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Joannm
Guest
I am on our diocesan committee for the catechumenate and we were never notified about such a directive. I don’t think one exists.
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FiannaHeather
Guest
I apologize that I have no link. The information I received on it came from my RCIA coordinator and the parish priest. I am actually off to RCIA in just a bit, so I will ask if there is a reference to the guidance.
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FiannaHeather
Guest
Okay, my RCIA coordinator has sent me generally the information on the changes I mentioned, though so far I have been unable to find the initial source of direction for such changes.
My coordinator was required to attend a workshop this summer as part of her committment. That workshop was put on by the North American Forum on the Catechumenate. Their web site is www.naforum.org and you can click newsletters and read a short discussion of what they refer to as the movement from textbook style RCIA to liturgical style RCIA. It begins on page one of the Spring 2008 newsletter.
I will continue to search for more information on the subject.
My coordinator was required to attend a workshop this summer as part of her committment. That workshop was put on by the North American Forum on the Catechumenate. Their web site is www.naforum.org and you can click newsletters and read a short discussion of what they refer to as the movement from textbook style RCIA to liturgical style RCIA. It begins on page one of the Spring 2008 newsletter.
I will continue to search for more information on the subject.
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kage_ar
Guest
Thank you for the link.
I am a bit skeptical of this North American Forum, this article from Catholic Culture quotes the founder (bold added):
catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=31280
Father Lee told conference participants that his agenda for ecclesial change is closely tied to the process of catechesis. To explain, he quoted the late Father James Dunning, founder of the North American Forum on the Catechumenate. (That organization, created to promote the RCIA, pioneered an “initiation” process that avoids a dogmatic approach to the faith while emphasizing the affective aspects of religion. The program also gives itself a great deal of room in which teachers can interject political or social messages, as many bewildered converts—and would-have-been converts—have discovered.) Father Dunning was not known for his orthodoxy. Reportedly, he once told participants at a seminar in Michigan, “For heaven’s sake, the Eucharist is not literally the body and blood of Jesus… Jesus does not exist in a crumb!” But here Lee recalled Dunning’s remarks at the 1994 conference of the North American Forum for Small Christian Communities: “I see little long-term hope for the catechumenate unless there’s a connection between SCCs before, during, and after initiation.” SCCs, Lee explained, “give a cohesiveness, a sense of who we are, a Catholic identity at a level that, if it takes hold there, will catch on at the parish level and the whole Church.”
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jmcrae
Guest
It’s not Advent yet; you are still in the Period of Inquiry. You’ll start your RCIA Catechism classes after the First Sunday of Advent. There will be a special ceremony for those who haven’t been baptized yet, to enroll them in the Order of Catechumens. After that, you should start seeing them buckle down to a much more academic-style format. Right now, it’s still a casual, welcoming atmosphere for the Period of Inquiry.
That’s really great!
Before you go accusing your teacher of heresy, make sure you understand the actual teaching of the Church that she was discussing. Look it up in the Catechism, and get together with her privately to get clarification.
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jmcrae
Guest
This was a question of a matter of opinion; she certainly was not denying that Jesus is God - only that He didn’t become God at the Incarnation - He always was God, even before He became Jesus, and could certainly have inspired the Old Testament even without ever becoming Incarnate.
Did they actually say “not true” or did they say that the bit with the snake, etc. is most likely allegorical?
Adam and Eve were real people, but the story about them in the Bible wasn’t taken from Eve’s diary - it’s an allegory that was written by Moses many, many centuries later, to explain what happened to them. This is what the Catechism teaches us.
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FiannaHeather
Guest
Certainly, I respect your right to be skeptical, but I am likewise skeptical of the article you linked. The site says that part of their mission is commentary. I am not familiar with Stephanie Block, so I have no idea what her background is, but I do see that the part you bolded is likely her opinion. I can find nothing to show that the NA Forum encourages political or social opinions to be passed from RCIA “teachers” to catechumens/candidates.
I can tell you that my coordinator has offered to give me several relevant articles and the litugical book from which she is now working. I will be meeting with her Wednesday evening and likely reviewing the materials next weekend.
I will report any significant information and background as it relates to our line of discussion, though I suspect the book will simply be a guide for RCIA and give examples of key ideas from the weekly liturgy that can be discussed. The liturgy itself does not seem very controversial, but one never knows.
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jfallaw
Guest
I agree. According to the catechism- 129: As an old saying goes, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New. I think this was the point your teacher might have been trying to make. Perhaps she just isn’t a ‘born teacher’ and has difficulty in conveying the message.
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jfallaw
Guest
I agree again lol. It sounds like you are doing well by reading the Catechism and asking questions. If you are not happy with RCIA class, just be content with knowing that you have the Catechism to consult. As long as they are not teaching outright heresy and blasphemy, just suffer through it, and use the knowledge you gain to help others. You can teach others exactly what you were not taught!
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grandfather
Guest
The person responsible for RCIA programs is the bishop.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Good question.
