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zerinus
Guest
Read all about it in my latest blog!
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/08/rcc-not-recognizing-lds-baptism.html
zerinus
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/08/rcc-not-recognizing-lds-baptism.html
zerinus
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Ahimsa
Guest
Oh, youāre Mormon. I thought you were Catholic.Read all about it in my latest blog!
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/08/rcc-not-recognizing-lds-baptism.html
zerinus
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Philothea53
Guest
For someone who says they donāt care, you sure did spend a lot of time writing about it. Methinks thou doth protest too much.
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Dauphin
Guest
āTherefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spiritā - Matthew 28:19
Note that Christ says āthe nameā not āthe namesā. There is one God in three persons. If a baptism is not performed in the name of a single trinitarian God, it does not follow the correct form. It must be invalid.
catholic.com/library/Trinitarian_Baptism.asp
Note that Christ says āthe nameā not āthe namesā. There is one God in three persons. If a baptism is not performed in the name of a single trinitarian God, it does not follow the correct form. It must be invalid.
catholic.com/library/Trinitarian_Baptism.asp
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Philothea53
Guest
Ah, dauphin, he knows better. The witing he did on his blog ended with his own leaders saying how if one left the Mormons and got baptized elsewhere they would have to be re-baptized as Mormons if they returned. They donāt recognize anyone elseās baptism! Yet he writes this long blog entry about how it really doesnāt matter to him that WE wonāt accept their baptism. Heās just trying to find something that we canāt immediately shoot down.
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Fuerza
Guest
This really isnāt anyting new. The Catholic Church has never recognized LDS baptism and never will unless your belief on the Trinity changes.
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ApostateRLDS
Guest
Personnaly, I donāt know why any Mormon would spend so much time obsessing about what the Catholic Church teaches, or believes. To them weāre the Whore of Babylon.
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xmydreamsfadex
Guest
i love āthe whore of babylonā then!
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Brain
Guest
Well, Mormons donāt intend to do what the Church does, do they. They donāt believe in original sin so they donāt intend to wash it away.
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ApostateRLDS
Guest
Way back in 1992, when we were going through the RCIA process, one of our Priests let me know that the Church didnāt recognize LDS baptisms; anyone who was converting from the LDS faith would have to be re-baptized. However, since I was RLDS I had the choice as to whether I would be re-baptized or not. From what I remember, it was up to the Diocese whether or not I had to be re-baptized or not since there were no clear-cut guidelines about RLDS baptisms, and the Diocese left it up to me.
I chose to be re-baptized in to the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I chose to be re-baptized in to the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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LittleDeb
Guest
This is really old news. I am not sure why it was important speak about it now. But to each his own I guess.
The one part I found slightly humorous in the blog was the statement that the Catholic Church āchanged its ruling at the behest of the powerful protestant churches in the US.ā (paraphrased) That did make me laugh a little.
The real reason for the ruling was that there were enough former LDS entering the Church that a true understanding of the LDS beliefs on the Trinity were examined. The LDS church is small enough to have remained under the radar. Most people just thought that their beliefs were similar to a basic Protestant understanding. It was the former LDS themselves who really asked for the examination of their former faith.
I was a little annoyed that in the blog it stated that āProtestant churches have called the Catholic Church the whore of Babylon.ā Some people who happen to be Protestant have called the Catholic Church such a name, but it is a stretch to say that āthe churchesā themselves have called us that. On the other hand, the LDS church has called us āapostateā and our creed an āabominationā in official church documents.
Usually I try to overlook that little fact in dialogue with LDS persons. However this blog points out that I probably shouldnāt be letting it go that easily. Thanks, yet again, Zerinus.
You have managed to drive a bigger wedge in my efforts at a deeper understanding of LDS beliefs.
The one part I found slightly humorous in the blog was the statement that the Catholic Church āchanged its ruling at the behest of the powerful protestant churches in the US.ā (paraphrased) That did make me laugh a little.
