RCC Decision Not to Recognize LDS Baptism!

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zerinus said:
I have to disagree. I think that the analogy is a strong one. In the one case we are extolling the virtues of “the man,” and in the other case we are extolling the virtues of “America”. When we extol the virtues of “the man,” we do so because he “communed with Jehovah”. That makes it clear that it is “Jehovah” that is uppermost in our thought; we are putting Him on the higher pedestal than Joseph Smith. If we are praising Joseph Smith because he “communed with Jehovah,” that means that Jehovah is receiving the higher praise than Joseph Smith.
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I’m sorry but the comparison is a bad one. The words in “Praise the Man” are much more close to idolatry using Joseph Smith than anything in America the Beuatiful. The entire hymn which by your narrow definition is worship, is dedicated to one Joseph Smith, therefore LDS worship Joseph Smith through their hymns, according to your definition of worship. Worship should only be given to God, your definition of prayer and singing hymns falls under that category.
zerinus said:
I am afraid I don’t! I would put that down to the Catholic Church’s incorrect understanding of the “communion of saints”. If the Catholic Church teaches that their doctrine of the “communion of saints” justifies one to pray to a saint or to Mary, then their theology of the “communion of saints” (whatever that is) must be in error. It is not scriptural.

O.K. so you admit you have no knowledge of the teaching of the communion of the Saints… There’s a start. So if the Saints can’t hear our prayers how then are they in Heaven delivering our prayers before God?

Revelation 5:7-8
7 He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne.
8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.** Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.**
zerinus;2695911:
I am sure the saints are very much alive in heaven. But there is a gulf between the living on earth, and the dead which are in heaven
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. They do not hear our petitions in heaven; neither are we commanded to petition them from the earth.

And you know this how? Again read the above, the Saints in Heaven offer prayers before God which are the prayers of the Holy Ones. The Angels also offer prayers on our behalf, (at least according to the Bible in the book of Revelation they do).
zerinus said:
I totally disagree with you on that. There is absolutely no comparison between the decorative statutes that we have in our temples or churches, and the Catholic practice of praying, supplicating, and petitioning the saints or Mary. We do not worship, pray to, supplicate, nor petition those statutes. We do not kneel before them. We do not address them in prayer, either literally or symbolically. They are purely symbolic of what we believe. The Moroni statute symbolises the restoration of the gospel in the last days. The Christos stature symbolises our belief in the Saviour, and His creative role in the pre-existence. The Catholics literally kneel down before the statute of Mary and pray to her. Even granting that they do not pray to the statue but to Mary in heaven, that is something that we do not do.

zerinus
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It isn’t different at all, you go inside your Temple to petition God before images both painted and engraved. Underneath your Temples which you consider the most holy rituals you conduct them directly under a statue of moroni. Here is the commandment:

“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments.”

