RCIA last night

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I live in the Sacramento diocese of California.
Lucky you. You have a good bishop there. Even the one before Bishop Soto was good about RCIA.

The RCIA class I was in was a year or so after the one where Bishop Weigand was informed that the director of RCIA had been teaching incorrect doctrine. One of the participants who was coming back to the church wrote a letter to the bishop telling him what was going on and that RCIA director was gone so fast it would make your head spin. Like a week later.
 
It’s crazy not to worry about it, but she might have a point about mortal sin being difficult to commit. There is no Doctrine concerning this, and Catholic theologians hold different opinions. There are some theologians who believe it is difficult for a Catholic of good will to mortally sin. Since it is impossible to know if any particular act qualifies as a mortal sin (only God can ever know for sure), it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong.

At any rate, this is purely her opinion, and has no place in RCIA (unless she made it clear it is not an official Church teaching).
I don’t know of many theological writings on "how easy"it is. But I take exception with your comment “only God can know for sure”. This is simply not logical.

Mortal sin is what sends us to hell. As Catholics we believe that going to hell is a just punishment because we have freely rejected God. If only God knows for sure, how did we ever freely reject God. The logic falls apart.

My thoughts are that mortal sins are easy,even if we don’t easily make the decision. My example of missing mass on Sunday is a good illustration.
  1. It must be grave matter. The Catechism tells us it is in very explicit language.
  2. We must know it is grave matter. Again, if we ever read the catechism, paragraph 2181
    “obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin” we know. If you read this post, you now know.
  3. We must freely choose to commit the sin. All I have to do is not go on Sunday, that is very easy. It happens all the time for many Catholics.
Now, how can it be difficult to commit a mortal sin? And if I decide this Sunday to not go, how can only God know?
 
Yikes! I’m not even Catholic and I know better than what you were being told. The lack of knowledge about the Church’s true position regarding abortion is bad, but the understanding of politics is not much better.
then we are allowed to vote for pro-abortion politicians or laws because we can’t force our beliefs on other people.
She didn’t have an answer, but just said over again that “we need to vote according to our conscience and I can’t tell someone what they can’t do. That’s just how I feel.”.
What is voting other than forcing your beliefs on other people? That is the entire point of voting. When you vote for a politician it is so he will impose upon the entire population a set of rules which you largely agree with. Those rules can run from the mundane like requiring dog tags to serious crimes like murder (which abortion of course is). For all levels of law they are enforced by the state through the use of force whether that be the taking of money for fines, physical assault in order to compel compliance, imprisonment, or even death. How is it OK to force your belief in things like requiring dog tags but not something much more serious, the taking of innocent human life? I’d be as worried about the lack of understanding about what voting actually means in the first place. Whenever I hear that statement, and I hear it a lot, I realize the person has either very muddled thinking or just has not done much thinking to begin with.
 
Thanks to everyone for your replies and support. As many of you suggested, I spoke with my priest tonight.

He was very shocked at what had been taught, and pretty much said what everyone else here was saying; that she was teaching against the church, that it was no place for her to be voicing her opinions when those opinions are opposed to the church, that we should be learning from the CCC, etc. He also said that he and the pastor have been reviewing the program and will be making some much needed changes (to the curriculum and possibly the team). Overall, he was very happy that I brought this to his attention and says that they will definitely be addressing it.
 
Praise God for His priests! I am glad that God met you in this way as you continue to receive His grace to embrace the Christian faith. It’s encouraging for me. It must be really encouraging for you! I came back to the Church a few years ago, and God has met me many times along the way. It has been exciting! Welcome to the Church of Jesus Christ.

With love in Christ,
Pete
 
Yikes! I’m not even Catholic and I know better than what you were being told. The lack of knowledge about the Church’s true position regarding abortion is bad, but the understanding of politics is not much better.

What is voting other than forcing your beliefs on other people? That is the entire point of voting. When you vote for a politician it is so he will impose upon the entire population a set of rules which you largely agree with. Those rules can run from the mundane like requiring dog tags to serious crimes like murder (which abortion of course is). For all levels of law they are enforced by the state through the use of force whether that be the taking of money for fines, physical assault in order to compel compliance, imprisonment, or even death. How is it OK to force your belief in things like requiring dog tags but not something much more serious, the taking of innocent human life? I’d be as worried about the lack of understanding about what voting actually means in the first place. Whenever I hear that statement, and I hear it a lot, I realize the person has either very muddled thinking or just has not done much thinking to begin with.
Good thoughts, exnihilo!

Do you have your story somewhere, of why you’re not Catholic? Please share a link or the story itself if you would like.

In Christ,
Pete
 
Praise God for His priests! I am glad that God met you in this way as you continue to receive His grace to embrace the Christian faith. It’s encouraging for me. It must be really encouraging for you! I came back to the Church a few years ago, and God has met me many times along the way. It has been exciting! Welcome to the Church of Jesus Christ.