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grandfather
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBolt1000T
Is there anything that can be done about RCIA as a whole, to make it better? Why are most RCIA groups so out of line with what the Church teaches?
If heresy or orthodoxy is being taught the bishop is responsible.
He can not know what is taught in every religion class week by week. He can be sure that the books and programs are orthodox.
For many years many parents have taken their children out of parish programs, and taught them at home, because they clearly did not teach the faith.
In RCIA there are many converts who already know the faith from a lot of personal study and realize they are being misled on moral teachings and also spiritual matters. Some end up finding better programs and some stay in the programs, but present authentic doctrine from the Cathechism and other documents.
The pendelum is swinging back towards orthodoxy. There is a long way to go, but God will not abandon His Church or the promises He made her.
“I will not leave you orphans. I will send you the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth. I will be with you until the end of time”.
Originally Posted by TBolt1000T
Is there anything that can be done about RCIA as a whole, to make it better? Why are most RCIA groups so out of line with what the Church teaches?
The bishop is the teacher of the faith in every diocese. Part of the ministry of the bishop is to teach, to exercise the teaching authority of the Church in his church. The RCIA programs are his responsiblity and under his control. He is accountable to God for the souls in his care. He oversees the programs and approves or disapproves what is taught.
If heresy or orthodoxy is being taught the bishop is responsible.
He can not know what is taught in every religion class week by week. He can be sure that the books and programs are orthodox.
For many years many parents have taken their children out of parish programs, and taught them at home, because they clearly did not teach the faith.
In RCIA there are many converts who already know the faith from a lot of personal study and realize they are being misled on moral teachings and also spiritual matters. Some end up finding better programs and some stay in the programs, but present authentic doctrine from the Cathechism and other documents.
The pendelum is swinging back towards orthodoxy. There is a long way to go, but God will not abandon His Church or the promises He made her.
“I will not leave you orphans. I will send you the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth. I will be with you until the end of time”.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
TBolt1000T asked: Is there anything that can be done about RCIA as a whole, to make it better? Why are most RCIA groups so out of line with what the Church teaches?
There are so many assumptions in those couple of lines.
What can be done to make RCIA better? I suppose that depends on what you think the problems are. First, some people seem to think that RCIA = catechesis and that’s incorrect. Catechesis is one part of RCIA, the rites themselves are also part. Rites may or may not be done well just as liturgy in general may or may not be done well.
Catechesis is something else. Some people are good teachers some are not. Some people are more knowledgeable and some are less. In my parish – and I assume in most – the people teaching in RCIA are volunteers. We’re lucky to have them and their dedication to reaching out to those who wish to become Catholic. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re experts. And even if they were, there’s no way we can cover everything a Catholic should know in a year or year-and-a-half of education.
Further, RCIA is not just about learning Catholic doctrine and practice. We’re also trying to encourage people to focus on their relationship with Jesus, to develop their prayer lives, and to see how the loving relationship with God is the center of everything.
Finally TBolt1000T asks: Why are most RCIA groups so out of line with what the Church teaches?
Have you done a survey of “most” RCIA groups to know whether they are or are not in line with what the Church teaches? Or is this a survey of your program and the people here who complain about theirs? You originally said that your teachers taught heresy but you’ve had explanations for why you were wrong (or at least possibly wrong).
In my program we have people read chapters of the US Catholic Catechism for Adults relating to the topic of the evening so they have a basic understanding of what the Church teaches. If any of the instructors seem to be going off course I’ll pull out the Catechism and say “this is what the Catechism says on this subject…” Can I guarantee that we get everything absolutely right? No. Nor can I guarantee that even if we say the right things that people will understand them correctly.
I think RCIA is a beautiful process of teaching, mentoring, and celebrating someone into the Church.
There are so many assumptions in those couple of lines.
What can be done to make RCIA better? I suppose that depends on what you think the problems are. First, some people seem to think that RCIA = catechesis and that’s incorrect. Catechesis is one part of RCIA, the rites themselves are also part. Rites may or may not be done well just as liturgy in general may or may not be done well.
Catechesis is something else. Some people are good teachers some are not. Some people are more knowledgeable and some are less. In my parish – and I assume in most – the people teaching in RCIA are volunteers. We’re lucky to have them and their dedication to reaching out to those who wish to become Catholic. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re experts. And even if they were, there’s no way we can cover everything a Catholic should know in a year or year-and-a-half of education.
Further, RCIA is not just about learning Catholic doctrine and practice. We’re also trying to encourage people to focus on their relationship with Jesus, to develop their prayer lives, and to see how the loving relationship with God is the center of everything.
Finally TBolt1000T asks: Why are most RCIA groups so out of line with what the Church teaches?
Have you done a survey of “most” RCIA groups to know whether they are or are not in line with what the Church teaches? Or is this a survey of your program and the people here who complain about theirs? You originally said that your teachers taught heresy but you’ve had explanations for why you were wrong (or at least possibly wrong).
