RC who loves orthodox spirituality?

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Hi everyone and thank you SO much for all your responses - this is all very helpful to me…(The OP)

A few answers to questions and then some more questions of my own:

1)One person asked if Ive visited an eastern rite or orthodox church - Ive met, on the byzantine forum, an the eastern rite section of CAF, a lovely woman who has invited me to an eastern rite service…due to a strange summer, involving traveling and unwell family members, and life being a bit chaotic, I have not yet been able to do so…but I will keep in touch with her…

1. I love that idea of icon-writing workshops, and that roman catholics are taking part - will have to look into that!
2. Someone advised checking out certain Saints who have writing and whose lives explored “divinization” or “deification”…I have always been interested in Padre Pio…I would imagine I could safely read up on and explore saints from both the latin/eastern rite AND the orthodox churches safely? (If I “take to” an orthodox saint, who is not a Catholic Saint, is that ok?)
3. John Paul and the “two lungs” quote - did he mean that about the Esatern rite in full communion…or was he incorporating the orthodox too?

Thanks again everyone! Blessings!

Hopefully I can write more later, but to answer the question in point 4, John Paul II’s quoted statement was actuallyour in reference to Catholics becoming familiar with the theology, liturgies, spirituality, etc of the Orthodox Churches, not Eastern Catholicism.

 

[Peter_J]

I notice just searching online though re the Orthodox that this warm, fuzzy “other lung” approach is not necessarily… reciprocated.

I meant to post this yesterday (fortunately I thought of it again a few minutes ago):

Dom Augustine (Whitfield), the abbot of the Monastery of Mount Royal from 1963 until retirement, once remarked to St. John Maximovitch that it was difficult to promote Western Rite Orthodoxy, whereupon the saint replied: “Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was Orthodox for a thousand years”

(as recounted on orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite )

Btw, I have to admit that the “lungs” talk can get a bit fuzzy at times. (I think this is one of many cases of a Pope saying something and then other Catholics taking it and running-with-it, to put it mildly. )

 

[Marie5890]

Im reading the Orthodox Way and the more I learn the more I love…I also love my own RC faith…how much can/should we incorporate in our spirituality from the orthodox?

Thanks!

Zaida,

I am RC by affiliation. But if you were to ask me what reflects my spiritually best, Catholicism or Orthodoxy, the answer is Orthodoxy.

I love the book “Orthodox Way”…I have a Jesus prayer rope, my act of contrition during Reconciliaiton is the Jesus Prayer. The list goes on.

I am drawn to how the Orthodox tend to live with Mystery, more so than the Western need to define and delineate everything.

 

[twf]

OP:
Rest assured that HeartnSoulMan, despite his good intentions, is at odds with the clear teaching of the Magisterium when he equates Catholic spirituality to Latin spirituality. Within the Catholic Church there is a wide spectrum of legitimate spiritualities - Latin (Carmelite, Franciscan, Dominican, etc.), Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, etc. Byzantine spirituality, as lived by our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters, and as lived by the Orthodox when we were still one Church, is just as Catholic as Latin spirituality. Vatican II was very clear that all patrimonies - Western, Eastern, or Oriental - are of equal dignity.

 

[Peter_J]

Zaida,

I am RC by affiliation. But if you were to ask me what reflects my spiritually best, Catholicism or Orthodoxy, the answer is Orthodoxy.

I love the book “Orthodox Way”…I have a Jesus prayer rope, my act of contrition during Reconciliaiton is the Jesus Prayer. The list goes on.

I am drawn to how the Orthodox tend to live with Mystery, more so than the Western need to define and delineate everything.

Interesting, interesting.

Fwiw, I always say that I wouldn’t make the switch to Orthodoxy, but conversely if I had been born into Orthodoxy I wouldn’t make the switch to Catholicism.

Not that anyone asked.

 

[twf]

Zaida,

I am RC by affiliation. But if you were to ask me what reflects my spiritually best, Catholicism or Orthodoxy, the answer is Orthodoxy.

I love the book “Orthodox Way”…I have a Jesus prayer rope, my act of contrition during Reconciliaiton is the Jesus Prayer. The list goes on.

I am drawn to how the Orthodox tend to live with Mystery, more so than the Western need to define and delineate everything.

I’ve seen the Jesus Prayer posted in confessionals as an optional act of contrition.

 

[zaida]

Thank you so much for all of your inspiring answers…Im starting to look a bit into the whole concept of deification, or “theosis” as they say in the west - “partaking in the divine nature” as our catechism says, and looking at it from both and eastern and western angle.

