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m134e5
Guest
I’m not sure there’s a rule on it, but who wants to see a grown man (especially a priest!) touching a woman’s bare foot?!
RE: Do the rules permit the foot washing of women on Holy Thursday?
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2shelbys
Guest
You did not know so you are not culpable for the error. It is this kind of thing that has the Pope looking into liturgical changes and oversight that will bring everyone into compliance.
I never knew this was wrong before becuase it was always done wrong at my parish. For as long as I could remember… and I’ve been going to the same parish since I was about 7.
Here is how they do it…
The congregation lines up in much the same manner as for communion - meaning about 4 groups. You sit down and the person who went before you washes your feet. Then you wash the feet of the person before you. I never knew this was wrong. Now that I do, I’ll send a letter and refuse to participate if it isn’t changed.
I guess I didn’t really do anything wrong before since I didn’t know I was doing anything wrong, but I still feel embarressed. And a bit angry that my parish would teach me the wrong way.
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lak611
Guest
Is it ok for young boys to have their feet washed? By young, I mean, not even old enough to receive Holy Communion yet. Last year, two kindergarten boys had their feet washed in my parish.
C
calchiquita
Guest
usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/general/feet.shtml
I interpret this to say that in the U.S. at least, it is permissible that women as well as men can be involved. Am I right or wrong?
I interpret this to say that in the U.S. at least, it is permissible that women as well as men can be involved. Am I right or wrong?
D
dylanschrader
Guest
The rubrics use viri for the rite. See, for example, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=137273
The question asked of the BCL, which is referenced in the link was “What is the significance of the Holy Thursday foot washing rite?” The response to this question simply stated that the practice of women’s having their feet washed has developed in the U.S. It does not say that it is permitted.
For an in depth explanation of the various statements and who has what authority, read:
adoremus.org/97-03_pokorsky.htm
The question asked of the BCL, which is referenced in the link was “What is the significance of the Holy Thursday foot washing rite?” The response to this question simply stated that the practice of women’s having their feet washed has developed in the U.S. It does not say that it is permitted.
For an in depth explanation of the various statements and who has what authority, read:
adoremus.org/97-03_pokorsky.htm
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otjm
Guest
This is an issue that has aggravated many for a long time. From what appears to be the response from Rome concerning the letter of the law, and the real world practice, it would appear that Rome is not about to change the law, and they are also not about to enforce the law. The reference to Archbishop, now Cardinal O’Malley to do what he felt pastorally wise should be a braod signal that on a scale of 1 to 10, this isn’t a 9, or a 7, or probably even a 5 with Rome.
And it it isn’t upsetting the Richter Scale in Rome, then, as Rome advised O’Malley to make his pastoral decision (which is about as broad a hint as you are going to get out of Rome that they are going to do just about absolutely nothing about the matter), we might be advised to do likewise, and limit the battles we fight to a) ones that are more important and b) ones that we might stand some chance of winning.
In other words, if you feel that your bishop is inclined to do something about enforcing the rule (Vasa comes to mind), then writing a letter might be advised. If you think that your bishop might find other issues to enforce rather than this, you might choose to pick a different fight.
And remember, 20 to 30 years from now, there may be entirely different issues, as that is a generation to a generaiton and a half. Given our aging priesthood, many of them will no longer be with us.
Another way to say it: ammunition is limited; be sure you have a target worth the shot.
And it it isn’t upsetting the Richter Scale in Rome, then, as Rome advised O’Malley to make his pastoral decision (which is about as broad a hint as you are going to get out of Rome that they are going to do just about absolutely nothing about the matter), we might be advised to do likewise, and limit the battles we fight to a) ones that are more important and b) ones that we might stand some chance of winning.
In other words, if you feel that your bishop is inclined to do something about enforcing the rule (Vasa comes to mind), then writing a letter might be advised. If you think that your bishop might find other issues to enforce rather than this, you might choose to pick a different fight.
And remember, 20 to 30 years from now, there may be entirely different issues, as that is a generation to a generaiton and a half. Given our aging priesthood, many of them will no longer be with us.
