RCC Decision Not to Recognize LDS Baptism!

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zerinus said:
That is not good enough! If it is a matter of guesswork, then I think that my guesses are as good as anybody else’s—and I have explained in my blog what my guess is. I think that I have built a good case for my guesses.

Which “Christ’s Church”? The Catholic Church? The Protestants reject that too. How come their baptisms are accepted?

zerinus
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CAUTION!!!: Check Mormon definitions before speaking with them. We are debating in two different languages here.
  1. Mormons are clearly free to believe whatever is in their book. That does not make it true.
  2. PLEASE define the Mormon version of the “Trinitarian formula”. If you do honestly, I’ll bet Christ ends up being strictly human. You can’t baptize in man’s name. Well, you can. It’s just that we call it a shower.
  3. True Christians believe in the Divinity of Christ. As such, all Trinitarian baptisms by those denominations are valid. They are truly Christian, and part of the body of Christ.
  4. The Mormon church, by light of their denial of Christ’s Divinity, have separated themselves from Christianity. Please do not blame Christians for your self-imposed exile
We pray for, and celebrate the return of Mormons to salvation through their confession of Christ as Divine. However, this means they must “apostacize” and become true Christian-thus suffering rejection by and loss of their blood relatives and associates in the Mormon church. That alone keeps many from the truth. We pray for you.
 
po18guy said:
CAUTION!!!: Check Mormon definitions before speaking with them. We are debating in two different languages here.
  1. Mormons are clearly free to believe whatever is in their book. That does not make it true.
  2. PLEASE define the Mormon version of the “Trinitarian formula”. If you do honestly, I’ll bet Christ ends up being strictly human. You can’t baptize in man’s name. Well, you can. It’s just that we call it a shower.
  3. True Christians believe in the Divinity of Christ. As such, all Trinitarian baptisms by those denominations are valid. They are truly Christian, and part of the body of Christ.
  4. The Mormon church, by light of their denial of Christ’s Divinity, have separated themselves from Christianity. Please do not blame Christians for your self-imposed exile
We pray for, and celebrate the return of Mormons to salvation through their confession of Christ as Divine. However, this means they must “apostacize” and become true Christian-thus suffering rejection by and loss of their blood relatives and associates in the Mormon church. That alone keeps many from the truth. We pray for you.
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A bigger idiot!
  1. Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.
  2. The Catholic Church accepts paptism by an atheist (we don’t).
zerinus
 
zerinus said:
What an idiot.

zerinus
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Zerinus, that is a very uncharitable comment. In spite of your defense of the indefensible, nobody here has called you an idiot. Whatever their private opinion of you happens to be, you have the right to follow your own path, no matter how wierd or futile. Squirlley perhaps, paranoid, maybe, deluded,probably…but not an idiot. Shame on you, Zerinus. I and my fellow monkeys are deeply offended.
 
zerinus said:
A bigger idiot!
  1. Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.
  2. The Catholic Church accepts paptism by an atheist (we don’t).
zerinus
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Zerinus, Zerinus, chill out. You are starting to sputter again. Remember what I prescribed last time? A stiff Rum and Coke, sip it slowly and repeat after me “I DO believe in Joseph Smith, I DO believe in Joseph Smith.” You’ll feel better.
 
hosemonkey said:
Notice that Zerinus once again cites mormon “scripture” to bolster his allegations. Zerinus, mormon “scriptures” have the same vaue as the old Soviet ruble. They were worthless outside of the Soviet Union. Mormon “scripture” is worthless outside the mormon organization. No one accepts them as genuine, they are fabrications.:cool:
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Bwaahahahahahaha!!! I can see “them” now, hands clapped over ears, eyes slammed shut, shouting “NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH…”) If they only knew the truth, they would smoke that book, toss themselves at the feet of Christ and beg for forgiveness!

And, you know what? They would receive it. 👍
 
A bigger idiot!
Code: 
1. Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

2. The Catholic Church accepts paptism by an atheist (we don't).
zerinus

Zerinus, I don’t think that the Catholic Church does
“PAPTISM”.

“Papism” maybe, “Baptism” for sure, but no “paptism.”

Did you misspell?😃
 
zerinus said:
A bigger idiot!
  1. Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.
  2. The Catholic Church accepts paptism by an atheist (we don’t).
zerinus
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The problem, Z, is that Mormons have redefined the word “divinity” (along with nearly every other religious term). To us, only one being is divine, and that is God. God is uncreated, never-changing, was always God and could never be anything else but God.

