RC Church becoming more Eastern?

[Bluegoat]

I was talking about pews with my ROCOR priest this week. They appear mostly in Greek churches. Since many of the converts are joining Antiochian or OCA churches, I suspect that pews are actually becoming rarer in the Orthodox world, at least in North America.

Having spent my first Lent in an Orthodox church, I now get the lack of pews. How can one do the Presanctified and other Lenten liturgies that require prostrations with pews?

I also noticed that the lack of pews was nice for kids trying to entertain themselves - it seems to make it acceptable to wander around and look at things.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m always in the minority–I am ok with pews LOL

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m always in the minority–I am ok with pews LOL

I like them too, I’m just happy with anything that might tame my three-year old. I visited a local United Church, which I think had been Presbyterian, and they had big, spacious pews with doors. Totally toddler-proof.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Orthodox are generally anti-pew. Anything Western some of them tend to balk at. Doesn’t bug me. I like 'em, like I said. The nicest pews EVER are at the LCMS Lutheran school/church my son attends for kindergarten. The pews are padded. It’s like the Cadillac of pewery!

I like them too, I’m just happy with anything that might tame my three-year old. I visited a local United Church, which I think had been Presbyterian, and they had big, spacious pews with doors. Totally toddler-proof.

 

[Bluegoat]

The Orthodox are generally anti-pew. Anything Western some of them tend to balk at. Doesn’t bug me. I like 'em, like I said. The nicest pews EVER are at the LCMS Lutheran school/church my son attends for kindergarten. The pews are padded. It’s like the Cadillac of pewery!

I’ve had some pews that were positivly penitential. No pews would be better than those.

It’s interesting to notice the behavior differences though. In pew churches, people sit in one spot, stay there, they are pretty organized all looking to the front, and so on. With no pews, the arrive all at different times, wander around, pray however and whenever they want, kids go around kissing things and trying to start fires…

This is why at German festivals everyone stands in lines, whereas at Greek fest they have clumps.

 

[Hesychios]

I’ve had some pews that were positivly penitential. No pews would be better than those.

It’s interesting to notice the behavior differences though. In pew churches, people sit in one spot, stay there, they are pretty organized all looking to the front, and so on. With no pews, the arrive all at different times, wander around, pray however and whenever they want, kids go around kissing things and trying to start fires…

This is why at German festivals everyone stands in lines, whereas at Greek fest they have clumps.

 

[Hesychios]

Having spent my first Lent in an Orthodox church, I now get the lack of pews. How can one do the Presanctified and other Lenten liturgies that require prostrations with pews?

They tend to serve as corrals, with the persons on the end as the gatekeeper

I think backless benches spread about should work nicely, with pew benches along a couple of walls. It is important to leave a lot of standing (and prostrating) room. It’s hard to make a deep bow with a solid block of wood in your way.

One could seriously get hurt, but it doesn’t happen because the congregation stops bowing and takes to nodding the head.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It’s funny that all the Orthodox at the parish I’m visiting have their own little spot they sit at every week. Some things are the same at ALL denominations and churches!

I’ve had some pews that were positivly penitential. No pews would be better than those.

It’s interesting to notice the behavior differences though. In pew churches, people sit in one spot, stay there, they are pretty organized all looking to the front, and so on. With no pews, the arrive all at different times, wander around, pray however and whenever they want, kids go around kissing things and trying to start fires…

This is why at German festivals everyone stands in lines, whereas at Greek fest they have clumps.

 

[5Loaves]

Having spent my first Lent in an Orthodox church, I now get the lack of pews. How can one do the Presanctified and other Lenten liturgies that require prostrations with pews?

It’s not a problem in the Greek Orthodox Church I’m in for a number of services during Great Lent because there are only about 6-10 of us in the place, which I suppose seats maybe 200. I and several others stand in the aisles the entire time. The others sit at the end of the pew and move out into the aisle for prostrations. I think you can’t reverence (Sign of the Cross and bow, or just bow) in a pew and we have so many times in a service when we make these bows and reverences.

There may be Russian parishes with pews but I’ve not been in one. It’s my preference to be in a Russian parish as a Russian Catholic but I can’t always make the distance to a Russsian Church many nights in a row in Great Lent. The Greeks are close by. This week again we have many services for the leavetaking of Pascha and for Ascension so I expect to be with the Greeks on Wed. It’s their altar feast so probably there will be more than 6-10 of us there that night.

 

[dvdjs]

There may be Russian parishes with pews but I’ve not been in one.

Taking a quick look at the US MP parishes with websites, half have photos that show pews; they are hardly uncommon.

3saints.com/
stnicholasberks.org/
sspeterandpaulelizabeth.com/
holytrinityorthodox.com/
saintmichaelsroc.org/album.html
saintnicholasrussianorthodoxchurch.com/#
saintspeterandpaulscranton.com/
steliasorthodoxchurch.org/
standreworthodoxchurch.us/
sspproc.org/

Children wandering around during services in churches - pewless or otherwise - is a modern phenomenon, as is the idea that that is somehow nice.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

The Orthodox are generally anti-pew. Anything Western some of them tend to balk at. Doesn’t bug me. I like 'em, like I said. The nicest pews EVER are at the LCMS Lutheran school/church my son attends for kindergarten. The pews are padded. It’s like the Cadillac of pewery!

