RCIA program flaws

[tafan]

I copy this from another thread. My response would be serious thread drift and not fair to the other poster, so I start a new thread.

I received a PM recently that just completely demotivated me… I’m not going to reveal the sender out of courtesy and decency, but this is what was said:

---

There is a reason why your parents are right to be concerned about how quickly you make the decision to swim the Tiber, and it has to do with the average American Protestant who converts to Catholicism. Please allow me to tell you something about this average person- and by all means, run it past your RCIA director or priest or whoever. It’s true.

The average American Protestant who converts to Catholicism is a devout Christian who takes his/her faith very seriously, has impeccable character, and researches Catholicism diligently for at least a year or two before deciding to be baptized Catholic. During that time, this person (probably you) will wrestle with whatever misgivings and disagreements they have without taking shortcuts. You might even have to deal with some personal cost within your own family, or social stigma with unpredictable friends. You are already well-rooted in Bible study and prayer, and you have a personal relationship with God. But now you’ve discovered and fallen in love with the things that Catholicism offers and Protestantism doesn’t really have- men like Augustine, Aquinas, Newman, JP2, B16. The beauty of European architecture, the sculptures, paintings, and basilicas. The solemnity of the Mass, the feeling of reverence you get from Gregorian chant and things that are said in Latin. Maybe some of those things seemed weird to you before, but now you love them and you feel incomplete without them. And- perhaps more than anything else- you’ve come to believe in the authority of the Catholic clergy and their ability to dispense grace through the sacraments. They can assuage guilt, connect you to the Body of Christ like nothing else, and make you feel full and complete. (Or so you’re thinking right now). Basically, for you, it’s not about doing it before you change your mind. It’s about doing it because you know you’ve found what you need and you can’t imagine being anywhere else.

There’s a lot of people who have been where you are. (Three times as many Americans are moving in the opposite direction at any time, but that’s not the point). Most of them get baptized on Easter, which as you know is quite the event in a Catholic parish. Again, all of these people are as devout as you, most of them have spent more time on it than you, and nearly all of them have more reason than you to think a Catholic baptism will lead to them being Catholic for the rest of their lives.

But here’s the thing. For half of those Tiber swimmers, the Easter of their baptism will be the only Easter that they spend in a Catholic parish. Half! Will leave Catholicism (nearly all returning to some form of Protestantism). Within the first year! That number goes up to 60 after two years, 65 after three, and rises to over two-thirds somewhere between year 4 and 5. So in your class of Tiber swimmers- all of them being converts to Catholicism, mind you- 1 in 2 will be Protestant within a year and it will be a 2:1 ratio of Protestants to Catholics within 5 years. Also, you might be wondering if college-age kids are more likely to revert (in the unconventional sense of the word). The answer is yeah. Yes, you are. Also, there’s several different ways for an American to become a Catholic, which allows you to group them as Cradle Catholics or converts or reverts and so forth. You want to know what you have to do in order to have the very best odds of converting from Catholicism to Protestantism? This is it- just start as a Protestant, convert to Catholicism, then wait for it to happen.

Now we get to the part where we try to figure out why. This is where I’m going to come up with very different answers than what you’ll get from any Catholic you talk to. Here’s the deal- I’ll keep it short and sweet. **There are two main reasons why Protestants usually don’t stick with Catholicism. One- the sacraments don’t do the things you’ve heard about. They just don’t. You’ll see. Keep an eye out for it. Catholic priests rely on their efficacy almost exclusively, and they usually don’t offer much else. Problem is, the sacraments don’t do what they say they do. **The results are predictable- see the above paragraph. Two- with your experience as a Protestant, you do, in fact, know what you’re missing. You might not feel this way now, and you might not see it until after you convert, but Protestantism does it better. The whole thing with helping you be close to God, live out your faith in a way that’s complete and genuine, and have a meaningful connection to fellow Christians. You’ll find out. You in the right Protestant church is a better Christian than you in any Catholic parish could ever be. Odds are pretty good that you find that out rather quickly, too.

Of course, there’s a slim chance that the way you feel now is exactly how it will really be in the long term. But probably not. Least you can do is take the time to better your odds from their currently abysmal state. Or you can look before you leap- and decide not to leap.