Now tell me how those statues I showed you aren’t breaking the commandment? Trust me an Orthodox Jew or Muslim wouldn’t step foot within the place because they would both call it idolatry. Like I said if we’re guilty you need to join the club.
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lukewarm said:
I’m sorry but the comparison is a bad one. The words in “Praise the Man” are much more close to idolatry using Joseph Smith than anything in America the Beuatiful. The entire hymn which by your narrow definition is worship, is dedicated to one Joseph Smith, therefore LDS worship Joseph Smith through their hymns, according to your definition of worship. Worship should only be given to God, your definition of prayer and singing hymns falls under that category.
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Sorry, but I disagree.
O.K. so you admit you have no knowledge of the teaching of the communion of the Saints… There’s a start.
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Not exactly. I have some knowledge of the Catholic doctrine of the “cmunion of saints”—enough to get me by. But I cannot say that I have made an in depth theological study of it. Actually, the doctrine of the communion of saints is more completely developed in LDS scripture. But to go into that would mean a distraction of the current discussion.
So if the Saints can’t hear our prayers how then are they in Heaven delivering our prayers before God?
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Revelation 5:7-8
7 He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne.
8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.** Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.**
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The book of Revelation is highly symbolic. I prefer the KJV; so if you don’t mind allow me to quote part of verse 8 from that: “. . . having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints”. The “golden vials full of odours” symbolize the “prayers of the saints”. It does not mean that the prayers of the saints literally go into “golden vials” and they have “odours”.
And you know this how? Again read the above, the Saints in Heaven offer prayers before God which are the prayers of the Holy Ones. The Angels also offer prayers on our behalf, (at least according to the Bible in the book of Revelation they do).
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Because scripture tells us so.
It isn’t different at all, you go inside your Temple to petition God before images both painted and engraved. Underneath your Temples which you consider the most holy rituals you conduct them directly under a statue of moroni. Here is the commandment:
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“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments.”
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Now tell me how those statues I showed you aren’t breaking the commandment? Trust me an Orthodox Jew or Muslim wouldn’t step foot within the place because they would both call it idolatry. Like I said if we’re guilty you need to join the club.
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Absolutely not. You have totally misunderstood the scriptures in question. When God gave that commandment to the ancient Israelites, as the context of the verses you have quoted makes clear, He meant that they should not make statutes to worship; not just any statutes or artwork. The Tabernacle itself contained artwork which consisted of figures of cherubim. Both the curtains contained woven art forms of cherubim, as well the Mercy Seat that covered the Ark of the Covenant (the most sacred object in the Tabernacle) contained statutes of cherubim on top of it. The Temple that Solomon built not only had the same images engraved on it, it contained a brazen font that rested on the backs of twelve statutes of oxen. The commandment to not make images meant images to worship, not any images, such as decorative art forms.

zerinus
 
Zerenius,

It’s obvious we disagree and I can live with that, hopefully if nothing else I gave you some things to think about. Good talking with you. I may try to address your latest post but at this point I think we’ll just be going in circles and the Yankees are on 🙂 , take care and God bless…

I will say I agree whole heartedly with your last paragraph and Catholics do not at all in any way worship the statues or images either. In fact your paragraph sounds like an apologetic straight out of Catholic answers…
 
lukewarm said:
Zerenius,

It’s obvious we disagree and I can live with that, hopefully if nothing else I gave you some things to think about. Good talking with you. I may try to address your latest post but at this point I think we’ll just be going in circles and the Yankees are on 🙂 , take care and God bless…

I will say I agree whole heartedly with your last paragraph and Catholics do not at all in any way worship the statues or images either. In fact your paragraph sounds like an apologetic straight out of Catholic answers…
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Thank you. Good talking to you too. The apologetics out of Catholic Answers have huge holes! I wouldn’t trust them too much—at least as far as Mormonism is concerned! 🙂

zerinus
 
A Prayer for those who need Fortitude:

Dear Jesus, lay your wounded hand
upon my weary head,
And teach me to have courage
In the paths that I must tread.

Bless me, and bless those whom I love,
And give us grace to see
These crosses bravely borne by us.
Will keep us close to Thee.

And if at times a shadow falls
In unexpected ways…
Put your gentle hand in mine
And guide me though the days,

So bless my people one and all,
With Thy protecting grace,
And impart to them Thy Wisdom
Ere the meet Thee face to face.

God bless
 
Hellisreal said:
Dear Sixtus,

It would be better you stay and check the thread now and then, I have been absent for some time now, but this thread has taken some odd shifts since I left. Reading your posts, I see you are not getting very good answers to your questions. We must see if we can get some.

Don’t worry how heavy it is, – many hands make light work…😉
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Thankyou Hellisreal, you are a real Angel. It is just that I am astonished at some of the replies. From where I am standing, it is all very easy to understand: Christ did not say 'On this rock I will build my many many Churches [just as well as the rock would not be big enough 😛 ], no, He did not say that. What He said was ‘On this rock I will build MY Church’. Now that is very simple to understand, even to a relatively simplton such as I.

What is it about ‘No’ that LDS do not understand. It is very simple really, any good dictionary will give a clear definition.