Your Heavenly Father used to be a mere mortal human. He worked his way up to your idea of “godhood”. Your Jesus is a created being who was born as a spirit-child of the aforementioned Heavenly Father, prior to which he was not God either, but a mere “intelligence” like the rest of us. Your gods are no different than you are; they just started on the path to godhood ahead of you.

So outside of the crazy world of Smithism, your gods do not meet the universally accepted Christian definition of “divine”. That’s why we say that you Mormons reject the divinity of Jesus.

I know you’d like to worship the true God. He’s waiting for you at your local Catholic Church.

Paul
 
PaulDupre said:
The problem, Z, is that Mormons have redefined the word “divinity” (along with nearly every other religious term). To us, only one being is divine, and that is God. God is uncreated, never-changing, was always God and could never be anything else but God.

Your Heavenly Father used to be a mere mortal human. He worked his way up to your idea of “godhood”. Your Jesus is a created being who was born as a spirit-child of the aforementioned Heavenly Father, prior to which he was not God either, but a mere “intelligence” like the rest of us. Your gods are no different than you are; they just started on the path to godhood ahead of you.

So outside of the crazy world of Smithism, your gods do not meet the universally accepted Christian definition of “divine”. That’s why we say that you Mormons reject the divinity of Jesus.

I know you’d like to worship the true God. He’s waiting for you at your local Catholic Church.

Paul
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zerinus said:
A bigger idiot!
  1. Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.
  2. The Catholic Church accepts paptism by an atheist (we don’t).
zerinus
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Hey, I got a promotion! I’m on my way to highest idiot heaven! I’ll be looking for a little something in my next check!

But seriously, there is secular and archaeological history for the peoples, civilizations and actions of all in the Christian bible. Put up or silently contemplate!

Come to mass-see the truth-be in His presence.
 
PaulDupre said:
The problem, Z, is that Mormons have redefined the word “divinity” (along with nearly every other religious term). To us, only one being is divine, and that is God. God is uncreated, never-changing, was always God and could never be anything else but God.

Your Heavenly Father used to be a mere mortal human. He worked his way up to your idea of “godhood”. Your Jesus is a created being who was born as a spirit-child of the aforementioned Heavenly Father, prior to which he was not God either, but a mere “intelligence” like the rest of us. Your gods are no different than you are; they just started on the path to godhood ahead of you.

So outside of the crazy world of Smithism, your gods do not meet the universally accepted Christian definition of “divine”. That’s why we say that you Mormons reject the divinity of Jesus.

I know you’d like to worship the true God. He’s waiting for you at your local Catholic Church.

Paul
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You missed! Too bad. I have already answerd that in my blog:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

zerinus
 
Zerinus,
excuse my direct approach, but we really don’t appreciate your tone nor language around here. If you think that you triumphed the Catholic Church and the Pope with your blog post and that this somehow authorises you to talk like that then you can just stop posting right away. In the end you will not accomplish anything. The Catholics around here are knowledgeable enough to convert to Mormonism.

In Christ,
~G
 
zerinus said:
…The Catholic Church accepts paptism by an atheist (we don’t)…
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I presume you mean baptism.

For valid baptism as recognized by the Catholic Church, the following are required:
  1. Valid matter: water. Under normal circumstances the ordinary minister of baptism (a bishop, priest, or deacon) will bless the water as part of the baptismal ritual, but in extreme circumstances (such as imminent death) any water may be used and any person may minister the sacrament.
As to the water, it is most fitting that clean, pure water be used but in an emergency lacking such, any available water may be used. Contaminants in the water, if unavoiadable, do not invalidate the matter as long as the water is still considered to be water but not if it is considered to be a different substance to which water is merely an ingredient. Thus dirty water or sea water may be used in an emergency if that is what is available, but milk or Coca-Cola are not water and may not be used even though both contain water. The water may be applied by pouring on the head or by immersion. Pouring would probably be done in most emergency baptisms.

As to the extraordinary minister of baptism in an emergency situation, if a bishop, priest or deacon is not available it would be best that at least a Catholic layman in good standing administer the baptism. But if even this is not possible, a baptized non-Catholic Christian or an unbaptized person may administer the baptism, even an atheist. More on that later. The only person who may not administer an emergency baptism is the person to be baptized, himself.