With love in Christ,
Pete
:amen:

I love our priests, I’m so grateful that God has brought me to a parish with such concerned, understanding and supportive priests.
 
See old.usccb.org/prolife/tdocs/quotes.shtml for helpful references in your conversations.
We were taught that the teaching by the church on abortion is only a suggestion because it has not been infallibly defined by the pope,so if our conscience permits us, then we are allowed to vote for pro-abortion politicians or laws because we can’t force our beliefs on other people.

I (charitably) debated this point with two of my teachers and RCIA candidates/catechumens. I believe I was in the right when arguing that the church DOES teach against it and we have a moral obligation to vote against these things. Also, is this something I should bring up to my priest?
I can’t help thinking your conversation got confused. You seem to be talking about two separate issues at once.

First, it is a mortal sin to have, perform, or procure an abortion. Wherever it seems obvious to a minister of communion that, for example, a politician’s public act is tantamount to procuring an abortion, it becomes a matter for the bishop.

Second, it is not equally obvious to everyone that a politician’s public acts (especially if we cast a broad net and consider their affiliations) are tantamount to procuring an abortion. Some politicians may, for example, support an existing regime because they don’t think proposals to change it are lawful or actually possible; some may think that a change will make things worse. Obviously, we all know these are not the majority of obvious cases, but for these and other reasons, the U.S. bishops have declined to establish a uniform rule that politicians who support legalized abortions are automatically barred from communion. (see old.usccb.org/catholicspubliclife.shtml for the bishops’ statement–better, see [old.usccb.org/bishops/catholics(name removed by moderator)oliticallife.shtml](http://old.usccb.org/bishops/catholics(name removed by moderator)oliticallife.shtml) )

SO, perhaps both you and your instructor were trying to establish one clear, individual-conscience-based rule for something which, in the wisdom of God and the authority of the Magisterium, is not yet as clear or obvious as that.

Have, perform, procure? mortal sin
protect legalization by public political act? probably mortal sin, but see bishop
vote for politician who will protect legalization? possibly mortal sin, but see confessor

That’s my understanding of the teaching of the bishops. Go to your priest first, though.

Best,
PGE
 
We were taught that the teaching by the church on abortion is only a suggestion because it has not been infallibly defined by the pope,so if our conscience permits us, then we are allowed to vote for pro-abortion politicians or laws because we can’t force our beliefs on other people.

I (charitably) debated this point with two of my teachers and RCIA candidates/catechumens. I believe I was in the right when arguing that the church DOES teach against it and we have a moral obligation to vote against these things. Also, is this something I should bring up to my priest?

Thanks,

dje101
Here’s the search engine for the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) and more specifically what the Catechism says on abortion. Note: #2272
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=abortion&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Your priest not only needs to remove these people from teaching you, but insist that anyone in the future who desires to teach RCIA proves they are competent in the faith

When I was sponsoring a candidate, I bought Catechisms for the entire class.
 
Here’s the search engine for the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) and more specifically what the Catechism says on abortion. Note: #2272
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=abortion&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Your priest not only needs to remove these people from teaching you, but insist that anyone in the future who desires to teach RCIA proves they are competent in the faith

When I was sponsoring a candidate, I bought Catechisms for the entire class.
You mentioned the CAtechisms that you gave the students. My priest mentioned the catechisms too. We have only opened up our bibles (not exaggerating) 2-3 times (and only when the deacon or seminarian was teaching, as well as for one guest speaker) and I’m the only one who has (or at least brings) a CCC to each class. I spoke with the leader of the program about two months after it started about the lack of use of the bible and CCC, and he didn’t like the idea of using the CCC because “the thing about the catechism is that it’s so big.”. I brought this up to my priest, who said what I’ve wanted to hear for the longest time from the program, and that was “RCIA really only needs two books; the CCC and the bible.” We were given one book to read for RCIA and I felt it was too vague on all the important subjects.
 
You mentioned the CAtechisms that you gave the students. My priest mentioned the catechisms too. We have only opened up our bibles (not exaggerating) 2-3 times (and only when the deacon or seminarian was teaching, as well as for one guest speaker) and I’m the only one who has (or at least brings) a CCC to each class. I spoke with the leader of the program about two months after it started about the lack of use of the bible and CCC, and he didn’t like the idea of using the CCC because “the thing about the catechism is that it’s so big.”. I brought this up to my priest, who said what I’ve wanted to hear for the longest time from the program, and that was “RCIA really only needs two books; the CCC and the bible.” We were given one book to read for RCIA and I felt it was too vague on all the important subjects.
I was luckier than I realized in my RCIA class. I received a Catechism (that great big green book) for free.
 
With, of course, “Believing in Jesus: A Popular Catholic Overview”. No CCC.
 
We got loaner bibles at the beginning and our own big green one at the acceptance rite.
You don’t get a Catechism at the beginning of the class? I really think you should…supposedly, once you are done with the classes you are well-versed in Catholicism. What’s the point of giving out Catechisms afterwards? You should be given one to read along and assist you throughout the process.