Its wonderful to know I can be a faithful roman catholic, and still appreciate and incorporate some of the beauty I find in the east…

Blessings…

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Thank you so much for all of your inspiring answers…Im starting to look a bit into the whole concept of deification, or “theosis” as they say in the west - “partaking in the divine nature” as our catechism says, and looking at it from both and eastern and western angle.

Its wonderful to know I can be a faithful roman catholic, and still appreciate and incorporate some of the beauty I find in the east…

Blessings…

A great thing to bear in mind is that many of the Church Fathers who speak of “theosis” are also Doctors of the Church: e.g. John Chrysostom, Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzus, etc.

Also bear in mind that the majority of “Orthodox” saints are also revered and even liturgically venerated by their Eastern Catholic counterparts. One of the most glaring examples is St. Gregory Palamas. And, although I don’t know that he’s liturgically venerated by any Eastern Catholics, St. Symeon the New Theologian is also highly revered among Catholics of the Byzantine tradition (and I’ve seen him quoted by a good number of Roman Catholic theologians).

Finally, as others have noted, not all Eastern saints are Byzantine. Many of the Syrian Fathers are also great to read and had huge formative impact on the spirituality of the Byzantine tradition - St. Isaac (the Syrian) of Nineveh and St. Ephrem (the Syrian) of Nisibis (also a Doctor of the Church) come immediately to mind. Remember too that Pope Francis declared St. Gregory Narek - an Assyrian - a Doctor of the Church.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I personally do not think it is insulting; I think that one of the greatest tragedies of Christendom was how the Schism has deprived both the East and the West of the piety, traditions, and unique spiritual expressions of all of the respective Churches.

I also know of many Orthodox who embrace and encourage the study the pre-schism Western fathers (St. Benedict of Nursia, St. Ambrose of Milan, St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory, St. Martin of Tours, etc.), and I even know of some who have spoken warmly of post-schism figures such as Teresa of Ávila.

Yet I am not surprised by your statement that you have seen other Orthodox expressing contrary views.

Trying to avoid too much detail in this post, lest this thread get derailed.

Thanks for your kind words. This sounds more like the Orthodox friend I knew. Once we exchanged books - she gave me Thomas Merton Seven Story Mountain - I gave her Anna Karenina Leo Tolstoy. (Between you and me, she got the better end of that deal! My goodness.) My point is she did read many Catholic writers Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, etc. - early and modern. I thought at that time that the Immaculate Conception meant that Mary was conceived as a virgin. She enlightened me that it referenced that Mary was conceived without sin. Very embarrassing to learn about my Church from an Orthodox.

I am definitely a great devotee of Orthodox spirituality (Gregory of Nyssa, Desert Fathers) and as I stated above, hope to go to a service (or Eastern Catholic) soon. I do say the Jesus prayer a lot - have done for years. I am on board with the two lung theory.

Not to derail the thread, but when searching online I did learn that many of the Orthodox denominations are quite divided in their attitudes toward Patriarch Bartholomew’s ecumenical talks with Pope Francis and moving closer to the Catholic Church. Many major Orthodox denominations are saying he does not represent them in this effort (they threaten to bolt his authority) and that they have not reached a consensus as to their response to this gesture. (You surely know all of this better than I do - just posting it because it surprised me and I don’t think RCs are necessarily aware of this.) I saw one online comment that actually said “we go to Church just to hate the RCC.” It was self-critical - the point I think is that some Orthodox have defined themselves in opposition to the RCC and the bad blood of the past - to lose that in a “merger” is to lose their identity, their raison d’être. It was a criticism of the negative attitude, not an endorsement of it. I also think RCs actually just learn Orthodox spirituality, history and theology - they don’t really experience the state of the actual Orthodox denominations in “real life.” It is a little Quixotic - but then I do the exact same thing with the Protestants too…

 

[CB_Catholic]

I’ve seen the Jesus Prayer posted in confessionals as an optional act of contrition.

I used that for an act of contrition once and the priest told me that that was fine and good, but it is expected also that the penitent express the the desire to resolve to sin no more. That may be implied, but the priest wanted to hear it.

After thinking about it, I decided for myself that it was best to keep within the customs of my own Rite–it is, after all, my heritage, and is what is expected of me in the confessional, although the exact wording of acts of contrition may vary. But I do say the Jesus Prayer very frequently.

 

[twf]

A great thing to bear in mind is that many of the Church Fathers who speak of “theosis” are also Doctors of the Church: e.g. John Chrysostom, Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzus, etc.