So far it would seem that a Mormon could validly administer an emergency baptism recognized as valid by the Catholic Church.
  1. Valid form: a Trinitarian formula. In English, in the Latin Church at its simplest the minister of baptism would say “I baptize you in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”, while the water is poured or the person immersed. Please note that I said “a Trinitarian formula” rather than “the Trinitarian formula”, as some variations in wording will not invalidate the form as long as it is the Holy Trinity in whose Name the person is being baptized: the Third Person may be refered to as “the Holy Ghost” rather than “the Holy Spirit”; the words may be spoken in Spanish or some other language; Some Eastern Churches, IIRC, speak the form in terms of the baptism as an accomplished fact rather than as what the minister intends to do, i.e.: “You are baptized in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. (I am sure others will correct me if I am mistaken on this point.) None of these variations would invalidate the form.
Other variants such as not naming any of the Persons of the Trinity (“I baptize you in the Name of God”), not naming all three Persons of the Trinity (“I baptize you in the Name of Jesus”), using improper names for the Persons of the Trinity (“I baptize you in the Name of the Parent and the Child and the Comforter” or “I baptize you in the Name of the Creator and the Redeemer and the Sanctifier”), or adding names of persons other than the three Persons of the Holy Trinity (“I baptize you in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and the Blessed Virgin Mary”) would all invalidate the form and the baptism. Please note that naming the person to be be baptized, if that person’s name is known, does not indalidate the form. So the minister could say “I baptize you, Mary, in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”, presuming that the person being baptized is named Mary or is being given the baptismal name Mary.

If a mormon is using a valid Trinitarian form, it would still seem that he could could validly administer an emergency baptism recognized as valid by the Catholic Church.
  • continued
 
  • continued
  1. Valid intent. Here is where the difficulties arise. In simplest terms, it means that a minister of baptism, whoever he or she is, must have the intention of doing what the Catholic Church does when this sacrament is administered, even if that person does not himself understand or believe what the Church does. In the case of a non-Catholic (even an athiest) this intention, expressed externally through that person’s use of valid form and matter is sufficient as long as that person doesn’t explicitly intend to do something different than what the Catholic Church does when she baptizes.
That is why a mormon baptism is not recognized by the Catholic Church: Even if a mormon baptizer uses valid matter and a form that is word for word the exact same verbage as a valid Trinitarian form, the incompatibly different understandings that the mormon church and the Catholic Church have for such fundamental bases of our respective faiths as, “the Father”, “the Son”, “the Holy Spirit”, and even “baptize”, means that the mormon baptizer, if he intends to mean what the mormon church means by those words and to do what the mormon church does when the mormon church baptizes, does not therfore intend to do the same thing that the Catholic Church does when she baptizes.

If, however a mormon in an emergency situation, such as a mormon physician or nurse in a hospital, is called upon to baptize a dying baby whose Catholic parents request baptism and no other person is available to baptize, if that mormon were to use valid matter and form with the intent to administer a Catholic baptism instead of a mormon baptism (that is, to do what the Catholic Church does when she baptizes and not what the mormon church does when she baptizes), then that mormon would administer an emergency baptism recognized as valid by the Catholic Church, although doubtless not by the mormon church as the intent was expressly contradictory. It would not matter that the mormon did not believe what the Catholic Church believes or even if he knew exactly what the Catholic Church believes, Essentially it would not be different from an emergency baptism administered by by an athiest.
 
to add to the concept of intent, the Catholic church believes in ONE baptism. this is important as the intent must be that it is a once in a lifetime event. The Mormon church believes that baptism can be administered as many times as necessary. they may only count one but they will rebaptize members who they consider to have been validly baptized if they were excommunicated or had their names removed and then return. Even if it is a case of multiple excommunications.
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
Zerinus,
excuse my direct approach, but we really don’t appreciate your tone nor language around here. If you think that you triumphed the Catholic Church and the Pope with your blog post and that this somehow authorises you to talk like that then you can just stop posting right away. In the end you will not accomplish anything. The Catholics around here are knowledgeable enough to convert to Mormonism.

In Christ,
~G
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Gandalf,
I’m sure that you meant to say that Catholics around here are knowledgeable enough NOT to convert to mormanism?
 
Mormons& jw’'s are not considered Christians by a majority of the Christian world. I think that that’s the easiest answer and probably the most concise…I mean look at some of the doctrines- Deification of man- your own heaven ,Mary as God’s “brood Mare”, a women’s 'salvation tied to her husband Eternal marriage.
 
Well, we dont recognize the Mormon baptism of the dead either, so why is this the sore spot?:confused:
 
juliamajor said:
Mormons& jw’'s are not considered Christians by a majority of the Christian world. I think that that’s the easiest answer and probably the most concise…I mean look at some of the doctrines- Deification of man- your own heaven ,Mary as God’s “brood Mare”, a women’s 'salvation tied to her husband Eternal marriage.
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JuliaMajor,
You are exactly correct. Everybody on these forums knows this, except zerinus.😃
 
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