And the director thinks “it’s too big”? Oh brother…

I honestly think one of the weakest points of RCIA, in my experience and what I’m reading here, is that the directors feel like they have to dumb everything down.
 
You don’t get a Catechism at the beginning of the class? I really think you should…supposedly, once you are done with the classes you are well-versed in Catholicism. What’s the point of giving out Catechisms afterwards? You should be given one to read along and assist you throughout the process.

And the director thinks “it’s too big”? Oh brother…

I honestly think one of the weakest points of RCIA, in my experience and what I’m reading here, is that the directors feel like they have to dumb everything down.
Actually, sometimes they actually do have to dumb everything down. In my class, we had people with Ph.D’s or Medical degrees but we also had people who had dropped out of high school.

As a result, many programs use other resources which are perfectly dogmatic but more geared towards RCIA such as those put out by the Association of Catechumenal Ministry. There is nothing wrong with this at all, in fact the program that I went through used them to great effect. Those of us who desired, sought out additional resources to study, and our teachers were happy to suggest places to look or would often recommend them. The problem noted above is in the quality and truth of the teachings, not whether they hand out catechisms to everyone who walks through the door.

I would have no problem if they did hand out catechisms, but it is certainly not a requirement for faithful teaching.
 
You don’t get a Catechism at the beginning of the class? I really think you should…supposedly, once you are done with the classes you are well-versed in Catholicism. What’s the point of giving out Catechisms afterwards? You should be given one to read along and assist you throughout the process.

And the director thinks “it’s too big”? Oh brother…

I honestly think one of the weakest points of RCIA, in my experience and what I’m reading here, is that the directors feel like they have to dumb everything down.
As far as I know, they aren’t giving us catechisms at all. We only got a NAB at the acceptance rite, and even with that, I can count on one hand how many times the normal teachers have asked us to open it up.
 
You mentioned the CAtechisms that you gave the students. My priest mentioned the catechisms too. We have only opened up our bibles (not exaggerating) 2-3 times (and only when the deacon or seminarian was teaching, as well as for one guest speaker) and I’m the only one who has (or at least brings) a CCC to each class. I spoke with the leader of the program about two months after it started about the lack of use of the bible and CCC, and he didn’t like the idea of using the CCC because “the thing about the catechism is that it’s so big.”. I brought this up to my priest, who said what I’ve wanted to hear for the longest time from the program, and that was “RCIA really only needs two books; the CCC and the bible.” We were given one book to read for RCIA and I felt it was too vague on all the important subjects.
Your pastor is the one who implements the course curriculum for your parish. You have a rigjt to be taught the faith properly. And the bishop and your pastor have the obligation to see that you are taught the faith properly.
 
Your pastor is the one who implements the course curriculum for your parish. You have a rigjt to be taught the faith properly. And the bishop and your pastor have the obligation to see that you are taught the faith properly.
I agree. However, the priest that I talked to has only been here for two years, and the head pastor has been here for less than a year, so the parish has been undergoing some changes with priests lately. The new pastor has seen that there are changes that have been overdue. I believe that they are making changes as quickly as possible.
 
I agree. However, the priest that I talked to has only been here for two years, and the head pastor has been here for less than a year, so the parish has been undergoing some changes with priests lately. The new pastor has seen that there are changes that have been overdue. I believe that they are making changes as quickly as possible.
You are probably correct and are wise to see thinks this way. Often times, a new pastor comes to a parish, and maybe there are overdue changes needed and people get frustrated that he doesn’t fix everything right away. It is difficult. First of all, it may be very apparent some of the problems to those who have been at the parish a long time, but the pastor still has to get his bearings, so-to-speak. He has to carefully examine everything that is happening, and not rush to judgement. He has to prioritize the changes he finds are necessary. And he has to do things in a very pastoral manner, there may be things that are done wrong, but the lay volunteers are very well meaning and do not realize things are wrong; perhaps they are doing things exactly as they were told and are sincerely trying to do their best. He does not want to alienate these fine people.
So it takes a little time. Yet parishioners, who may be legitimately frustrated with the problems, do not have the patience and are quick to rush to judgement that the new pastor is failing them.
 
I agree. However, the priest that I talked to has only been here for two years, and the head pastor has been here for less than a year, so the parish has been undergoing some changes with priests lately. The new pastor has seen that there are changes that have been overdue. I believe that they are making changes as quickly as possible.
In matters of faith and morals, that goes to the top of the list. Whoever it is that’s teaching RCIA now, and telling you what you say they are teaching re: abortion, don’t have the Church teaching in mind but their own agenda. The pastor could easily step into a class and correct the errors. There is no excuse for leaving error uncorrected in the minds of your fellow classmates. They are going through a discerning process too. Therefore, one needs to have everything on the table, accurately presented, to make a truly informed decision. Easter is coming up fast.
 
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