---

My faith was completely shot on reading that post, I feel almost depressed…

I think this is half true and half false. The first part about the average Protestant coming to Catholocism studies and researches the Catholic church for a couple of years is certainly false. Yes, you see that story again and again on The Journey Home, but those are mainly Protestant ministers. The average person entering RCIA has very little idea about what the Church is about, what it teaches, the sacramenst, the Church fathers, etc,etc

to be continued…

 

[tafan]

…continuation:

Unfortunately, the part about the half the converts returning to a Protestant church within a year or two, I would not be surprised at all if that is true. The anedoctal experience I know of, friends of mine or my wife who converted, I think the figure of 1/2 is about right.

The Church in the US really needs to evaluate its RCIA program. It is a failure, as far as I can tell. It has several fautls. I have been throught the program at a neighboring parish, when I sponsored a friend several years ago (who is still a devout Catholic BTW). I have also seen how it is done at our parish. I suspect the problems are common.

1. The weekly classes are structured similiar to the Catechism, The Creed, Sacraments, 10 commandments, prayer life. This is a good structure. The Sacraments are done OK, but the rest are really weak. Throughout the program, there is an overriding tendency to make us seem “not really different”. As such, there is a subtle indoctrination that the Church is not really that different.
2. The weekly dismissal at mass is absurd. It smacks of ancientism; heck that is the explanation of why it is done, that is what the early Church did. But it does not work. The group reflectiosn that follow the dismissla on the readings and Gospel fall into “what did it mean to you?” and do nothing but encourage a Protestant style personal-interpretation of Scripture. And we wonder why they go back to Protestantism? Also, there is no reason why they should be missing out on the Liturgy of the Eucharist every week. It is still efficacious, even if they do not receive communion. And it gives them the message that mass is not all that important, hence the Sunday obligaion becomes immediately nothing more than a Church rule.
3. At most parishes, the schedule is wholly inflexible. My brother-in-law had to wait years to enter the church, because his work schedule did not allow RCIA classes, and he was repeatedly told it was his only option.
4. Many people are already baptized Christians. I have been censured on this forum for making this point before, but I will do so again. They are baptized, there is no reason they should be forced to wait for an arbitrary 1 or 2 weeks before the Easter vigil to avail themselves to the sacrament of reconciliation. Do not tell me it is because they are not full Catholic, I understand that. Neither are they when they are finally allowed to go. If they happen to come to the understanding they need the sacrament (and the classes don’t necessarily do this), they are told it is not available. Do we wonder why the sacraments do not seem important to the converts.

I will make this final point. I love the Journey Home program on EWTN. I have watched it for years. As these converts tell their story, I never once remember RCIA being a significant part of their journey. If it is mentioned, it is only in passing, as if it was a hurdle they simply had to cross.

I know that Catholic Answers has a lot of good converts. I know that on this forum, you can get away with questioning any Church teaching, but you stand to be censored for questioning RCIA. I don’t care. It is flawed, and it needs to be openly discussed.

This may be wrong, but even calling it a Rite seems questionable, as I believe it is only followed as this right in the United States; the document of the Rite comes from the USCCB, not the Vatican. The Bishops really need to do a study and examine its effectiveness. They would not like what they find.

 

[SurlyMermaid]

Tafan,

You’ve made some excellent points. I’m new but I agree with a lot of whatyouve said.

 

[tafan]

Tafan,

You’ve made some excellent points. I’m new but I agree with a lot of whatyouve said.

Thank you. I see you are going through RCIA this year? Welcome to the Church!!!
I should add this, I mean none of this to disparage the many volunteers who work on RCIA teams throughout the country. They all mean well and I have known a few who really work to make up for some of the above flaws.

 

[GunnerQuick]

Well a little background about me first, I was a non-baptisted but raised luthern ( parents wern’t all that religious) when I decided to start looking into Catholicism after the birth of my son, I indeed did study for almost 2 years. I looked at everything that I was getting myself into as well as reading luther to make sure of what i was raised with, i could agree with; I ound flaws…

When I signed up for RCIA, there were classes that went every week at the same time [BHowever** if we missed a class or two that was no biggy, our priests had 3 or 4 make up classes throughout the year to get everyone caught up and late comers up to speed.

During the Mass we where encouraged to stay the entire time and where taught the prayer for spirtual communion. We where never dismissed after the litergy of the word.

Even though I wasn’t baptised so couldn’t join the church until Easter I understood why they made everyone wait, Its a big decision and it takes the nessesary time to understand, Truely understand what it is that you are asking for. so as not to jump into something that you are not prepared for.