The real reason for the ruling was that there were enough former LDS entering the Church that a true understanding of the LDS beliefs on the Trinity were examined. The LDS church is small enough to have remained under the radar. Most people just thought that their beliefs were similar to a basic Protestant understanding. It was the former LDS themselves who really asked for the examination of their former faith.
I was a little annoyed that in the blog it stated that āProtestant churches have called the Catholic Church the whore of Babylon.ā Some people who happen to be Protestant have called the Catholic Church such a name, but it is a stretch to say that āthe churchesā themselves have called us that. On the other hand, the LDS church has called us āapostateā and our creed an āabominationā in official church documents.
Usually I try to overlook that little fact in dialogue with LDS persons. However this blog points out that I probably shouldnāt be letting it go that easily. Thanks, yet again, Zerinus.
You have managed to drive a bigger wedge in my efforts at a deeper understanding of LDS beliefs.
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Hijikata
Guest
Very nice post. I was writing out a response close to this, and accidentally closed my browser and saw this pop up.This is really old news. I am not sure why it was important speak about it now. But to each his own I guess.
The one part I found slightly humorous in the blog was the statement that the Catholic Church āchanged its ruling at the behest of the powerful protestant churches in the US.ā (paraphrased) That did make me laugh a little.
The real reason for the ruling was that there were enough former LDS entering the Church that a true understanding of the LDS beliefs on the Trinity were examined. The LDS church is small enough to have remained under the radar. Most people just thought that their beliefs were similar to a basic Protestant understanding. It was the former LDS themselves who really asked for the examination of their former faith.
I was a little annoyed that in the blog it stated that āProtestant churches have called the Catholic Church the whore of Babylon.ā Some people who happen to be Protestant have called the Catholic Church such a name, but it is a stretch to say that āthe churchesā themselves have called us that. On the other hand, the LDS church has called us āapostateā and our creed an āabominationā in official church documents.
Usually I try to overlook that little fact in dialogue with LDS persons. However this blog points out that I probably shouldnāt be letting it go that easily. Thanks, yet again, Zerinus.
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Brian_Ingram
Guest
THE QUESTION OF THE VALIDITY OF BAPTISM CONFERRED IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTSRead all about it in my latest blog!
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/08/rcc-not-recognizing-lds-baptism.html
zerinus
Fr Luis Ladaria, S.J. **ā¦ "**We have seen that in the texts of the Magisterium on Baptism there is a reference to the invocation of the Trinity (to the sources already mentioned, the Fourth Lateran Council could be added here [DH 8021). The formula used by the Mormons might seem at first sight to be a Trinitarian formula. The text states: *āBeing commissioned by Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (cf. D&C 20:73). The similarities with the formula used by the Catholic Church are at first sight obvious, but in reality they are only apparent. There is not in fact a fundamental doctrinal agreement. There is not a true invocation of the Trinity because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, according to the Church of Jesus Christ *of Latter-day Saints, *are not the three persons in which subsists the one Godhead, but three gods who form one divinity. One is different from the other, even though they exist in perfect harmony (Joseph F. Smith, ed., *Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith *[TPJSI,Salt Lake City: Desert Book, 1976, p. 372). The very word divinity has only a functional, not a substantial content, because the divinity originates when the three gods decided to unite and form the divinity to bring about human salvation (*Encyclopaedia of Mormonism [EM], New York: Macmillan, 1992, cf. Vol. 2, p. 552). This divinity and man share the same nature and they are substantially equal. God the Father is an exalted man, native of another planet, who has acquired his divine status through a death similar to that of human beings, the necessary wayto divinization (cf. TPJS, pp.345-346). God the Father has relatives and this is explained by the doctrine of infinite regression of the gods who initially weremortal (cf. TPJS, p. 373). God the Father has a wife, the Heavenly Mother, with whom he shares the responsibility of creation. They procreate sons in the spiritual world. Their firstborn is Jesus Christ, equal to all men, who has acquired his divinity in a pre-mortal existence. Even the Holy Spirit is the son of heavenly parents. The Son and the Holy Spirit were procreated after the beginning of the creation of the world known to us (cf. EM, Vol. 2, p. 961). Four gods are directly responsible for the universe, three of whom have established a covenant and thus form the divinity.
