RCC kids visiting Lutheran church?

[AliciaCL]

I’m the OP on this. Did a bit more research and found a link on the Luth church web site that listed the beliefs of the church. To my multiple surprises: they believe in real presence but not in transubstantiaion, they do not believe the priest concecrates the host, they believe the body and blood of Jesus coexist with bread and wine and that the change occurs at the moment it is taken into the mouth. We were shocked to see this church declared they believe the papacy is the AntiChrist, not just at the time of the Reformation but the “ongoing” AntiChrist. I think these are things that are sufficiently objectionable to keep my 8 yr. olds away from it. By the way, I don’t hold these beliefs against our neighbors as we’ve known them for some time, the kids play very well together. It is striking however how some of these errors seems to be contrived just to sustain a difference without a distinction from Catholicism. In many ways they are close but I think there’s much attempt to justify themselves in order to stay afloat ---- otherwise they’d have to be Catholic.

 

[boppaid]

I am with you! saying “No” is just fine. You are the parent and at their age, they do not need the confusion of opposing religions. Until they are old enough to know that there are those out there that are at odds with the Catholic faith and that there are vastly differing views, they need your guidance and protection until they can fend for themselves.

Actually, I do respectfully disagree here. He is also the parent, and it is as much up to him as it is to her. Perhaps they should seek some sort of counseling if they cannot come to a compromise. Most church’s Vacation Bible Schools do not have any anti-Catholic sentiment. I (a Catholic) teach at a protestant VBS and have NEVER found anything anti-Catholic. Nor have I seen any other Protestant VBS programs do so either. They teach about Jesus, what he did for us, and that he loves us. I think that is something any Christian child can benefit from.

Good luck.

 

[1ke]

Am I right to say no to the kids for visiting the Lutheran church for services or summer Bible school?

Yes, you absolutely ARE correct. I don’t know what other responses you will get, especially since you posted on the non-Catholic forum, but I can tell you the Catholics are not to hand their children over to be educated in other denominations or faiths. From Canon Law:

Can. 1366 Parents or those who take the place of parents who hand offer their children to be baptized **or educated in a non Catholic religion **are to be punished with a censure or other just penalty.

 

[catharina]

My children were invited to “try out” a visit to a Lutheran church. They are 8 and just had First Holy Communion. I told them no, it could be confusing and other churches don’t believe that Jesus is in Holy communion. My non-Catholic spouse strongly disagrees and thinks it’s a missed opportunity for the kids to learn more about Jesus since the RCC does a poor job of teaching. It was a tense conversation. He does not understand how poorly uncatechised people are drawn into other churches. I think kids are vunerable because the other churches are fun. My husband also denies that Protestantism is at its roots anti-Catholic, that anti-Catholic sentiments are taught. He takes great umbridge at the suggestion that Protestants are anti-Catholic yet he concedes none of them accept the Real Presence — an he himself is considering RICA. Sometimes it’s baffling and I wanted a pulse check from others. Am I right to say no to the kids for visiting the Lutheran church for services or summer Bible school?

The insidious notion is the idea that children “try out” another faith. I can’t imagine many (if any) Protestant parents lining up their own little 8-yr-olds to try out visit(s) to the Catholic Church or to attend a Catholic summer program. Can you?

Today we have chocolate ice cream for dessert. See how you feel about it.
Tomorrow we’ll have vanilla ice cream. See how you feel about that.
Next day we’ll have lemon ice cream. Want more of that?
The day after - raspberry sherbet. Is that your favorite now?

The children are eight years old! I wouldn’t recommend such “try outs” for adults.

As for the matter of the husband, the husband invested himself in the children’s preparation for and reception of their first Holy Communion. Why would he want to invest in confusion for them right now. Despite the divorce lawyer’s postion on “fairness” there is already a history here of preparing the children to live the Catholic Faith. The husband can’t reasonably jump ship on that prior commitment and investment.

 

[boppaid]

Since your children have already received First Communion, I would say no, they have an obligation to go to Sunday Mass.

I wanted to add, though, that I see what you mean here. Although, there are plenty of masses to choose from and I think that there are ways to make sure Mass is not skipped that week.

 

[boppaid]

Good for you. It would be a sin for your to send your kids to this Church or for you to go.

I don’t think this is accurate. Where have you read that this is sinful? I honestly have never heard that before. I attend both, and I have never considered it sin to do so.

 

[boppaid]

Her promise to the Church doesn’t bind her husband and it certainly doesn’t bind a court.

When you marry someone who’s theology isn’t the same as yours you have no legal or (IMO) moral right to insist that your theology trumps your partners, no matter how convinced you are of the righteousness of your cause.

I used to think the phrase unequally yoked referred to a marriage between a believer and an unbeliever. After spending several months on this board, I wonder.