From what I have heard the RCIA program is run by diocese. so its not the program itself, but the implimentation that needs to be adressed in your particular location. As for the original message, he sounds like someone that was dissatisfied with something the church teaches or is simply there out of spite to turn people from the church

Hope this helps
Pax,
Blake

 

[martininthefiel]

I think the problem lies not with RCIA itself, but in the woeful follow-up done after Easter Vigil. Most Catholic parishes are not very good at providing opportunities for fellowship, such as coffee hours, dinners, potlucks, etc. It would be much easier to hold-on to people who feel a part of things, rather than apart from things.

It would also help if clergy, or catechists made more of an attempt to follow-up. It is hard to keep the momentum going. Relationships mean more than abstractions.

 

[Snugglebugmom]

I think at least part of the problem, is that RCIA isn’t streamlined. There are no Vatican guidelines that parishes have to stick to. If the information shared and the standards upheld were the same across the board, there would be less confusion among RCIA candidates. And I think that there are often grave errors being taught. I went through RCIA two years ago, to reacquaint myself with my faith, and I was shocked as to what was taught. For one thing, we completely skipped over the seriousness of receiving the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin, or the explanation of what mortal sin is and that it is in fact not at all hard to commit one. Artificial birth control and family planning was skipped as well. When one of the candidates stated that he and his wife were considering hiring a surrogate mother to help them have a baby, the priest (the priest!!) said that that sounded like a good solution. One of the teachers told a catechumen with Buddhist parents:“Don’t lose all of your heritage when you convert, there is a lot of good in Buddhism, it’s not irreconcilable with Catholicism.” There were many, many mistakes like that.
Stricter standards, the obligation to stick to Church teaching, and a RCIA program that is regulated from above would help a lot, IMHO.

 

[tafan]

Well a little background about me first, I was a non-baptisted but raised luthern ( parents wern’t all that religious) when I decided to start looking into Catholicism after the birth of my son, I indeed did study for almost 2 years. I looked at everything that I was getting myself into as well as reading luther to make sure of what i was raised with, i could agree with; I ound flaws…

When I signed up for RCIA, there were classes that went every week at the same time [BHowever** if we missed a class or two that was no biggy, our priests had 3 or 4 make up classes throughout the year to get everyone caught up and late comers up to speed.

During the Mass we where encouraged to stay the entire time and where taught the prayer for spirtual communion. We where never dismissed after the litergy of the word.

Even though I wasn’t baptised so couldn’t join the church until Easter I understood why they made everyone wait, Its a big decision and it takes the nessesary time to understand, Truely understand what it is that you are asking for. so as not to jump into something that you are not prepared for.

From what I have heard the RCIA program is run by diocese. so its not the program itself, but the implimentation that needs to be adressed in your particular location. As for the original message, he sounds like someone that was dissatisfied with something the church teaches or is simply there out of spite to turn people from the church

Hope this helps
Pax,
Blake

Blake, It sounds like your parish addressed at least one of the flaws I mentioned, weekly dismissal. But this is not a Diocesan thing, the rite as prescribed by the USCCB specifies the dismissal. It was your parish, rightfully so IMO, who did not follow the rite.

I do not have a problem with the waiting to be received into the Church until Easter. My point was specifically about baptized Christians having to wait until late in Lent for reconciliation. Our second graders at school make their first communion after easter, typically late april, early May. Yet, they make their first confession in January, and then go monthly after that. Imagine a baptized Christin who is going through RCIA, has come to understand the Church’s moral teachings and accept them, and then committs a mortal sin. He has to wait for months to go to confession. It makes no sense at all.

 

[tafan]

I think at least part of the problem, is that RCIA isn’t streamlined. There are no Vatican guidelines that parishes have to stick to. If the information shared and the standards upheld were the same across the board, there would be less confusion among RCIA candidates. And I think that there are often grave errors being taught. I went through RCIA two years ago, to reacquaint myself with my faith, and I was shocked as to what was taught. For one thing, we completely skipped over the seriousness of receiving the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin, or the explanation of what mortal sin is and that it is in fact not at all hard to commit one. Artificial birth control and family planning was skipped as well. When one of the candidates stated that he and his wife were considering hiring a surrogate mother to help them have a baby, the priest (the priest!!) said that that sounded like a good solution. One of the teachers told a catechumen with Buddhist parents:“Don’t lose all of your heritage when you convert, there is a lot of good in Buddhism, it’s not irreconcilable with Catholicism.” There were many, many mistakes like that.
Stricter standards, the obligation to stick to Church teaching, and a RCIA program that is regulated from above would help a lot, IMHO.