Also bear in mind that the majority of “Orthodox” saints are also revered and even liturgically venerated by their Eastern Catholic counterparts. One of the most glaring examples is St. Gregory Palamas. And, although I don’t know that he’s liturgically venerated by any Eastern Catholics, St. Symeon the New Theologian is also highly revered among Catholics of the Byzantine tradition (and I’ve seen him quoted by a good number of Roman Catholic theologians).

Finally, as others have noted, not all Eastern saints are Byzantine. Many of the Syrian Fathers are also great to read and had huge formative impact on the spirituality of the Byzantine tradition - St. Isaac (the Syrian) of Nineveh and St. Ephrem (the Syrian) of Nisibis (also a Doctor of the Church) come immediately to mind. Remember too that Pope Francis declared St. Gregory Narek - an Assyrian - a Doctor of the Church.

I believe St. Gregory Narek is Armenian, not Assyrian.

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks for your kind words. This sounds more like the Orthodox friend I knew. Once we exchanged books - she gave me Thomas Merton Seven Story Mountain - I gave her Anna Karenina Leo Tolstoy. (Between you and me, she got the better end of that deal! My goodness.) My point is she did read many Catholic writers Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, etc. - early and modern. I thought at that time that the Immaculate Conception meant that Mary was conceived as a virgin. She enlightened me that it referenced that Mary was conceived without sin. Very embarrassing to learn about my Church from an Orthodox.

I am definitely a great devotee of Orthodox spirituality (Gregory of Nyssa, Desert Fathers) and as I stated above, hope to go to a service (or Eastern Catholic) soon. I do say the Jesus prayer a lot - have done for years. I am on board with the two lung theory.

Not to derail the thread, but when searching online I did learn that many of the Orthodox denominations are quite divided in their attitudes toward Patriarch Bartholomew’s ecumenical talks with Pope Francis and moving closer to the Catholic Church. Many major Orthodox denominations are saying he does not represent them in this effort (they threaten to bolt his authority) and that they have not reached a consensus as to their response to this gesture. (You surely know all of this better than I do - just posting it because it surprised me and I don’t think RCs are necessarily aware of this.) I saw one online comment that actually said “we go to Church just to hate the RCC.” It was self-critical - the point I think is that some Orthodox have defined themselves in opposition to the RCC and the bad blood of the past - to lose that in a “merger” is to lose their identity, their raison d’être. It was a criticism of the negative attitude, not an endorsement of it. I also think RCs actually just learn Orthodox spirituality, history and theology - they don’t really experience the state of the actual Orthodox denominations in “real life.” It is a little Quixotic - but then I do the exact same thing with the Protestants too…

This has probably been posted on this forum before, but what the heck? It’s a good article from a great (dare I say) *moderate *Orthodox priest: Never the Twain?

I would add comments of my own, but I haven’t the energy.

 

[FollowChrist34]

This has probably been posted on this forum before, but what the heck? It’s a good article from a great (dare I say) *moderate *Orthodox priest: Never the Twain?

I would add comments of my own, but I haven’t the energy.

Thanks for this link, it was very interesting - this is exactly what I suspected. I read somewhere online (I can’t find it now or I would post it) where an Orthodox says that Catholics and Protestants have much more in common in terms of Western culture, history, worship than the RCC and Orthodox. There is an East/West cultural, ethnic divide that is huge; we actually have much less contact with Orthodox than we do with Protestants and have throughout history - we live side by side in the West.

RCs project onto the Orthodox; they don’t really check out their denominations and what’s up with the faithful. My sense is there is to this day a lot of ethnicity and a very “non-Western” culture and thinking - Eastern European to be specific. I also see them as part of the oldest, original Church too, so, somehow more “legit.” The point though is they don’t always see us as “legit.” Many are much more wrapped up in what we do wrong. Another point - I don’t pick up on a lot of emphasis on study or knowledge of Scripture, mainly just prayers, saints and liturgical traditions from certain Eastern European countries - that is the core - and sum - of the worship.

 

[Peter_J]

I read somewhere online (I can’t find it now or I would post it) where an Orthodox says that Catholics and Protestants have much more in common in terms of Western culture, history, worship than the RCC and Orthodox.

Yes, I’ve definitely heard that too, but I don’t put much stock in it. People on all sides have their self-serving biases – you know what I mean if you’ve ever met Roman Catholics who see the Orthodox as some sort of hybrid between Catholic and Protestant. Or, for that matter, Catholics [resp. Anglicans] who say “We’re just like the Orthodox [resp. Catholics].”