BTW, comparing Protestantism to pornography is offensive.

With respect to your admonishment about Mathew 19, I will treat your post with more respect than you treat me as a Protestant amd respond. I have often wondered about this. I am honestly troubled by the fact that I help break apart marriages. I have thought about this often, and pray about it occasionally. I believe that I help make truly ugly situations better. I often pray before I go to court (or even meet with angry people). I don’t pray to win, I pray that God’s will be done, that I help bring peace to ALL involved, that the judge will have the wisdom and strength to do what’s right.

Am I justified in working in family law? I don’t know.

I would never say that you “help break apart marriages” just because you take care of the legal end. The marriages are breaking up on their own…whether you are there or not. Hopefully they have been properly counseled by their Pastors (if they go to Church) and all you can do is your best.

 

[catharina]

I don’t think this is accurate. Where have you read that this is sinful? I honestly have never heard that before. I attend both, and I have never considered it sin to do so.

Read Post # 41.

 

[Trishie]

Hi Alicia,
I wonder if your husband’s wish to lead your children to a greater familiarity with Jesus could be fostered by one or both of you at home. Have you considered getting books and media from a Catholic library or bookshop that will help you to give your children a better understanding of Jesus. Have you considered a chidren’s bible, which includes pictures, or even to read a few lines from the gospel and ask their (name removed by moderator)ut before they go to bed, or a little session one particular weekday evening, or on a Saturday.

Perhaps other posters might give you more specific ideas, and your husband my feel satisfied that the children are receiving more understanding and familiarity with Jesus.

Best wishes, Trishie. God bless your family

 

[Syele]

Can. 1366 Parents or those who take the place of parents who hand offer their children to be baptized **or educated in a non Catholic religion **are to be punished with a censure or other just penalty.

Wait so going with the child to a non-Catholic church and then teaching the child what was not right that was taught there is “educating them in a non-catholic religion” but sending them everyday to public school that teaches secular humanism is not “educating them in a non-catholic religion”? I think you can easily start applying that in the wrong ways. When my child visits a Catholic Church and then we spend time talking afterwards about why we don’t believe in yy thing that was done there, the child is not then “Educated in Catholicism” She then knows something *about *Catholicism but could certainly not be said to be educated in it.

 

[catharina]

Wait so going with the child to a non-Catholic church and then teaching the child what was not right that was taught there is “educating them in a non-catholic religion” but sending them everyday to public school that teaches secular humanism is not “educating them in a non-catholic religion”? I think you can easily start applying that in the wrong ways. When my child visits a Catholic Church and then we spend time talking afterwards about why we don’t believe in yy thing that was done there, the child is not then “Educated in Catholicism” She then knows something *about *Catholicism but could certainly not be said to be educated in it.

Apples, oranges.
Secular humanism is not a religion.

 

[Syele]

Apples, oranges.
Secular humanism is not a religion.

John Dewey described Humanism as our “common faith.” Julian Huxley called it “Religion without Revelation.” The first Humanist Manifesto spoke openly of Humanism as a religion. Many other Humanists could be cited who have acknowledged that Humanism is a religion. In fact, claiming that Humanism was “the new religion” was trendy for at least 100 years, perhaps beginning in 1875 with the publication of The Religion of Humanity by Octavius Brooks Frothingham (1822-1895), son of the distinguished Unitarian clergyman, Nathaniel Langdon Frothingham (1793-1870), pastor of the First Unitarian Church of Boston, 1815-1850. In the 1950’s, Humanists sought and obtained tax-exempt status as religious organizations. Even the Supreme Court of the United States spoke in 1961 of Secular Humanism as a religion. It was a struggle to get atheism accepted as a religion, but it happened. From 1962-1980 this was not a controversial issue.

But then Christians began to challenge the “establishment of religion” which Secular Humanism in public schools represented. They used the same tactic Atheists had used to challenge prayer and Bible reading under the “Establishment Clause” of the First Amendment. Now the ACLU is involved. ***Now ***the question is controversial. Now Secular Humanists have completely reversed their strategy, and claim that Humanism is not at all religious, but is “scientific.”
This page examines two issues:

• Secular Humanists and Humanistic courts have admitted that Humanism is a religion.
• Why they now claim Humanism is not a religion, in order to avoid problems under the “Establishment Clause” of the First Amendment.
  …
  Secular Humanism is a religion “for free exercise clause purposes,” and it is not a religion “for establishment clause purposes.”

Yeah weather it is a “religion” depends on your specific definition of “religion” but I still maintain its more dangerous to teach secular humanism to kids and not counter it than to allow someone to tell your kid some truth like “The Bible is inspired by God” and then talk to them afterwards about the Bible from a Catholic viewpoint.