Yes, all of the things skipped, this is part of the fear of “seeming different” as if they will be driven away if we actually tell them the truth ahead of time. So then they have entered the Church and all of this seems like arbitrary rules on our behavior. And the Church is not that different than Protestant churches, so why not leave and go to a protestant church again?

When I was a sponsor for my friend, I had the same type of experiences. We often left work together on Monday night to go to the class. Afterwards, since we were alread going to arrive home after our families were in bed, we would stop for a beer and it was there that I often explained to him some of the key points that were skipped over or even worse yet misrepresented.

I know of two ladies who converted simply because they were good friends to my dear wife, and it was her personal example of kindness and charity which led them to the Church. Both of them lasted less than two years. It was not lack of followup, they had little understanding of the faith at the beginning.

When I complained about the time being inflexible it was not that it was too long of duration. It takes time.

 

[nickybr38]

Not all RCIA programs are created equal.

I’ve made it no secret on these forums that my RCIA experience was disappointing at best, completely useless at worst.

RCIA taught me little, expect how to be patient.

I agree that the RCIA program needs to be majorly overhauled… at least where I live. I don’t know what other people’s RCIA programs are like so I dare not comment on every RCIA program throughout North America.

What did surprise is that RCIA leaders ARE taught to have us ‘explore’ what Scripture is making us ‘feel’. That was surprising to me. That seems completely… illogical and fluffy to me. What purpose does that serve?

You cannot force someone to feel something. You cannot force Scripture to inspire emotion. By the time I reached RCIA I had gone through my emotional journey already. I had found God in my heart already… by the time I reached RCIA I was looking for mental food, not emotional food.

I think the problem lies in treating all candidates like catechumens… and catechumens like candidates. It just doesn’t work. We are different creatures and have different needs. Catechumens (those who are not baptized and were not raised Christian) need to experience the love of God, they need the emotional and spiritual journey… candidates have already been through the emotional side of things and are seeking to have their heads filled with knowledge and truth.

It seems to me my RCIA class was treating me like a newborn babe when I was in fact a toddler… and I would imagine many others are treated in such a way.

That’s a problem. A major, huge problem.

RCIA had nothing to do with my conversion. It was, indeed, just a hurtle I had to jump through before I could reach home. My conversion is due only to the grace of God and the help of a few good friends who embraced me and helped me learn once I made the decision to convert (friends from this forum in fact!).

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

…continuation:

Unfortunately, the part about the half the converts returning to a Protestant church within a year or two, I would not be surprised at all if that is true. The anedoctal experience I know of, friends of mine or my wife who converted, I think the figure of 1/2 is about right.

The Church in the US really needs to evaluate its RCIA program. It is a failure, as far as I can tell. It has several fautls. I have been throught the program at a neighboring parish, when I sponsored a friend several years ago (who is still a devout Catholic BTW). I have also seen how it is done at our parish. I suspect the problems are common.

1. The weekly classes are structured similiar to the Catechism, The Creed, Sacraments, 10 commandments, prayer life. This is a good structure. The Sacraments are done OK, but the rest are really weak. Throughout the program, there is an overriding tendency to make us seem “not really different”. As such, there is a subtle indoctrination that the Church is not really that different.
2. The weekly dismissal at mass is absurd. It smacks of ancientism; heck that is the explanation of why it is done, that is what the early Church did. But it does not work. The group reflectiosn that follow the dismissla on the readings and Gospel fall into “what did it mean to you?” and do nothing but encourage a Protestant style personal-interpretation of Scripture. And we wonder why they go back to Protestantism? Also, there is no reason why they should be missing out on the Liturgy of the Eucharist every week. It is still efficacious, even if they do not receive communion. And it gives them the message that mass is not all that important, hence the Sunday obligaion becomes immediately nothing more than a Church rule.
3. At most parishes, the schedule is wholly inflexible. My brother-in-law had to wait years to enter the church, because his work schedule did not allow RCIA classes, and he was repeatedly told it was his only option.
4. Many people are already baptized Christians. I have been censured on this forum for making this point before, but I will do so again. They are baptized, there is no reason they should be forced to wait for an arbitrary 1 or 2 weeks before the Easter vigil to avail themselves to the sacrament of reconciliation. Do not tell me it is because they are not full Catholic, I understand that. Neither are they when they are finally allowed to go. If they happen to come to the understanding they need the sacrament (and the classes don’t necessarily do this), they are told it is not available. Do we wonder why the sacraments do not seem important to the converts.

I will make this final point. I love the Journey Home program on EWTN. I have watched it for years. As these converts tell their story, I never once remember RCIA being a significant part of their journey. If it is mentioned, it is only in passing, as if it was a hurdle they simply had to cross.

