RCIA last night

[dje101]

We were taught that the teaching by the church on abortion is only a suggestion because it has not been infallibly defined by the pope,so if our conscience permits us, then we are allowed to vote for pro-abortion politicians or laws because we can’t force our beliefs on other people.

I (charitably) debated this point with two of my teachers and RCIA candidates/catechumens. I believe I was in the right when arguing that the church DOES teach against it and we have a moral obligation to vote against these things. Also, is this something I should bring up to my priest?

Thanks,

dje101

 

[tafan]

We were taught that the teaching by the church on abortion is only a suggestion because it has not been infallibly defined by the pope,so if our conscience permits us, then we are allowed to vote for pro-abortion politicians or laws because we can’t force our beliefs on other people.

I (charitably) debated this point with two of my teachers and RCIA candidates/catechumens. I believe I was in the right when arguing that the church DOES teach against it and we have a moral obligation to vote against these things. Also, is this something I should bring up to my priest?

Thanks,

dje101

This is absurd and you need to point this out to your pastor. If he does not correct the situation you need to report it to the diocese.

From the CCC:

“2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law”

First of all, this is obviously NOT a suggestion.

Secondly, magisteriim teachings do not have to be infallibly defined by a pope to be infallible. They do not have to even be defined by a council to be considered infallible. If they have been universibly taught by the bishops, they are infallible. Abortion certainly falls into this category.

Finally, there are some teachings of the church that are not infallible, but even those we owe intellectual assent and obedience to. Those are more than suggestions. But abortion does not fall into this category of Church teachings.

 

[dje101]

Yeah, thought so. I am the only one in the class that brings a CCC to every class. When she said that, I found the exact paragraph you pointed out and said “well the CCC speaks against, so if it’s not a teaching, why is it in here?”. She didn’t have an answer, but just said over again that “we need to vote according to our conscience and I can’t tell someone what they can’t do. That’s just how I feel.”.

This all came up because she was speaking on the examination of conscience and making a good confession. She stumbled into the politics a little bit and I started asking questions. It just escalated from there.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Finally, there are some teachings of the church that are not infallible, but even those we owe intellectual assent and obedience to. Those are more than suggestions. But abortion does not fall into this category of Church teachings.

Good answer. Some people are under the very mistaken impression that we are only required to obey to infallibly defined teachings. We are required to obey ALL Magesterial teachings - even those which are mutable and thus are clearly not infallible (such as the rules regarding fasting).

I knew that some Catholics do not know this. I just didn’t expect to find any of them actually teaching an RCIA class.

sigh.

 

[jwinch2]

Please speak with your priest ASAP. This absolutely should not be happening.

 

[JD27076]

We were taught that the teaching by the church on abortion is only a suggestion because it has not been infallibly defined by the pope,so if our conscience permits us, then we are allowed to vote for pro-abortion politicians or laws because we can’t force our beliefs on other people.

I (charitably) debated this point with two of my teachers and RCIA candidates/catechumens. I believe I was in the right when arguing that the church DOES teach against it and we have a moral obligation to vote against these things. Also, is this something I should bring up to my priest?

Thanks,

dje101

Firstly, tell her she is DEAD wrong with the CCC paragraph with that first comment.
Secondly, tell your pastor, (Since you said “she”).
Thirdly, tell her to go to confession. This is definitely a grave matter.
She should of had sufficient knowledge before becoming an RCIA teacher.

 

[domandcarols]

Most disgusting thing I’ve heard all day, wow. Write a letter to your priest and bishop immediately, this is absolutely unacceptable. She needs go to confession and she definetely should not be anywhere near an RCIA class.

 

[BillB2]

Nancy Pelosi said something similar to this on a nationally televised show.

She said the church had never decided when life began and it is wrong to claim the church opposes abortion.

Pelosi is a practicing Catholic. Why wasn’t she excommunicated?

Shouldn’t she be considered a heretic?

 

[tafan]

Yeah, thought so. I am the only one in the class that brings a CCC to every class. When she said that, I found the exact paragraph you pointed out and said “well the CCC speaks against, so if it’s not a teaching, why is it in here?”. She didn’t have an answer, but just said over again that “we need to vote according to our conscience and I can’t tell someone what they can’t do. That’s just how I feel.”.

This all came up because she was speaking on the examination of conscience and making a good confession. She stumbled into the politics a little bit and I started asking questions. It just escalated from there.

Keep your CCC handy, RCIA programs, taught by people with really good intentions, have a lot of flaws. God bless.