As is easily seen, to the similarity of titles there does not correspond in any way a doctrinal content which can lead to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The words Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have for the Mormons a meaning totally different from the Christian meaning. The differences are so great that one cannot even consider that this doctrine is a heresy which emerged out of a false understanding of the Christian doctrine. The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix. We do not find ourselves, therefore, before the case of the validity of Baptism administered by heretics, affirmed already from the first Christian centuries, nor of Baptism conferred in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, as noted in Canon 869 Ā§2.ā
Taken from:
LāOsservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
1 August 2001, page 4
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zerinus
Guest
Actually, that is not true. The reason why I wrote that blog is because this subject had come up many times before on this board. Many Catholic posters had cited that decision by the Catholic Church with glee as though it made a statement about the LDS Church. It was important that they should be made aware that it actually makes a statement about the incongruence and disarray of the Catholic Church.
zerinus
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zerinus
Guest
Not true! I have shown in my blog how representation was made to the Catholic Church nine years previous to that decision being made to deny recognition to LDS baptism. But the Catholic Church, after careful examination of all the facts, decided against it. The truth is that doctrinal and theological differences have never been considered by the Catholic Church a sufficient justification for refusing to acknowledge another churchās baptism.
Wrong again! It is the founders of Protestantism, Luther and Calvin and all the rest that have called the Catholic Church those names, and worse; and their sister churches have followed suit.
Give me a break.Usually I try to overlook that little fact in dialogue with LDS persons. However this blog points out that I probably shouldnāt be letting it go that easily. Thanks, yet again, Zerinus.
zerinus
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zerinus
Guest
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spiritā (cf. D&C 20:73). The similarities with the formula used by the Catholic Church are at first sight obvious, but in reality they are only apparent. There is not in fact a fundamental doctrinal agreement.
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That is where that article starts going wrong. I had already discussed this article in my blog. Didnāt you read it? At the start of this article he spends four lengthy paragraphs explaining how doctrinal disagreement is not and has never been a valid reason for no acknowledging another churchās baptism; and then he turns around and tries to invalidate LDS baptism on the basis of a doctrinal disagreement. In my English dictionary that kind of talk is called hypocrisy and dishonesty.
If that be a valid reason, then the RCC should also not recognise the validity of baptisms of pre-Nicene churches, because they were all subordinationists; nor of the Arians, because they didnāt believe in the divinity of Christ altogether, and denied that the Father and the Son were āof the same substanceā. But they do.
zerinus
po18guy
Well-known member
And, apparently, the LDS doesnāt even recognize their own baptism! If the RCC baptism ruins it, just how powerful/valid was it in the first place?
p.s. A young Mormon woman has come to me, expressing dissatisfaction with her faith. Since her Grandmother, whom she loved very much, was Catholic, she has agreed to come to mass! She has a seeking heart.
p.p.s. My wifeās broken foot wouldnāt heal for months. The orthopedic doctor gave up and referred her to a podiatrist. During her first visit, the Doctor revealed to her that he is Mormon, but realizes it is not the true faith for him and his children. He is investigating Catholicism.
Praise God! Pray for them, please.
Christās peace.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
Catholic Church teaches that validity of baptism depends on its form and matter. The correct form is and has always been the Trinitarian formula. This is why the Evangelical baptism is valid but Mormon baptism isnāt. This is not a discrimination against Mormons, itās simply a matter of truth and salvation of your souls.Read all about it in my latest blog!
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/08/rcc-not-recognizing-lds-baptism.html
zerinus
But why would you care about this? If you donāt believe in the Trinitarian baptism and the Church why would you care whether we reject it or not?
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zerinus
Guest
LDS uses the Trinitarian formula. Try reading the blog before replying to it, and save yourself and us the trouble.
zerinus
PS. It looks like the post was deleted! Nevermind.
PPS. The poster was GandalfTheWhite
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GandalfTheWhite
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My bad, sorry.
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