled to? Why should we spend money on getting an American cheaper access to MRI’s when there are many in the world who cannot even get access to a clean Band-Aid and some disinfectant.

Are they less human? Do they have few rights in this regard?

Each Government is primarily responsible to their own citizens. Your argument seems to be the US Govt is responsible for supplanting all ineffectual Governments around the world. While this is very christian, it contradicts the role of Government.

I support our Govt helping other Governments improve their effectiveness, but we are not able to do their job for them. As already noted, we have questionable performance even within our own borders.

Donating to Doctors without borders is probably a much better way in impacting healthcare on the ground in foreign countries.

 

[Viki63]

While in reality it is usually and probably not this way, it may seem like people need to get a good-paying job in order to access therapy and counseling for their issues and problems. How would you respond to this argument if it was presented as a reason for universal health care?

In reality it certainly is this way.
Disabled people can get Medicaid, and people over 65 can get Medicare. Those under 65 with medical problems had better have decent jobs with benefits, or they are out of luck.
Even those benefits don’t cover all the mental health issues.

Many people in the US go without medications and procedures they need because of cost. The insurance companies siphon off the profit, and doctors have to hire armies of people to manage insurance billing.

I hear people complain about letting the government manage funding for healthcare, but do we really want to continue to enrich insurance CEOs at the cost of people’s health and lives? If we cut out the middlemen we could afford healthcare for everyone.

.

 

[magnet]

What is a right? Is it a license to demand that something be provided that is beyond the capability to provide that right?

It has been stated that roads are a human right? What is a road? An animal trail can be regarded as a road. Are bridges a human right? Is it a basic right to have roads and bridges in any location demanded by the claimant?

A band-aid can be regarded as healthcare. So can brain surgery. Are both kinds of health care basic rights?

 

[Viki63]

A band-aid can be regarded as healthcare. So can brain surgery. Are both kinds of health care basic rights?

Why not? We are the richest country in the world, why shouldn’t brain surgery be available for those who need it?
It’s not something that anyone who doesn’t need it is going to request.

If it gets so too many people are needing brain surgery, we can rethink the requirements for it. But at this point, many people who are underinsured can’t even afford to visit their doctor or buy their medicines. We are living like a third world country. We can’t continue.

.

 

[Theo520]

Why not? We are the richest country in the world, why shouldn’t brain surgery be available for those who need it?
It’s not something that anyone who doesn’t need it is going to request.

If it gets so too many people are needing brain surgery, we can rethink the requirements for it. But at this point, many people who are underinsured can’t even afford to visit their doctor or buy their medicines. We are living like a third world country. We can’t continue.
.

Brain surgery isn’t the issue, nor most cancer treatments. It’s mostly other issues that are persistent and require frequent critical care. There is a small group of high cost patients that need $100k plus in annual treatment, or perhaps it’s expensive care that extends end of life. A few common examples are renal disease, hemophilia, or respiratory failure. They chew through a lot of care in the ICU.

 

[Widlast]

The real problem is that the medical care system is broken. There are way too many ridiculous costs built into the system and way too many greedy people feeding off the system at every turn.

 

[magnet]

My 79 year-old brother recently died after spending several miserable months in the hospital. He had developed respiratory insufficiency that developed into pneumonia. He needed assistance just to breathe and had a tracheotomy so oxygen could be supplied without going through the regular oral/nasal route. He eventually started choking on his own saliva, and could not swallow food. His doctor intubated him so that food could be injected directly into his stomach.

Early on, his doctor had seen no hope that he could ever be cured, and asked the family if terminating his life support systems would be a blessing to end his suffering. The family refused this option. So he had a miserable 4 months before he died requiring tens of thousands of dollars of medical services that only prolonged his agony.

Is this a good use of taxpayer supported health care? Is it even healthcare?