I know that Catholic Answers has a lot of good converts. I know that on this forum, you can get away with questioning any Church teaching, but you stand to be censored for questioning RCIA. I don’t care. It is flawed, and it needs to be openly discussed.

This may be wrong, but even calling it a Rite seems questionable, as I believe it is only followed as this right in the United States; the document of the Rite comes from the USCCB, not the Vatican. The Bishops really need to do a study and examine its effectiveness. They would not like what they find.

I’m involved with RCIA at my parish, and I applaud you for saying it like it is. Completely agree with your comments on the dismissal. My own wife is a convert, and her comment was “A long as I’m not interested in Catholicism, you let me stay; as soon as I show interest in converting, you exclude me!”

Our deacon does a lot of 1-on-1 meetings to supplement - or in some cases, to take the place of - the RCIA “classes” in our place. His feeling is that it’s impossible to meet the needs and address the spiritual journey of individuals in a “class” setting when the group runs the spectrum from the unchurched to deeply involved Episcopalians. They have different needs, ask different questions, and benefit from individual attention. The deacon also makes himself available evenings 1-on-1 to address differing work schedules, thus avoiding the “inflexibility” problem.

 

[nickybr38]

I’m involved with RCIA at my parish, and I applaud you for saying it like it is. Completely agree with your comments on the dismissal. My own wife is a convert, and her comment was “A long as I’m not interested in Catholicism, you let me stay; as soon as I show interest in converting, you exclude me!”

Our deacon does a lot of 1-on-1 meetings to supplement - or in some cases, to take the place of - the RCIA “classes” in our place. His feeling is that it’s impossible to meet the needs and address the spiritual journey of individuals in a “class” setting when the group runs the spectrum from the unchurched to deeply involved Episcopalians. They have different needs, ask different questions, and benefit from individual attention. The deacon also makes himself available evenings 1-on-1 to address differing work schedules, thus avoiding the “inflexibility” problem.

Wow, sounds like a great deacon.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Unfortunately, the part about the half the converts returning to a Protestant church within a year or two, I would not be surprised at all if that is true. The anedoctal experience I know of, friends of mine or my wife who converted, I think the figure of 1/2 is about right.

I would be interested in seeing statistics but I’m not aware of any real studies that have been done. It would be very informative to know how many people who go through RCIA are practicing Catholics after a year, five years, ten years, etc.

The Church in the US really needs to evaluate its RCIA program. It is a failure, as far as I can tell. It has several fautls. I have been throught the program at a neighboring parish, when I sponsored a friend several years ago (who is still a devout Catholic BTW). I have also seen how it is done at our parish. I suspect the problems are common.

You’re talking about a couple of different things here.

There is the actual rite as promulgated by the Church. And then there is RCIA as practiced in parishes. My observation is that there is wide variance between what the rite says and how parishes implement it.

The rite says, for example, that catechumens (unbaptized people) should spend at least a year in the catechumenate. That’s a year after the Rite of Acceptance and before the Rite of Election. Most of the parishes in my area have people start RCIA in September, go through the Rite of Acceptance in December, and go through the Rite of Election in March. That’s not a year in the catechumenate, it’s barely three months (depending on when Lent starts).

1. The weekly classes are structured similiar to the Catechism, The Creed, Sacraments, 10 commandments, prayer life. This is a good structure. The Sacraments are done OK, but the rest are really weak.

This may be the experience in your parish, but it’s not necessarily universal. All the rite calls for is a “suitable catechesis.” There isn’t a syllabus developed either by the universal Church or the Church in the US.

In part the rite calls for an apprenticeship in the Christian life and that’s something we do in my parish. People visit different groups and ministries to find out what it means to live as a Catholic Christian. We have guests come in to talk about themselves and how they live as Catholics as well as to talk about different topics. RCIA isn’t intended to be merely a classroom experience, but also a formational opportunity.

1. The weekly dismissal at mass is absurd.

Someone coming from Protestantism is presumably baptized so they shouldn’t be participating in the dismissals. Or they shouldn’t be required to participate; maybe they would want to take part anyway.

What follows the homily is the Creed and the Prayers of the Faithful. Catechumens don’t “own” the Creed yet since they’re not baptized and they’re not part of the faithful. Those who are already baptized are in a different situation.

1. At most parishes, the schedule is wholly inflexible. My brother-in-law had to wait years to enter the church, because his work schedule did not allow RCIA classes, and he was repeatedly told it was his only option.