 

[FollowChrist34]

Yes, I’ve definitely heard that too, but I don’t put much stock in it. People on all sides are biased – you’ll know what I mean if you’ve ever met Roman Catholics who see the Orthodox as some sort of hybrid between Catholic and Protestant.

I read some fascinating stuff the other day - another thing is that the Orthodox in the US have an influx of Evangelicals (ones who don’t want to go RCC). And many (some?) Os don’t believe in evolution. I was surprised at the fragmentation too between the Russian derived denominations and the Greek ones - that still holds. Also there is not a lot of regulatory activity over the bishops or clergy - not really clear who is minding the store - and how well that is being done varies quite a bit; the authentic “religiousness” of the clergy is not consistent, but that is true for all of Christianity. I guess we are kind of off topic, sort of…I do love icons anyway I have two of Mary up on my walls.

 

[twf]

Thanks for this link, it was very interesting - this is exactly what I suspected. I read somewhere online (I can’t find it now or I would post it) where an Orthodox says that Catholics and Protestants have much more in common in terms of Western culture, history, worship than the RCC and Orthodox. There is an East/West cultural, ethnic divide that is huge; we actually have much less contact with Orthodox than we do with Protestants and have throughout history - we live side by side in the West.

RCs project onto the Orthodox; they don’t really check out their denominations and what’s up with the faithful. My sense is there is to this day a lot of ethnicity and a very “non-Western” culture and thinking - Eastern European to be specific. I also see them as part of the oldest, original Church too, so, somehow more “legit.” The point though is they don’t always see us as “legit.” Many are much more wrapped up in what we do wrong. Another point - I don’t pick up on a lot of emphasis on study or knowledge of Scripture, mainly just prayers, saints and liturgical traditions from certain Eastern European countries - that is the core - and sum - of the worship.

Yeah, many Orthodox feel this way. I like Peter don’t buy it. Are Latin Catholics culturally and philosophically closer to high church protestants (Anglicans, Lutherans etc) than they are to Eastern Orthodox? Probably. But when you throw in evangelicals and Pentecostals I don’t buy it for a moment. I was raised Evangelical, am now a practicing Catholic, and have relatives who are practicing Orthodox. Trust me, From personal conversations with my Orthodox relatives, I can relate to them in terms of the fundamentals of the faith and even day to day spiritual life way more than I can to my still evangelical relatives. Once we get past the different theological “languages”, if you will, we have so much common ground with the Orthodox that we simply don’t have with “low church” protestants. For example, take the Eucharist. Forget for a moment the different theologies and approaches that divide Latins and Eastern Christians. At the end of the day we both bow down before what appears to be bread and wine in adoration knowing we are truly encountering the Risen Christ. For evangelicals and Pentecostals, on the other hand, it’s just a symbol. Nothing more. The height of worship for both CAtholics and Orthodox (and high church protestants for that matter) is the eucharistic liturgy. Evangelicals and Pentecostals reject the very concept. From that one perspective alone the common ground should be immense. Taking a step back, we both emphasize the incarnation: God became flesh. And it is from this incarnational theology, for both CAtholics and Orthodox, that everything else falls into place: the sacraments, the liturgy, the saints, icons, theosis, the Blessed Virgin, etc. Yes there are differences but at the core of what we both believe there is common ground that we simply cannot find with low church Protestants. Not all Orthodox would agree, but my relatives sure do.
Also - from a Catholic perspective, Orthodox theology and spirituality and Latin theology and spirituality is definitely compatible - otherwise there wouldn’t be Eastern CAtholics. On the other hand, evangelical and Pentecostal theology, where it differs from Catholicism, is heretical from a catholic standpoint.

 

[babochka]

I read some fascinating stuff the other day - another thing is that the Orthodox in the US have an influx of Evangelicals (ones who don’t want to go RCC). And many (some?) Os don’t believe in evolution. I was surprised at the fragmentation too between the Russian derived denominations and the Greek ones - that still holds. Also there is not a lot of regulatory activity over the bishops or clergy - not really clear who is minding the store - and how well that is being done varies quite a bit; the authentic “religiousness” of the clergy is not consistent - but that is true for all of Christianity. I guess we are kind of off topic, sort of…I do love icons anyway I have two of Mary up on my walls.

The influence of former Evangelicals in the Orthodox Churches in the U.S. (particularly the OCA and Antiochian churches) is significant and accounts for a great deal of anti-Catholicism coming out of them. By and large, you won’t find that coming from the Greek church, or any church that is still mostly ethnic.

