RCC Decision Not to Recognize LDS Baptism!

[zerinus]

Part of the decision NOT to recognize LDS baptism probably has to do with what Mormons believe vis-a-vis Catholics.

Since ‘godhood’ is a major part of your church (are my quotes accurate??) I wanted to know if this idea was part and parcel of your baptism rite?

Gee, I thought I already said that in my original post. Sorry

Robert

When I started this thread I pointed to a post on my Blog. Did you read that post?

zerinus

 

[jmcrae]

You must have a very short memory. You have posted more than 6000 posts, so you have been here a long time; and you ought to know that this subject has been broght up here many times before, and not by me.

zerinus

If so (and I have not encountered such threads in my wanderings) why not reply to those threads, instead of starting up a new one of your own that the participants in these other alleged threads might not even see?

 

[zerinus]

If so (and I have not encountered such threads in my wanderings) why not reply to those threads, instead of starting up a new one of your own that the participants in these other alleged threads might not even see?

Those threads occured a while ago. I started this thread in order to draw attention to my comprehensive reply to all the issues and questions that had previously been raised.

zerinus

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

When I started this thread I pointed to a post on my Blog. Did you read that post?

zerinus

Zerinus,

I went to your site and read your blog.

There is NO, absolutely NO statement which addresses my question.

Well, could you answer it now??

Robert

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus,

I went to your site and read your blog.

There is NO, absolutely NO statement which addresses my question.

Well, could you answer it now??

Robert

Sorry, but it does.You are pointing to what you consider to be theological differences be the LDS and Catholic Churches on the subject of the Deity, and you are saying that warrents the Catholic Church to not recognize LDS baptism. If you read that blog post carefully enough, you should have noticed that by the admission of Catholic sources, doctrinal differences alone are not sufficient grounds for contesting the validity of LDS (or any other church’s) baptism. That is the answser to your question.

zerinus

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Sorry, but it does.You are pointing to what you consider to be theological differences be the LDS and Catholic Churches on the subject of the Deity, and you are saying that warrents the Catholic Church to not recognize LDS baptism. If you read that blog post carefully enough, you should have noticed that by the admission of Catholic sources, doctrinal differences alone are not sufficient grounds for contesting the validity of LDS (or any other church’s) baptism. That is the answser to your question.

zerinus

Mercy me!

The question was simple: in the Mormon rite for baptism is there any reference to Mormon belief in ‘godhood’?

I have NO idea where you got that “admission of Catholic sources” stuff. Nor do I see the relevance to my question.

What’s wrong with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’?

Robert

 

[hosemonkey]

Mercy me!

The question was simple: in the Mormon rite for baptism is there any reference to Mormon belief in ‘godhood’?

I have NO idea where you got that “admission of Catholic sources” stuff. Nor do I see the relevance to my question.

What’s wrong with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’?

Robert

It is quite impossible for zerinus to answer a question “yes or no.”

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

I guess so.

He wants everyone to read his blog, but when questions are asked, he disappears.

Robert

 

[hosemonkey]

I guess so.

He wants everyone to read his blog, but when questions are asked, he disappears.

Robert

Reading his blog makes my head hurt. As far as I am concerned, if he can’t defend himself here, I am not going to waste my time with his loaded blog.

 

[zerinus]

Mercy me!

The question was simple: in the Mormon rite for baptism is there any reference to Mormon belief in ‘godhood’?

I have NO idea where you got that “admission of Catholic sources” stuff. Nor do I see the relevance to my question.

What’s wrong with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’?

Robert

The Mormon formula for baptism is as follows: "Having been comissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen". Nothing further is added to that or taken away. Does that answer your question?

zerinus

 

[hosemonkey]

The Mormon formula for baptism is as follows: "Having been comissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen". Nothing further is added to that or taken away. Does that answer your question?

zerinus

Whew!
Define “Father”
Define “Son”
Define “Holy Ghost”

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

The Mormon formula for baptism is as follows: "Having been comissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen".

Nothing further is added to that or taken away. Does that answer your question?

zerinus

Yes, it does. And thank you.

Now its all clear to me. The Mormon baptism rites imitates the Catholic rite but their theology is not Christian.

That’s why Rome (and other churches which are Christian denomination) does not recognize Mormon baptisms as valid.

Thanks Zerinus.

Robert

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mercy me!

The question was simple: in the Mormon rite for baptism is there any reference to Mormon belief in ‘godhood’?

I have NO idea where you got that “admission of Catholic sources” stuff. Nor do I see the relevance to my question.

What’s wrong with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’?

