RCC Decision Not to Recognize LDS Baptism!

[hosemonkey]

• continued

1. Valid intent. Here is where the difficulties arise. In simplest terms, it means that a minister of baptism, whoever he or she is, must have the intention of doing what the Catholic Church does when this sacrament is administered, even if that person does not himself understand or believe what the Church does. In the case of a non-Catholic (even an athiest) this intention, expressed externally through that person’s use of valid form and matter is sufficient as long as that person doesn’t explicitly intend to do something different than what the Catholic Church does when she baptizes.

That is why a mormon baptism is not recognized by the Catholic Church: Even if a mormon baptizer uses valid matter and a form that is word for word the exact same verbage as a valid Trinitarian form, the incompatibly different understandings that the mormon church and the Catholic Church have for such fundamental bases of our respective faiths as, “the Father”, “the Son”, “the Holy Spirit”, and even “baptize”, means that the mormon baptizer, if he intends to mean what the mormon church means by those words and to do what the mormon church does when the mormon church baptizes, does not therfore intend to do the same thing that the Catholic Church does when she baptizes.

If, however a mormon in an emergency situation, such as a mormon physician or nurse in a hospital, is called upon to baptize a dying baby whose Catholic parents request baptism and no other person is available to baptize, if that mormon were to use valid matter and form with the intent to administer a Catholic baptism instead of a mormon baptism (that is, to do what the Catholic Church does when she baptizes and not what the mormon church does when she baptizes), then that mormon would administer an emergency baptism recognized as valid by the Catholic Church, although doubtless not by the mormon church as the intent was expressly contradictory. It would not matter that the mormon did not believe what the Catholic Church believes or even if he knew exactly what the Catholic Church believes, Essentially it would not be different from an emergency baptism administered by by an athiest.

Very true. Once, at a fatal fire, I baptised three dying people, two small children and their mother, using water from a fire hose that I had caught in my helmet. The scene went dead silent, and everyone present, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, removed their helmets and stood in silent reverence. It was a very difficult experience, but it was the last thing that I could do for them.
It was before I had entered the Church, but it cemented my determination to become a Catholic.

 

[twosweetgirls]

^OMG, hosemonkey, that gave me goosebumps. WOW. I can’t even imagine.

 

[po18guy]

You missed! Too bad. I have already answerd that in my blog:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

zerinus

Here’s one for you: Are you attempting to lure marginal Catholics away from Christ? Glibly referring the faithful to some blog of dubious veracity likely violates forum rules. If you can’t make your case here, you can’t make it on some blog that’s pre-loaded with Mormons passing as inquiring Catholics.

Lead the faithful away from Christ to your eternal peril. If that seems like a threat, you may take it up with the one God.

 

[hosemonkey]

Here’s one for you: Are you attempting to lure marginal Catholics away from Christ? Glibly referring the faithful to some blog of dubious veracity likely violates forum rules. If you can’t make your case here, you can’t make it on some blog that’s pre-loaded with Mormons passing as inquiring Catholics.

Lead the faithful away from Christ to your eternal peril. If that seems like a threat, you may take it up with the one God.

This blog is the attempt by a mormon zealot to make some sort of sense of his very bizarre and incoherhent religion. IMO only a very weak-minded, very poorly catechised Catholic would lend even the slightest creedence to his crude rantings. I think that if his tortured reasoning had any polish at all, he could be regarded as proselytising, which is against forum rules. It is sometimes difficult to keep from laughing, he is soooo intense in his “testimony”. I think that he presents little danger. He is very much like the rather inept sniper that was annoying us in Vietnam. When the Marines offered to go out and kill him, we said “leave him alone, they might replace him with somebody that could really shoot.” Zerinus is that incompetent sniper.

 

[po18guy]

Very true. Once, at a fatal fire, I baptised three dying people, two small children and their mother, using water from a fire hose that I had caught in my helmet. The scene went dead silent, and everyone present, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, removed their helmets and stood in silent reverence. It was a very difficult experience, but it was the last thing that I could do for them.
It was before I had entered the Church, but it cemented my determination to become a Catholic.

hosemonkey, YOU ROCK! But, you owe me a new keyboard. You see, I had just sipped my triple shot latte when you fired back at zeronis, and it sprayed it all over! THe keeeeys ar e sstick ingg n ow.
It’s hours later and I’m still cracked up.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

LDS uses the Trinitarian formula. Try reading the blog before replying to it, and save yourself and us the trouble.

zerinus

PS. It looks like the post was deleted! Nevermind.

PPS. The poster was GandalfTheWhite

A God the Father who has sexual intercourse with the Blessed Virgin is not the God the Father of the NT, no matter what the wrapping. Having identical names for three of the Mormon gods as for the Three Divine Persons does not make Mormon theism even remotely Christian - nor even Jewish.​

 

[hosemonkey]

hosemonkey, YOU ROCK! But, you owe me a new keyboard. You see, I had just sipped my triple shot latte when you fired back at zeronis, and it sprayed it all over! THe keeeeys ar e sstick ingg n ow.
It’s hours later and I’m still cracked up.

Christ’s peace.

Which post was that?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Well, Mormons don’t intend to do what the Church does, do they. They don’t believe in original sin so they don’t intend to wash it away.

Worse, they think it a virtue. There’s some long diatribe in the Book of Mormon how good can’t exist without evil, etc.

Nonsense, just as light exists without darkness, and darkness is just the absence of light.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

A bigger idiot!

1. Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

2. The Catholic Church accepts paptism by an atheist (we don't).

zerinus

Zerinus, I don’t think that the Catholic Church does
“PAPTISM”.

“Papism” maybe, “Baptism” for sure, but no “paptism.”

Did you misspell?

I’ve heard of a mixed metaphor before.

But never a mixed ranting.

Sure Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ

Just like they believe in the divinity of Joseph Smith, Bringham Young and countless others.

So why stop with naming just three? Go through the whole pantheon.

 

[hosemonkey]

Zerinus seems to have been scared into the bushes. Let’s be real still and maybe he’ll come out again.

 

[Zooey]

Very true. Once, at a fatal fire, I baptised three dying people, two small children and their mother, using water from a fire hose that I had caught in my helmet. The scene went dead silent, and everyone present, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, removed their helmets and stood in silent reverence. It was a very difficult experience, but it was the last thing that I could do for them.
It was before I had entered the Church, but it cemented my determination to become a Catholic.

That is so beautiful, that you did that for them…

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Gandalf,
I’m sure that you meant to say that Catholics around here are knowledgeable enough NOT to convert to mormanism?

Oh yes!

 

[twosweetgirls]

Great idea, hosemonkey–and while we’re waiting, I’d love to hear more of your stories–TESTIMONIES! --of being a firefighter and being in Vietnam.

 

[hosemonkey]

Great idea, hosemonkey–and while we’re waiting, I’d love to hear more of your stories–TESTIMONIES! --of being a firefighter and being in Vietnam.

Thank you for your kind words. I have been blessed with the opportunity to have lived during some interesting times. I was a small-town kid who spent my growing-up years in a place where we had no TV, so I read voraciously, stories of travel and adventure and I wanted to do that too. My parents dreamed of a medical career for me, but I was restless. So, as early as I could, I joined the Navy and began to see the world. It was my fortune to live through a very troubled time in our history. I participated in the Cuban missile Crisis, duty in the Far East, three combat tours in Vietnam on the canals and rivers, the loss of friends and comrades. I had been a volunteer fireman since I was 16, so when I retired from the Navy, I guess that I had not had enough adventure, so I became a professional firefighter/Paramedic. But the highlight of my life was, after years of professing atheism, I was led into the Catholic Church, praise God. My soul has finally found rest in the True Faith. I have been blessed with a wonderful wife, a son and nine daughters, who are also firmly in the faith. I have many stories and memories, which are treasures that no one can take away. Thanks for asking. Cheers!

 

[twosweetgirls]

^A question: during the times that would surely test the most stalwart, intractable person–your combat duty, seeing what I’d imagine to be the most ungodly things, your being a paramedic and seeing unthinkable damage to a human being–how did you make it through? What, if you were an atheist at the time, gave you any sense of grounding? Did these experiences serve to make you question the existence of God more, or further drive you away from any such thought?

 

[twosweetgirls]

^Some more questions: While in Vietnam or on paramedic/firefighting duty, did you see others who professed a faith (before finding Jesus and your Home as a Catholic, that is) and what did that do to you? Were there superiors in either line of duty who, in hindsight, were integral to your coming Home?

 

[hosemonkey]

^A question: during the times that would surely test the most stalwart, intractable person–your combat duty, seeing what I’d imagine to be the most ungodly things, your being a paramedic and seeing unthinkable damage to a human being–how did you make it through? What, if you were an atheist at the time, gave you any sense of grounding? Did these experiences serve to make you question the existence of God more, or further drive you away from any such thought?

Fair question. I think that the human condition can make one either very cynical or very spiritual, you could go either way. I came home from the war badly damaged and very much disgusted with the whole situation. I suppose that it was my good fortune to have a Catholic friend that i was able to share my pain and confusion with. Because, in my atheism, I had studied Catholicism with a view toward disproving it, I had a very good grounding in the faith, all unknowingly. He directed me to a very wise and holy priest, who was able to counsel me. But at the very bottom, it was the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that broke my armored heart and caused my conversion. I tremble today to remember how many times that I was surrounded by death and had not the comfort of faith to sustain me. In the end though, the Lord had a purpose for my life and got me through. My wife and I have become very active in the Pro-Life effort, to affirm and protect life in the midst of the Culture of Death. I had a strong calling to be a paramedic also, so that I might save lives, rather than take them.

 

[twosweetgirls]

I tremble today to remember how many times that I was surrounded by death and had not the comfort of faith to sustain me.

Fair Brother, do those images yet haunt you? Did your conversion serve to lessen their impact, or take them away entirely? Did–or do–you look towards a certain Saint or devotion to help you?

Hope you don’t mind all my questions. Before having SweetGirlTwo, I was a talk-show host.

 

[JimmyJeff]

The Mormons insist on re-baptizing ANYONE who joins their faith and a lot of dead people as well so I’m unclear as to why it would bother a Mormon that the Catholic Church doesn’t see LDS baptism as valid.

 

[hosemonkey]

Fair Brother, do those images yet haunt you? Did your conversion serve to lessen their impact, or take them away entirely? Did–or do–you look towards a certain Saint or devotion to help you?

Hope you don’t mind all my questions. Before having SweetGirlTwo, I was a talk-show host.

It took some time, but I have finally achieved peace, for the most part. One is never entirely free of one’s experiences, the smell of soy sauce or the sound of a helicopter can bring it all flooding back. We know now that veterans as far back as the Civil War had such trauma. Our Blessed Mother’s intersession comforts me, most of all.