In my program we have people read chapters of the US Catholic Catechism for Adults relating to the topic of the evening so they have a basic understanding of what the Church teaches. If any of the instructors seem to be going off course I’ll pull out the Catechism and say “this is what the Catechism says on this subject…” Can I guarantee that we get everything absolutely right? No. Nor can I guarantee that even if we say the right things that people will understand them correctly.
I think RCIA is a beautiful process of teaching, mentoring, and celebrating someone into the Church.
P
PJM
Guest
Reply:
I have yet to view the other replies to your very thoughful quest for truth. The worst thing that happen’s is that you receive some of this advice twice?
I have been involved in my parish RCIA program for several years. I too at times notice “a bent” for a more “liberal” (hate that word)
instruction of our ROMAN CATHOLIC FAITH.
Sadly, we are still experiencing the effects of “it’s OK to desent from long held Church doctrine and Dogma,” by not a few folks who seem to “know more and or know better.”
Just as sad is the reality that we can “run, but we can’t hide” from these errors. So we must learn to defend the TRUTH, and then to share it.
So here is my advice.
- Document speciffically what your concerns are. Names, dates and speciffically what you feel is the “abuse.” (Are you certain that it is an abuse?)
- Make an appointment with your Pastor (unless of course he is co-teaching the class?)
- Share your concerns as “one who wishes to be taught The Whole Truth” of the matter being discussed. Do so in charity, and do NOT be an accuser; no, your role is simply to inquire about the RC Faith. If asked why are you inquiring: reply, “that the issue was raised and explained at RCIA, but I’m not clear on what was taught.” I simply wish to clarify and get more full understanding of the teaching presented." I was embarrsed to ask durring the class.
4.If your pastor is unable or unwilling to give you the time and answer (VERY UNLIKELY), then if there is a neighboring parish see if you can get an appointment there? Failing this write to your bishop, but again with charity and without accusations. Ask specific questions, do not simpy make statements such as :“so and so said this.” Rather, "I heard this but don’t quite understand it, and it is very impotant to my understanding of the Catholic faith, do you have someone who can answer my question for me in confidence? I’m sure the bisho will have a priest reply to you. - If writting to the bishop, please keep in mind that they are very busy, so the shorter your request, the better.
- Another option is this forum. There are many informed, practcing Roman Catholics who are ready, willing and able to answer your question, here at the Forum.
Stay where you are, pray, pray, pray, and attend Holy Mass as often as possible.
God’s continued blessings,
PJM m.c.
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Snowy
Guest
A Catholic shopping around for a Parish is like a Protestant shopping around for a denomination: very American and very unCatholic. You belong to the Parish that corresponds to your home address. If you don’t like some people in your Parish, the Priest included, learn to love them. If their teachings aren’t true, help them realize it instead of running away.
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grandfather
Guest
This is simply not true. The Church has no restriction that prohibits any Catholic from attending or being affiliated with any parish he or she chooses.
Priests are like any other occupation, doctors, lawyers, engineers, carpenters or artists. There are good ones and bad ones and all in between. There are priests who inspire holiness in people and some drive people from God and the Church.
Different priests have very different effects on children. Some will inspire children to live holy lives, embrace the faith and remain Catholic and some will not. Some will inspire vocations and great love of God through their example of holiness and charity and others will not.
Some parishes are healthy and some not. It is very important for children to see holy priests and be in a spiritually healthy environment. I know two sisters who had eight and ten children respectively and kept Catholic homes. Not one of the eighteen remained Catholic. The parish was a disaster. One priest went to jail. Six or seven abanonded their vows and one pastor got suspended. The religious ed programs were a joke.
In some parishes they go through the outward motions of religion and in others it is the real deal. You want your children to know the real thing, to see good examples of what it is to be Catholic and live out the faith, and to be encouraged to holiness yourself.
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Snowy
Guest
If everybody followed your advice, Grandfather, our Church would effectively split in two; not along the lines of holy vs. unholy as you think, but liberal vs. conservative. The only holiness that children need is their parents’, not their priest’s. If I believe that my priest lacks holiness, my Christian duty is to help him, not to abandon him.
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Schluns
Guest
Ah, but Snowy, don’t you see, that’s the lot that we have fallen into in this day and age. Sometimes you can talk until you are blue in the face. As dioceses become larger and priests are spread thin and across parishes, things become lax and the Bishop is far too busy to know what happens in each parish and the priest is so busy in multiple parishes that they are not aware of the state of their flock. Then if a priest should be removed from a parish, their may not be a priest to replace him and so he remains. Turning a blind eye is definitely not the answer and waiting for it to get better, does not change things.
If you cannot enact change, and it is accepted by the rest of the parish, wanting to maintain status quo, the only change you can enact is leaving.
Sometimes you have to vote with your feet. As for the parish I left, while not there I maintain relations with some of the parishioners and continue to pray for the grace and sanctity of that parish and a return to the traditions of the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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