They said ‘they are not bothered what his Holiness has said’. well that is just as well as we are not in the slightest bit interested in what a handful of apostates and heretics think! :cool:

Yes, my dear friend hellisreal, I am for Christ, I am for His teachings-the bible-which is the property of the Church He founded and against whom, they cannot be used to refute her whose scriptures they are 👍 Communities will come and communities will go but His Church goes on until the end of time when the last Pope will hand back to Him the keys and the harvest.

I could set up an alleged church. I could call it say ‘the latter day angels’ 😉 I could call it whatever I chose, but if Christ’s authority on earth does not recognise it, then I guess it is not worth a cent. I could pretend and say 'Well who the hell is Christ’s authority anyway :rolleyes: But, the fact remains: for as long as I am outside from the established Church, refusing to recognise Christ’s teachings and authority, then any allegiance I then profess to Christ, really is not worth the paper it is written on. I reject Christ’s teachings and established authority on earth to whom He bestowed the ‘keys to the Kingdom of Heaven’ but I am for Christ. Well what can I say? How sad am I? How sad can it get:o More so, how embarrassing can it be?:o
 
zerinus said:
Thank you. Good talking to you too. The apologetics out of Catholic Answers have huge holes! I wouldn’t trust them too much—at least as far as Mormonism is concerned! 🙂

zerinus
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If His authority on earth ‘has holes’ then His unapointed clerics will be so full of holes it is almost correct to call them ‘holy’ 😛
 
Well, I think that it is wonderful that the catholic church does not recognize LDS baptisms. As a person who was born in the catholic faith and then joined the lds at 18 years of age and who is now attending the catholic mass, I find the situation very accomodating. I can be a switch hitter and be a member of both churches without a problem since neither church recognizes the other. 🙂

I can have the best of both worlds. 😉
 
why_me said:
Well, I think that it is wonderful that the catholic church does not recognize LDS baptisms. As a person who was born in the catholic faith and then joined the lds at 18 years of age and who is now attending the catholic mass, I find the situation very accomodating. I can be a switch hitter and be a member of both churches without a problem since neither church recognizes the other. 🙂

I can have the best of both worlds. 😉
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Uh, not really, since I think both churches frown on the idea of attending something that is not in full communion with them.

Sounds like you have a big decision to make.
 
why_me said:
Well, I think that it is wonderful that the catholic church does not recognize LDS baptisms. As a person who was born in the catholic faith and then joined the lds at 18 years of age and who is now attending the catholic mass, I find the situation very accomodating. I can be a switch hitter and be a member of both churches without a problem since neither church recognizes the other. 🙂

I can have the best of both worlds. 😉
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You cannot serve two masters, you cannot serve God and Satan.
The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Our Lord Himself, the mormon organization was founded by a convicted criminal. And mormons, don’t tell me that Our Lord was a convicted criminal too. Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud, not for teaching the Word of God.
 
on one of the mormon threads zerinus choose a particularly horrible verse from the Bible to insult me. I let it go by at the time but wonder if anyone remembers where it is exactly and is so could you send me the link to the actual post, please, if you do?
 
Philothea53 said:
on one of the mormon threads zerinus choose a particularly horrible verse from the Bible to insult me. I let it go by at the time but wonder if anyone remembers where it is exactly and is so could you send me the link to the actual post, please, if you do?
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It would be a badge of honor to be insulted by Zerinus from mormom ‘scripture.’

He has called us Catholics “evil apostates.” This was back in February of this year.

Then there are his other personal attacks on Paul Dupre, JonathanKinsman, Rebecca J, Hosemonkey and you.

We are witnessing to this confused young man.

We can take the slings and arrows of outrageous invention (i.e., ‘mormonism’)

God bless you

Robert
 
Rbt_Southwell said:
It would be a badge of honor to be insulted by Zerinus from mormom ‘scripture.’

He has called us Catholics “evil apostates.” This was back in February of this year.

Then there are his other personal attacks on Paul Dupre, JonathanKinsman, Rebecca J, Hosemonkey and you.

We are witnessing to this confused young man.

We can take the slings and arrows of outrageous invention (i.e., ‘mormonism’)

God bless you

Robert
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I know we can’t “swarm” him but, a prayer intention allows the Lord to do so…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2733057#post2733057
 
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