RCIA is intended to be very flexible and meet the needs of the participants. On a practical level that may mean someone needs to come to the scheduled classes simply because parishes don’t have enough catechists available to offer one-on-one instruction. But that’s an individual parish situation, not something mandated by the rite. I have offered to meet with people one-on-one if that’s what they need. In the cases where I’ve done this, the people have turned me down. I don’t think they really want that kind of intensive formation.

1. Many people are already baptized Christians. I have been censured on this forum for making this point before, but I will do so again. They are baptized, there is no reason they should be forced to wait for an arbitrary 1 or 2 weeks before the Easter vigil to avail themselves to the sacrament of reconciliation.

Again, this is an individual parish decision. There’s nothing in the rite that says people should be received into the Church at the Easter Vigil. In this archdiocese (Los Angeles) we have been specifically instructed that those who are already baptized should be received at any other time but not at the Easter Vigil. Even with that kind of instruction, most of the parishes around me have everyone – baptized and non-baptized – come into the Church at the Vigil.

In my parish we have people received into the Church at various times during the year. There’s no point in telling them to wait until Easter if they’re ready in September.

This may be wrong, but even calling it a Rite seems questionable, as I believe it is only followed as this right in the United States; the document of the Rite comes from the USCCB, not the Vatican. The Bishops really need to do a study and examine its effectiveness. They would not like what they find.

The Rite itself was promulgated by the Congregation for Divine Worship. In other words, the Vatican. The Rite with adaptations for the US was approved by the USCCB.

One of the big problems with RCIA in many parishes is that it is run by well intentioned volunteers. They do their best with limited resources (where the resources include knowledge of the ritual text, time, money, and people). I’m currently working on my certification in Christian Initiation and am being supported by my pastor in this effort. But there aren’t a lot of people in the position of having the time to attend the classes and having the financial resources to pay for them.

 

[puzzleannie]

…
This may be wrong, but even calling it a Rite seems questionable, as I believe it is only followed as this right in the United States; the document of the Rite comes from the USCCB, not the Vatican. The Bishops really need to do a study and examine its effectiveness. They would not like what they find.

the RCIA ritual book comes from the universal Church and contains adaptations by the bishops of each country, so the book sold in the US is written with those in mind, but NO it is not something concocted by the US bishops

I will not respond directly to your other points which are mainly drawn from personal experience and therefore not valid as a criticism of the RCIA per se as envisioned and promulgated by the Church

Please decide if this is going to be another personal experience thread, which certainly has value for those going through RCIA, or a critique of the RCIA itself.

Bringing up parishes who implement the RCIA improperly, have flawed catechesis, flawed catechists, and misinterpret the rites is not helpful if the purpose of the discussion is to analyze the RCIA itself.

forgot to say, Welcome Home

I think the problem lies not with RCIA itself, but in the woeful follow-up done after Easter Vigil. Most Catholic parishes are not very good at providing opportunities for fellowship, such as coffee hours, dinners, potlucks, etc. It would be much easier to hold-on to people who feel a part of things, rather than apart from things.

It would also help if clergy, or catechists made more of an attempt to follow-up. It is hard to keep the momentum going. Relationships mean more than abstractions.

in the several parishes where I have served in RCIA ministry for over 20 years the after Easter mystagogy and follow-up is excellent. What is woeful is the lack of participation the part of the neophytes. I can guarantee and everyone without exception I know of who is involved in RCIA says the same, that those who do not participate in mystagy have a better than 90% chance of leaving the Church within 5 years. It is without doubt the most critical part of the process as you wisely observe.

 

[kburns0016]