Handing a kid over to another religious group “to be educated” is not the same as allowing the child to visit them once or twice and using what they heard there to educate them at home.

You are correct that its dangerous to tell children to “try out” other religions. Being in their building is not “trying it out” though. It’s also has some risk to allow them to know other religions exist. You have MORE risk though if you do not spend a considerable amount of time educating them yourself… cause eventually they WILL encounter those other religions and when they do, it may be too late to educate them about it yourself.

There is a reason that there are commercials on the TV reminding parents to teach their kids about drugs and smoking BEFORE the kids run into it in person. Cause guess what? they will run into things you don’t want them to. They will have to make choices. You cant hide them from it happening. You can train them how to deal with it. You talk to them before and after, you make sure they understand the Truth.

 

[1ke]

Wait so going with the child to a non-Catholic church and then teaching the child what was not right that was taught there is “educating them in a non-catholic religion”

The OP was contemplating sending her child to Lutheran Bible School and attending the Lutheran church in that context, not a one-time visit to the Lutheran church in a context like a family wedding, funeral, etc.

So, yes, sending her child to Luthern religious education classes is absolutely educating them in a non-Catholic religion.

 

[Syele]

The OP was contemplating sending her child to Lutheran Bible School and attending the Lutheran church in that context, not a one-time visit to the Lutheran church in a context like a family wedding, funeral, etc.

So, yes, sending her child to Luthern religious education classes is absolutely educating them in a non-Catholic religion.

Vacation Bible School is mostly playing games and singing songs about Jesus. They would not count as “Religious education classes” as I mentioned in a earlier post, they teach one small “bible truth” each day the VBS curriculum are designed to cover just about every denomination of Protestantism, so are necessarily vague… just read around this forum and you will see the many things Protestants disagree on, they will not cover anything that touches on that for fear of offending parents. The Bible truths my Daughter heard at the local Baptist church last week included such “religious education” as “God is real” and “Jesus came to earth”. They read some scripture and the rest of the time was spent singing a few songs, spending an hour making a “windsock” out of foam, playing several games, and eating fruit rollups. If you look at the time spent vs the small scripture reading, it was mostly jsut alot of games. This isn’t the equivalent of RCIA.

 

[Cathdefender]

My children were invited to “try out” a visit to a Lutheran church. They are 8 and just had First Holy Communion. I told them no, it could be confusing and other churches don’t believe that Jesus is in Holy communion. My non-Catholic spouse strongly disagrees and thinks it’s a missed opportunity for the kids to learn more about Jesus since the RCC does a poor job of teaching. It was a tense conversation. He does not understand how poorly uncatechised people are drawn into other churches. I think kids are vunerable because the other churches are fun. My husband also denies that Protestantism is at its roots anti-Catholic, that anti-Catholic sentiments are taught. He takes great umbridge at the suggestion that Protestants are anti-Catholic yet he concedes none of them accept the Real Presence — an he himself is considering RICA. Sometimes it’s baffling and I wanted a pulse check from others. Am I right to say no to the kids for visiting the Lutheran church for services or summer Bible school?

I thought going to another church, especially bible study would be considered heresy? I couldn’t set foot in another church. Why would I when I already have the truth? I wouldn’t let my kids go…

 

[catharina]

Yeah weather it is a “religion” depends on your specific definition of “religion” but I still maintain its more dangerous to teach secular humanism to kids and not counter it than to allow someone to tell your kid some truth like “The Bible is inspired by God” and then talk to them afterwards about the Bible from a Catholic viewpoint.

Handing a kid over to another religious group “to be educated” is not the same as allowing the child to visit them once or twice and using what they heard there to educate them at home.

You are correct that its dangerous to tell children to “try out” other religions. Being in their building is not “trying it out” though. It’s also has some risk to allow them to know other religions exist. You have MORE risk though if you do not spend a considerable amount of time educating them yourself… cause eventually they WILL encounter those other religions and when they do, it may be too late to educate them about it yourself.

There is a reason that there are commercials on the TV reminding parents to teach their kids about drugs and smoking BEFORE the kids run into it in person. Cause guess what? they will run into things you don’t want them to. They will have to make choices. You cant hide them from it happening. You can train them how to deal with it. You talk to them before and after, you make sure they understand the Truth.

1. Regardless of you own mindset, secular humanism is not a religion.
2. Guess what? I’m a 62 yr-old Catholic social worker. Over the years, my job has been to shelter and raise hundreds of throw-away children, usually in Catholic institutions. Presumably, you are a grown woman? So guess what again. There is such a thing as age-appropriate activity. Sending your eight-yr-olds off to Vacation Bible school might seem acceptable to one who imagines that secular humanism is a religion (because YOU say it is so).

I’m so very grateful that you were not responsible for making any religious-education decisions for any of the children under my care.