 

[dje101]

I’ve left a voicemail for my priest…waiting for a return call.

I was SO shocked to hear here say these things. I was having trouble with most of the things she was saying last night, like we shouldn’t worry about mortal sin because it is EXTREMELY difficult to committ one (and then laughed it off), or when she was explaining that in confession, we need to examine our relationships with other people. I didn’t have so much trouble with this, but the fact that she spent 20 minutes explaining how we need to examine our relationship with others for a good confession, but only once said “you also need to fix your relationship with God.”. Maybe I’m being a bit too critical of her on these last few points, but I felt she was overemphasizing our relationship with others and not emphasizing enough about our relationship with God.

Towards the end I felt I needed to speak up because these are not sounding right.

 

[dje101]

Nancy Pelosi said something similar to this on a nationally televised show.

She said the church had never decided when life began and it is wrong to claim the church opposes abortion.

Pelosi is a practicing Catholic. Why wasn’t she excommunicated?

Shouldn’t she be considered a heretic?

I actually brought up Nancy Pelosi, and she responded with “if I had to choose between a presidential candidate who is pro-abortion and a presidential candidate who is pro-war, I will choose the pro-abortion candidate because I think war is SO much worse.”

 

[tafan]

I’ve left a voicemail for my priest…waiting for a return call.

I was SO shocked to hear here say these things. I was having trouble with most of the things she was saying last night, like we shouldn’t worry about mortal sin because it is EXTREMELY difficult to committ one (and then laughed it off), or when she was explaining that in confession, we need to examine our relationships with other people. I didn’t have so much trouble with this, but the fact that she spent 20 minutes explaining how we need to examine our relationship with others for a good confession, but only once said “you also need to fix your relationship with God.”. Maybe I’m being a bit too critical of her on these last few points, but I felt she was overemphasizing our relationship with others and not emphasizing enough about our relationship with God.

Towards the end I felt I needed to speak up because these are not sounding right.

Do not be too surprised or distressed if you do not get the support from your pastor you desire. RCIA programs are hard to man and pastors are likely loath to offend one of the teachers.
It is an unfortunate reality of the Church these days that catechumens and others joining the faith are often not given solid formation. It will be up to you personally to rectify this in your own case. That can be difficult, and admittedly it to can cause a lot of errors (if you pick the wrong reading material, for instance). I wish I had a better answer, but I will go back to “keep your catechism close by, at all times”. When you hear something that sounds a little “off”, trust your instinct enough to take the time to look it up.

And no, mortal sins are not difficult to commit. I know of lots of things that are gravely wrong, many of them, I could choose to do in the next 5 minutes, with no difficulty at all. She needs this brought up also. Try this argument: Ask her this the following questions: is not going to mass on Sunday difficult? Is it grave matter without a just reason? So why is it extremely difficult to commit a mortal sin? (Oh and for reference,look show her paragraph 2181:

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

 

[anp1215]

If everything you said is true (and there was no communication problem) your RCIA teachers and 100% WRONG and you are right. Good for you for arguing this point and not backing down! Shame on them!

The Church does not “suggest” that murder is OK! What absurdity!

If your pastor does not support you, call the Bishop’s office. This is a very serious matter.

What does everyone think about the OP taping all future classes? On the one hand, if they have taught you such a terribly inaccurate thing, I think you should tape your future classes, because who knows what they are going to say next? If you taped them, you would be able to show anyone who brushes the situation off that you are serious and not making this up.

On the other hand, should the OP ask permission first? Part of me thinks yes, it is polite. The other part of me thinks, no, they will probably say no anyway because they will figure out the OP complained to the pastor. In almost any situation, I would think it impolite to tape a class without the teacher’s permission, but in this case, the violation of Church teaching is so serious, I am rethinking that position.

OP, don’t despair. I was told in RCIA by a Deacon that “not using contraception is the best way, but using it is the ‘less good’ way.” I think there are a lot of issues/misrepresentation in a lot of RCIA programs today.

 

[Equites_Christi]

I actually brought up Nancy Pelosi, and she responded with “if I had to choose between a presidential candidate who is pro-abortion and a presidential candidate who is pro-war, I will choose the pro-abortion candidate because I think war is SO much worse.”

Well of course! How could killing someone who is trying to kill you or your countrymen possibly be more justifiable than slaughtering a child in the womb?

And she’s an RCIA teacher, and she’s telling everyone the way she feels about things and contradicting the Catechism?