wow…that PM just broke my heart, it really did. I am so frustrated and sad I am almost in tears…that was terrible.The bitterness coming off of that was in waves strong enough to knock a person down. I have a feeling that was the entire intention. knocking down the hopefulness that you, the OP ,were feeling! I am saddened that person appears to have had a somewhat negative experience but they seem to be working under some serious misconceptions!!! Maybe, just maybe, that person hasnt even been through the RCIA process personally but they have done some research and read some statistics with the intention of building an arsenal to attack fledgling Catholics because of personal bigotry, unfortunately they would not be the first person in my experience to have that twisted logic and mindset.Being a convert myself I do know the other side of the fence so to say…I know what I am “missing” not attending a protestant sermon/sunday school on Sundays. And I dont want THAT back for anything. I dont know the exact factual statistics about reversion …but what I do know about statistics is that you can find one to back up ANY theory you might have!!!The “IT” they (protestants)are doing better is simply showmanship/entertainment value. Just because it feels better doesnt make that mode of worship what God intended for us. Some Catholic parishes might lack a sense of community available in your local protestant church but that is NOT the fault of mother Church. And it would do good to remember that no 2 parishes are exactly alike.I never had a more personal relationship with Jesus that I do today…all thanks to finding the fullness of the truth in the Catholic faith!
I dont believe for one minute that MOST people entering RCIA have all the qualities and knowledge that was mentioned, the crack about immpeccable character was almost too much! and the snipe that most of those people have “spent more time on it that you” seriously??? it sounded like an almost personal insult hidden in a vast array of blabber.And besides, it seems that if converts are extremely knowledgeable about Scripture it often comes with years of personal interpretation/poor instruction that can lead to serious misunderstandings of the intended meaning. I would take everything that PM’er said with LESS than a grain of salt. When it creeps back into your mind remember the tone of hostility and animosity that was fairly clear although they tried to hide it . If the person is as bitter as it seems then it might be best to consider how fair, just or even REALISTIC their assessment might be! The sacraments do exactly as God intends them to, bringing us closer to Him…if we dont misuse or abuse them. They are tools like any other,prone to improper application by man. Think of a hammer, would you use it to do the job of a screwdriver??? in some instances it might complete the task but it will not be as expedient or efficent and using the PROPER tool in the correct manner! The purpose of the sacraments is to help us get to Heaven. The tools are all there but we must learn about the how and why of using them to complete the task!!!

Maybe my family was just blessed but the RCIA we went through was incredibly different that what was described…our priest made a point to tell us that if it was our intention to be lukewarm Catholics it would be better for everyone if we just turned around and left before we even started, the Church needed no more lukewarm anything. For a split second I was shocked…absolutely shocked, then I realized the value in what he said…if i was gonna be lukewarm I might as well be somewhere else anyway!!! Our sponsor was a member of the parish who was a convert himself and incredibly passionate about his faith. He attended almost every single class with us!!! Our relationship has progressed much in the last 2 1/2 years, hubby and I are now god-parents to his youngest child but being introduced to and eventually paired with someone so ferocious about their faith was amazing!!! We were constantly challenged to know not only what Catholics believe but why. It kept us on our toes and forced us to actively seek out the roots of the early Christian church. I can not even imagine the dumbing down of doctrine (DURING the faith formation process, no less) to make us seem not so different. That is unspeakable…different is what we were meant to be! Radically different …OP you are in my prayers, have faith that God will support your efforts to get closer to His heart!

 

[Nigel7]

I am currently in RCIA. While every parish does it differently (and I do think that more uniformity throughout the Church in America for RCIA programs would be a good idea) I will respond point by point to tafan’s post as it pertains to my personal experience thus far.

1. The weekly classes are structured similiar to the Catechism, The Creed, Sacraments, 10 commandments, prayer life. This is a good structure. The Sacraments are done OK, but the rest are really weak. **Throughout the program, there is an overriding tendency to make us seem “not really different”. ** As such, there is a subtle indoctrination that the Church is not really that different.

Not really the case at my parish. I’ve gotten more of a sense of how radically different that Catholicism is compared to protestantism. Last night’s class on the Eucharist was certainly no exception, of course. The priests instructing our classes do not gloss over the differences between the Catholic Church and protestant, and I am grateful for that.

1. The weekly dismissal at mass is absurd. It smacks of ancientism; heck that is the explanation of why it is done, that is what the early Church did. But it does not work. The group reflectiosn that follow the dismissla on the readings and Gospel fall into “what did it mean to you?” and do nothing but encourage a Protestant style personal-interpretation of Scripture. And we wonder why they go back to Protestantism? Also, there is no reason why they should be missing out on the Liturgy of the Eucharist every week. It is still efficacious, even if they do not receive communion. And it gives them the message that mass is not all that important, hence the Sunday obligaion becomes immediately nothing more than a Church rule.

Personally, I think that if people are serious about becoming Catholic that they should be attending holy mass beyond just Sunday. I try to attend whenever possible during the week too when I can be present for and gain a greater understanding of the Eucharist/real presence and communion (I kneel in prayer while others take communion).
But I do think that it is proper to dismiss catechumen and candidates on Sunday before communion, as I’ve found that most of them do not understand the Eucharist/real presence. Out of respect for the body and blood of Christ then I think that they should study and understand what it (Eucharist/communion) truly is before being present for it on Sunday, in my opinion.