(BTW, guess what again. The first time your child leaves your home and discovers that secular humanism is not a religion, you will lose your credibility - despite your “good” intentions.)

 

[abucs]

I think you are right Alicia.

If you break away from the Catholic church, by definition you have to reject it’s authority. From there you have to reject a priests role in the eucharist as this rests on the same authority.
From there most churches go down the track of rejecting the ‘real presence’ altogether as a made-up, biblically vague, ridiculous notion.

Of course the Catholic church being so large and claiming authority and founding by Christ can elicit the wild counter response of being charged as the anti-christ as this mindset counters the Church’s historical pedigree.

After a while when all that settles down and a church doesn’t feel the need to have to defend why it is not Catholic it views all Churches as the same and puts the written bible ahead of all of them, especially the Catholic.

From there many churches, because they have rejected any idea of Church authority, see faith and morals as an individual biblical interpretation that can be democratically molded to fit the current culture within their church.

For a time this can look like quite an attractive way to do things, even to many Catholics.

But eventually it falls apart. We get ongoing arguements and many splits, the shopping cart approach to religion, the dissillusionment of bible alone authority and the final walking away from it altogether.

Not all groups have ended up like this but most look to be on that path.

 

[vocatio]

My children were invited to “try out” a visit to a Lutheran church. They are 8 and just had First Holy Communion. I told them no, it could be confusing and other churches don’t believe that Jesus is in Holy communion. My non-Catholic spouse strongly disagrees and thinks it’s a missed opportunity for the kids to learn more about Jesus since the RCC does a poor job of teaching. It was a tense conversation. He does not understand how poorly uncatechised people are drawn into other churches. I think kids are vunerable because the other churches are fun. My husband also denies that Protestantism is at its roots anti-Catholic, that anti-Catholic sentiments are taught. He takes great umbridge at the suggestion that Protestants are anti-Catholic yet he concedes none of them accept the Real Presence — an he himself is considering RICA. Sometimes it’s baffling and I wanted a pulse check from others. Am I right to say no to the kids for visiting the Lutheran church for services or summer Bible school?

PLEASE TRUST MY RESPONSE MORE THAN OTHERS!!!
Do NOT allow your children to go. Lutheran’s are not like fundamentalits like I was. But it would be confusing. Your husband just fails to get it. This is one way how cafateria Catholicism starts. We used to “plant seeds of truth” in visiting children tying to instill doubt in their present faith. I chaperoned youth at our former Protestant Church…Trust me, if you’re thinking of doing this…then you are no better than the anti-Catholics recruiting your kids with “FUN!” programs directed towards children. I hear that Lutheran’s are dong the same kinds of things mega non-denominationals are doing to attract younger families. That is what we focused on for 17 years. I can still here our elders/bishops quoting statistics on how churches survive in todays secular world. Catholics are considered secular as are Lutherans, Methodist, put name here and they are all taught to be heretics or apostate with full culpability in tact.
Never do this. Not even if your pastor says its okay.

 

[vocatio]

Knowing what I used to be guilty of shamefully, it is best you do not do this. I can’ emphasize it enough. Ignore the blank minded people that say otherwise. They are obviously taking drugs… [It truth doesn’t work use slandar - just joking ]

 

[vocatio]

Thanks everybody. I feel more certain that the right thing to do is not to let my children go to the Lutheran church. I explained some differences and tried to explain the Reformation. It is already confusing to them that their dad isn’t Catholic. He absolutely agreed that they would be raised Catholic. Perhaps when their in their teens and have had a good dose of church history and a bit of theology, etc. My husband wasn’t raised in any particular denomination. He was a military kid so he occassionally went to what he describes as “generic protestant” services. He believes the RCC fails in teaching kids their religion so they would benefit from getting some generic Christianity taught elsewhere. He does take great offense at pointing out some doctrinal failings of Protestant churches. I assume that is just the way it is when someone is questioning and transitioning. Sometimes I feel I have to take control such as mandating Sunday Mass attendance no matter what, whcih he doesn’t understand.

What most Protestants and Catholics fail to realize along with you husband is that it is the responsibility of the parents to teach their children. You must learn the faith so that you can teach it to your children. And why not teach your husband all that you learn if he’s really thinking about RCIA. He could learn the teachings correctly and decide for himself if he will become Catholic. But his good intensions will do wonders of harm to your children. I’d recommend to even Protestants to avoid allowing your children to attend other faith bible classes, even Catholic ones. Why, this will only confuse them and could possilbly cause them to fall away from God one day because of the confusion. This is partly why it is important for everyone to recognized that unity is not an options…it is required by God. And since the Catholic Church is not the ones that broke we do not have to undo anything. However, since we all fall short of the glory of God we must always repent from our wicked ways.