This is an OUTRAGE. It’s time the Church says enough is ENOUGH. We should have no more patience for people like her who have caused the great scandal of faith of the past several decades, the stinking SCOURGE of the Church. It created a generation of know-nothing Catholics, from which descended another generation - MY generation, which knows even LESS because its parents didn’t know anything in the first place! It’s time to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Thank goodness I’m not in that situation, I wouldn’t have the charity to do anything good about it

 

[dje101]

Do not be too surprised or distressed if you do not get the support from your pastor you desire. RCIA programs are hard to man and pastors are likely loath to offend one of the teachers.
It is an unfortunate reality of the Church these days that catechumens and others joining the faith are often not given solid formation. It will be up to you personally to rectify this in your own case. That can be difficult, and admittedly it to can cause a lot of errors (if you pick the wrong reading material, for instance). I wish I had a better answer, but I will go back to “keep your catechism close by, at all times”. When you hear something that sounds a little “off”, trust your instinct enough to take the time to look it up.

And no, mortal sins are not difficult to commit. I know of lots of things that are gravely wrong, many of them, I could choose to do in the next 5 minutes, with no difficulty at all. She needs this brought up also. Try this argument: Ask her this the following questions: is not going to mass on Sunday difficult? Is it grave matter without a just reason? So why is it extremely difficult to commit a mortal sin? (Oh and for reference,look show her paragraph 2181:

Thanks for your advice. I’m hoping for the best. I’ve spoken with the priest before about how I feel they are not teaching things sufficiently. He said he’s heard that from other people in this class (he’s been here less than a year so it is news to him). He said he is planning on revamping the curriculum after this years class is over.

 

[dje101]

If everything you said is true (and there was no communication problem) your RCIA teachers and 100% WRONG and you are right. Good for you for arguing this point and not backing down! Shame on them!

The Church does not “suggest” that murder is OK! What absurdity!

If your pastor does not support you, call the Bishop’s office. This is a very serious matter.

What does everyone think about the OP taping all future classes? On the one hand, if they have taught you such a terribly inaccurate thing, I think you should tape your future classes, because who knows what they are going to say next? If you taped them, you would be able to show anyone who brushes the situation off that you are serious and not making this up.

On the other hand, should the OP ask permission first? Part of me thinks yes, it is polite. The other part of me thinks, no, they will probably say no anyway because they will figure out the OP complained to the pastor. In almost any situation, I would think it impolite to tape a class without the teacher’s permission, but in this case, the violation of Church teaching is so serious, I am rethinking that position.

OP, don’t despair. I was told in RCIA by a Deacon that “not using contraception is the best way, but using it is the ‘less good’ way.” I think there are a lot of issues/misrepresentation in a lot of RCIA programs today.

Good idea about taping the classes. I have to get their permission first because is illegal to tape record someone without their knowledge.

 

[Nimzovik]

I actually brought up Nancy Pelosi, and she responded with “if I had to choose between a presidential candidate who is pro-abortion and a presidential candidate who is pro-war, I will choose the pro-abortion candidate because I think war is SO much worse.”

Methinks Fatima does indeed indicate that war can be a punishment for sin (Russia will spread her errors.) Ergo to vote for a Por Abort President is indeed to vote for a Pro - war president- yes?

 

[tafan]

Good idea about taping the classes. I have to get their permission first because is illegal to tape record someone without their knowledge.

I do not think it is a good idea, not if the priest is understanding as you say. I think it is a very bad idea. You just need to be firm (but charitable) and challenge them when they are wrong. Don’t be afraid to wait a week to “do your homework” so that your arguments are solid. Then just keep a list of the problems you encounter and let the priest have those, so as to aid him in revamping the program next year.

Taping them is going to make you into a pariah, and it is going to damage your credibility to affect change when the opportunity will arise.

 

[Irishmom2]

He said he’s heard that from other people in this class (he’s been here less than a year so it is news to him). He said he is planning on revamping the curriculum after this years class is over.

So where does that leave you and the others? You have the good sense and the knowledge to call her out on what she is saying, but what about the others? And what about the other classes she has already taught?

Your pastor needs to do more than just revamp–he needs to come sit in at a class and see firsthand what is going on.

 

[jpjd]

Your pastor needs to do more than just revamp–he needs to come sit in at a class and see firsthand what is going on.

I agree with this. I think that in every parish, a priest or deacon should be on the RCIA team. Priests are busy people, no doubt, but certainly shepherding potential converts has to be high on his list of priorities.