Padded pews, delicious coffee and donuts, ridiculously long hymns, and Oktorberfest: this is what the LCMS is good for.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

They’re good folks. The LCMS Christians I know by and large are loving, conservative, good Christian folks. I do have to say as far as coffee hours go the Orthodox are the greatest! Yesterday after the Divine Liturgy those people at a coffee hour that was off the hook good! LOL

Padded pews, delicious coffee and donuts, ridiculously long hymns, and Oktorberfest: this is what the LCMS is good for.

 

[Bluegoat]

They’re good folks. The LCMS Christians I know by and large are loving, conservative, good Christian folks. I do have to say as far as coffee hours go the Orthodox are the greatest! Yesterday after the Divine Liturgy those people at a coffee hour that was off the hook good! LOL

What made it so impressive?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

We need to start a thread: Orthodoxy—Why their coffee hours never cease to impress! Or someone could start a “Why Did I Become Orthodox?” thread and people can vote:

liturgy
theology
traditions
polity
COFFEE HOUR

What made it so impressive?

 

[5Loaves]

Taking a quick look at the US MP parishes with websites, half have photos that show pews; they are hardly uncommon.

3saints.com/
stnicholasberks.org/
sspeterandpaulelizabeth.com/
holytrinityorthodox.com/
saintmichaelsroc.org/album.html
saintnicholasrussianorthodoxchurch.com/#
saintspeterandpaulscranton.com/
steliasorthodoxchurch.org/
standreworthodoxchurch.us/
sspproc.org/

Go ahead and wreck my day.
I wonder if it’s less so as you move west. I’m only familiar with the larger SF Bay area and none of the OCA in this area have pews. As far as ROCOR I’m only familiar with the Holy Virgin Cathedral, just a few benches at the entrance for the elderly and those who require seating.

 

[Patchunky]

Taking a quick look at the US MP parishes with websites, half have photos that show pews; they are hardly uncommon.

3saints.com/
stnicholasberks.org/
sspeterandpaulelizabeth.com/
holytrinityorthodox.com/
saintmichaelsroc.org/album.html
saintnicholasrussianorthodoxchurch.com/#
saintspeterandpaulscranton.com/
steliasorthodoxchurch.org/
standreworthodoxchurch.us/
sspproc.org/

Children wandering around during services in churches - pewless or otherwise - is a modern phenomenon, as is the idea that that is somehow nice.

This is Holy Trinity MP Orthodox church in Baltimore, MD

holytrinityorthodox.com/about.htm

It’s got pews and dates from 1919.

 

[dvdjs]

COFFEE HOUR

Ha. You missed the old days - churches with men who worked in mills and mines. In those days after the liturgy, not before 12 noon by law, the “social club” would open in the church hall. Not coffee, but Imp and Iron.

 

[The_Sentry]

We need to start a thread: Orthodoxy—Why their coffee hours never cease to impress! Or someone could start a “Why Did I Become Orthodox?” thread and people can vote:

liturgy
theology
traditions
polity
COFFEE HOUR

Oh wow. The last time I was at an Orthodox church, there must have been 50 families who brought snacks and actual meals to the “coffee hour.” Put my old Anglican home parish to shame. Those Eastern guys get the job done.

 

[dvdjs]

Go ahead and wreck my day.
I wonder if it’s less so as you move west. I’m only familiar with the larger SF Bay area and none of the OCA in this area have pews. As far as ROCOR I’m only familiar with the Holy Virgin Cathedral, just a few benches at the entrance for the elderly and those who require seating.

Not to wreck your day, but just so you know that much of what are thought to be salient characteristics of the EO way, just isn’t.

I would guess that the decision to have pews or not was strongly influenced time, geography, and perhaps class. A century ago, even 50 years ago immigrants mostly wanted to fit in, and that meant churches with pews; now we are much more interested in multiculturalism and diversity. This older tendency would probably have been strongest among blue collar immigrants, who were happy that they no longer were too poor to afford pews. The older, Russian parishes in SF, were established by exiled aristocrats who didn’t have a thing to prove, and who were deeply entrenched in the Great Russian way of doing things.

I wonder who founded the various parishes I linked to: exiles or immigrants?

 

[5Loaves]

This older tendency would probably have been strongest among blue collar immigrants, who were happy that they no longer were too poor to afford pews. The older, Russian parishes in SF, were established by exiled aristocrats who didn’t have a thing to prove, and who were deeply entrenched in the Great Russian way of doing things.

This probably is an influence as you say. I know the priest at the Russian Orthodox parish I frequent came from a very poor community of “coal crackers” as he calls them. He told a wonderful story one work day about his family’s parish in PA having the last outhouse in town. That, in the story, had to do with the idea that it seemed quite a disgusting new idea to have toilets inside the building which the municipality was trying to force them to do.