1. At most parishes, the schedule is wholly inflexible. My brother-in-law had to wait years to enter the church, because his work schedule did not allow RCIA classes, and he was repeatedly told it was his only option.

There are several people in my class who the parish instructs individually, outside of the normal class, because of their work schedules.

1. Many people are already baptized Christians. I have been censured on this forum for making this point before, but I will do so again. They are baptized, there is no reason they should be forced to wait for an arbitrary 1 or 2 weeks before the Easter vigil to avail themselves to the sacrament of reconciliation. Do not tell me it is because they are not full Catholic, I understand that. Neither are they when they are finally allowed to go. If they happen to come to the understanding they need the sacrament (and the classes don’t necessarily do this), they are told it is not available. Do we wonder why the sacraments do not seem important to the converts.

It seems that there is an arbitrary line which defines when a person is allowed to participate in the sacraments of reconciliation (and communion), and this appears to vary from person to person in a lot of cases.
I think that a full understanding and belief in the sacraments (and accepting the teachings of the CC) are the most important thing. But I see every week, for example, a person in my class who has already had their first communion at an early age (though still not confirmed) who stays behind and takes communion while the rest of us are dismissed for BOTW, yet they really have no understanding of the real presence, and they also openly disagree with the teachings of the Church.

I will wait, of course. I have prayed for patience every day throughout this process, and Easter isn’t far off (yay!). But I have found that in some respects the line is blurry concerning exactly who can and cannot participate in the sacraments of reconciliation and communion.

I recently opened a thread related to this matter - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8861300#post8861300

 

[tafan]

The Rite itself was promulgated by the Congregation for Divine Worship. In other words, the Vatican. The Rite with adaptations for the US was approved by the USCCB.
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Thankyou for the correction. When I asked to see how the RCIA was structure I was given the USCCB document, and I asked about a vatican document and was told there was not one, that this is how it was done in the US.

 

[tafan]

I It seems that there is an arbitrary line which defines when a person is allowed to participate in the sacraments of reconciliation (and communion), and this appears to vary from person to person in a lot of cases.
I think that a full understanding and belief in the sacraments (and accepting the teachings of the CC) are the most important thing. But I see every week, for example, a person in my class who has already had their first communion at an early age (though still not confirmed) who stays behind and takes communion while the rest of us are dismissed for BOTW, yet they really have no understanding of the real presence, and they also openly disagree with the teachings of the Church.

I will wait, of course. I have prayed for patience every day throughout this process, and Easter isn’t far off (yay!). But I have found that in some respects the line is blurry concerning exactly who can and cannot participate in the sacraments of reconciliation and communion.

I recently opened a thread related to this matter - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8861300#post8861300

Nigel, looked at your thread, my point was specifically reconciliation. I can understand waiting until the Easter Vigil for First Communion; but to answer the specific question in the title of your other thread, it is obviously no.

 

[tafan]

I will not respond directly to your other points which are mainly drawn from personal experience and therefore not valid as a criticism of the RCIA per se as envisioned and promulgated by the Church

Please decide if this is going to be another personal experience thread, which certainly has value for those going through RCIA, or a critique of the RCIA itself.

Bringing up parishes who implement the RCIA improperly, have flawed catechesis, flawed catechists, and misinterpret the rites is not helpful if the purpose of the discussion is to analyze the RCIA itself.

.

It is both a critique of the rite itself (eg the dismissal) and a critique/questions of flawed implementations. As myself and another poster has noted, there are no formal studies, so all we can do is draw on personal experiences.

I am glad there are parishes who have priests teaching the classes and deacons doing individual instructions; but in general, I believe the problems are widespread. So if a large number of parishes are implementing RCIA improperly, that in and of itself shows there is a problem in the Church with the program.

 

[nickybr38]

It is both a critique of the rite itself (eg the dismissal) and a critique/questions of flawed implementations. As myself and another poster has noted, there are no formal studies, so all we can do is draw on personal experiences.

I am glad there are parishes who have priests teaching the classes and deacons doing individual instructions; but in general, I believe the problems are widespread. So if a large number of parishes are implementing RCIA improperly, that in and of itself shows there is a problem in the Church with the program.

I would also argue that if the RCIA program is being implemented improperly people are probably getting bored and walking out, which is why there is such low attendance. I mean, I hate to say it, but if someone feels the program is a waste of time they’ll go study on their own. I know I was tempted (SO TEMPTED) to just drop the program but my parish made it clear if I didn’t attend RCIA I wasn’t going to be received so I put up with it (and I attended all but three classes. I only missed those three due to the flu).