Robert

“Baptism rite” is not a term familiar to mormons. I am not really sure what you mean by it myself. If you mean the actual prayer that is said while a person is being baptized, that is here:

lightplanet.com/mormons/priesthood/ordinances/baptismal_prayer.html

There really isn’t a formal process that leads up to a baptism. People are taught basic mormon beliefs. Some are taught about becoming God, some are not.

But, a mormon baptism is the first step (after birth) in the mormon teaching of “eternal progression”. You can’t separate the mormon belief in “eternal progression”, aka becoming a god, from a mormon baptism.

But a reference to becoming a God is not a part of the baptism itself.

 

[zerinus]

Yes, it does. And thank you.

Now its all clear to me. The Mormon baptism rites imitates the Catholic rite but their theology is not Christian.

That’s why Rome (and other churches which are Christian denomination) does not recognize Mormon baptisms as valid.

Thanks Zerinus.

Robert

There is an answer to that, and it was given in my blog. If you want to carry on an intelligent discussion, read that, and tell me why you disagree with it.

zerinus

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Part of your problem is evident in your blog, You write:

Interestingly, the Catholic Church in its official statement published on the Vatican website mentioned above, does not attempt to give a reason, or a theological explanation for its decision; …

You seem to be under the impression that this is some kind of a contest of ideas. No, it is a declaration on a matter of faith – the nature of a sacrament – and as such is protected from error.

The whole idea that there’s a case to be made just isn’t valid. The word has been given. In this matter, it’s the end of the story, no matter whose craw it may stick in.

The Magisterium does not owe us Catholics an explanation on this declaration. What makes you think a Mormon can demand one, or even reasonably expect one when Catholics do not expect one, and need not have one?

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[zerinus]

Part of your problem is evident in your blog, You write:

Interestingly, the Catholic Church in its official statement published on the Vatican website mentioned above, does not attempt to give a reason, or a theological explanation for its decision; …

You seem to be under the impression that this is some kind of a contest of ideas. No, it is a declaration on a matter of faith – the nature of a sacrament – and as such is protected from error.

The Magisterium does not owe us Catholics an explanation on this declaration. What makes you think a Mormon can demand one, or even reasonably expect one when Catholics do not expect one, and need not have one?

Blessings,

Gerry

I am not “demanding” anything. Just as you or your church have the right to make any decision they like, and publish it on their website with or without an explanation; I too reserve the right to look at that decision, examine it in the light of its historical context, and the evidences and the circumstances surrounding it, and come to a conclusion about it according to my understanding case, and publish it in my Blog if I want to! That is what I have done! Do you have any problem with that?

zerinus

 

[PaulDupre]

LDS Church has no quarrel with the Catholic Church.

Except that every missionary effort starts out with the declaration that our creed is an “abomination” and all of us who profess it are “corrupt”. Except that the LDS Church has always taught that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon and that the protestant communities are our harlot daughters. Except that TBMs like you call us “apostates” (a misuse of the term, btw).

Other than that, no problem!

Abomination: a filthy, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.

Corrupt: 1. guilty of dishonest practices, as bribery; lacking integrity; crooked: a corrupt judge.
2. debased in character; depraved; perverted; wicked; evil

What part of our creed is filthy, shameful and detestable, Z? And what about it makes us debased, depraved, perverted and wicked?

 

[Hellisreal]

Sounds friendly enough to me,

Do they also think we are the WOB?
Or just anyone who is not Mormon?

Except that every missionary effort starts out with the declaration that our creed is an “abomination” and all of us who profess it are “corrupt”. Except that the LDS Church has always taught that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon and that the protestant communities are our harlot daughters. Except that TBMs like you call us “apostates” (a misuse of the term, btw).

Other than that, no problem!

Abomination: a filthy, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.

Corrupt: 1. guilty of dishonest practices, as bribery; lacking integrity; crooked: a corrupt judge.
2. debased in character; depraved; perverted; wicked; evil

What part of our creed is filthy, shameful and detestable, Z? And what about it makes us debased, depraved, perverted and wicked?

 

[PaulDupre]

Sounds friendly enough to me,

Do they also think we are the WOB?
Or just anyone who is not Mormon?

The Catholic Church is the only one that meets the Book of Mormon’s description of The Great and Abominable Church. Then there are the quotes from Mormon leaders:

"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church [the Catholic Church] is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters.’

• Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811

“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the Lord denounces… as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act.”

• Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

“She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, “The whore of all the earth,” making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out a sortie of excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated [the Catholic Church], and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth”

• Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346

God bless,
Paul

 

[Hellisreal]

Thank you Paul,

For the cold hard facts.

Ouch!