Worldwide, Catholic and Orthodox views of each other are greatly affected by the political history of the place. In Eastern Europe, recent history under Communism and martyrs on both sides, has left Greek Catholics deeply wounded and suspicious of the Orthodox, and vice-versa. In the Middle East, where apostolic Christians have preserved the faith side-by-side among Muslims for centuries, relations between Catholics and Orthodox are extremely close, even to the point of inter-communion in some circumstances.

My parish participates in a unique event. Each year, for 26 years now, we hold a fundraiser/food festival. The sponsor is the Easter Christian Women’s Association. Our member churches are Greek Orthodox, OCA, Egyptian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Chaldean Catholic, Ruthenian Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Coptic Orthodox, and Armenian Orthodox. We pray together at our meetings, priests of each tradition bless the event together before we begin. This is my experience with the Orthodox, internet polemics notwithstanding.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Yeah, many Orthodox feel this way. I like Peter don’t buy it. Are Latin Catholics culturally and philosophically closer to high church protestants (Anglicans, Lutherans etc) than they are to Eastern Orthodox? Probably. But when you throw in evangelicals and Pentecostals I don’t buy it for a moment. I was raised Evangelical, am now a practicing Catholic, and have relatives who are practicing Orthodox. Trust me, From personal conversations with my Orthodox relatives, I can relate to them in terms of the fundamentals of the faith and even day to day spiritual life way more than I can to my still evangelical relatives. Once we get past the different theological “languages”, if you will, we have so much common ground with the Orthodox that we simply don’t have with “low church” protestants. For example, take the Eucharist. Forget for a moment the different theologies and approaches that divide Latins and Eastern Christians. At the end of the day we both bow down before what appears to be bread and wine in adoration knowing we are truly encountering the Risen Christ. For evangelicals and Pentecostals, on the other hand, it’s just a symbol. Nothing more. The height of worship for both CAtholics and Orthodox (and high church protestants for that matter) is the eucharistic liturgy. Evangelicals and Pentecostals reject the very concept. From that one perspective alone the common ground should be immense. Taking a step back, we both emphasize the incarnation: God became flesh. And it is from this incarnational theology, for both CAtholics and Orthodox, that everything else falls into place: the sacraments, the liturgy, the saints, icons, theosis, the Blessed Virgin, etc. Yes there are differences but at the core of what we both believe there is common ground that we simply cannot find with low church Protestants. Not all Orthodox would agree, but my relatives sure do.
Also - from a Catholic perspective, Orthodox theology and spirituality and Latin theology and spirituality is definitely compatible - otherwise there wouldn’t be Eastern CAtholics. On the other hand, evangelical and Pentecostal theology, where it differs from Catholicism, is heretical from a catholic standpoint.

Wonderful. I am delighted to hear this - speaking as a Catholic I can relate to high Protestants very well and also the Orthodox as outlined here. I guess I was just taken aback but some stuff I read the other day. This post is very in line with what I have thought for years.

 

[FollowChrist34]

The influence of former Evangelicals in the Orthodox Churches in the U.S. (particularly the OCA and Antiochian churches) is significant and accounts for a great deal of anti-Catholicism coming out of them. By and large, you won’t find that coming from the Greek church, or any church that is still mostly ethnic.

Thanks for the info. So it sounds like I am better off steering toward Greek than Russian - at least generally speaking, here in the US. (I just want to go to a service as a visitor.) And I am glad to hear the polemics are more Internet than reality.

 

[chimo]

Im reading the Orthodox Way and the more I learn the more I love…I also love my own RC faith…how much can/should we incorporate in our spirituality from the orthodox?

Thanks!

It will help if you receive an answer from the Orthodox. If there is anyone who knows more about the Orthodox it will be the Orthodox. Your quest to know more is an invitation of the Holy Spirit. Since it is the Holy Spirit who has developed both Churches it must be Him who has put in our hearts this desire to know more and to pick it from a Church which is not part of our personal lives. This invitation from the Holy Spirit is addressed to both the Catholic and the Orthodox. I have accumulated Catholic worship, doctrine and devotion to be part of my life just as you have chosen to accumulate the Orthodox to be part of your life. There is an excellent reason why the Holy Spirit has developed the Catholic and Orthodox Churches to be different yet containing the same Apostolic ethos. He had developed them to have differences in order to help complete the unity which the Holy Spirit desires. If the Holy Spirit had not made us different there would have been no desire to know more. There are many spirituality from both Churches that will enhance our longing to know more. The Holy Spirit is waiting for us to have an open mind to what He has given to both Churches. It is good you are discovering this from the Catholic side and it is good whenever an Orthodox decides to do this as well. Perhaps this will bring us to unity more than anything else.