Another way to say it: ammunition is limited; be sure you have a target worth the shot.
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TimOliv
Guest
But its also completely optional.
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Margaret_Lois
Guest
I too was looking for a definitive answer on the washing of feet on Holy Thursday. Our pastor is about to implement the inclusion of women in this ritual, and many are upset. Sad to say I haven’t found a definitive answer, only lots of different opinions which points out the ongoing confusion in our church. My only suggestion would be for all of us to bear it, offering it up at this very solemn and holy season for Holy Mother Church. God bless, Margaret Lois.
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Maratom
Guest
The Catholic Church’s that I have attended in the archdiocese of Baltimore permit foot washing for both men and women.
I know a pastore one year who had hand washing to replace footwashing on Holy Thursday.
I know a pastore one year who had hand washing to replace footwashing on Holy Thursday.
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scylla
Guest
The rules do not permit foot washing of women…
(to allow it is direct disobedience to truth)
Direct quote stating only men should represent the Apostles,
adoremus.org/PaschaleSolemnitatis.html
Look at #51
What we see is disobedience being done which eventually makes everyone used to it then eventually the “reformers” try to make it a norm.
At this point there are going to be a lot of women mad when a pastor who wants to be obedient tries to do what is right in a parish that is breaking the rules. This is exactly what the people who like change want they want to make it a norm to be disobedient.
This usually is not ignorance as most do know it is wrong but desire a change and think it is better for the Church.
Kinda like having women priests they know that the Church has ruled against it but feel that it doesn’t matter, everyone should be able to be a priest if they feel called to be.
It disappoints me that statements like that are on the US Catholic Bishops site which are misleading and intentionaly done so to give a reason for disobedience.
EDIT
Just the same with most of these innovations, such as foot washing of women. Things are done sneaking around without any firm solid teaching until people get used to the lukewarm teaching and then they get surprised when someone stands up for truth, they migh even get angry or offended.
It might seem to be a little thing but every thing about our faith is important,
God Bless
Scylla
(to allow it is direct disobedience to truth)
Direct quote stating only men should represent the Apostles,
adoremus.org/PaschaleSolemnitatis.html
Look at #51
What we see is disobedience being done which eventually makes everyone used to it then eventually the “reformers” try to make it a norm.
At this point there are going to be a lot of women mad when a pastor who wants to be obedient tries to do what is right in a parish that is breaking the rules. This is exactly what the people who like change want they want to make it a norm to be disobedient.
This usually is not ignorance as most do know it is wrong but desire a change and think it is better for the Church.
Kinda like having women priests they know that the Church has ruled against it but feel that it doesn’t matter, everyone should be able to be a priest if they feel called to be.
It disappoints me that statements like that are on the US Catholic Bishops site which are misleading and intentionaly done so to give a reason for disobedience.
EDIT
Just the same with most of these innovations, such as foot washing of women. Things are done sneaking around without any firm solid teaching until people get used to the lukewarm teaching and then they get surprised when someone stands up for truth, they migh even get angry or offended.
It might seem to be a little thing but every thing about our faith is important,
God Bless
Scylla
M
Maratom
Guest
I agree there is a lot of disobedience especially in the American Catholic Church.
I know a few priests who would like nothing better than to break away from Rome.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
The answer to the question of whether women’s feet may be washed is actually quite clear: absolutely not. The rubrics leave no room for doubt and the Vatican has confirmed it. The only confusion is that more rebellious wills take the Vatican’s declining to pounce on offenders as a license to disobey. For a parallel example, Cdl. Mahony persists in consescrating the Precious Blood in glass flagons, and the Vatican has done nothing to censure him - still, anyone who has read the legislation, His Eminence included, knows he is in the wrong.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
It is permitted for women to have their feet washed at the Holy Thursday Mass.
The purpose of the priest washing the feet of the members of his parish, isn’t to reenact the historical act of Jesus washing the feet of the apostles, but rather to remember the message that He gave, in that the greatest among you will be the one who serves the least.
Those who want the historical reenactment will demand that only men have their feet washed. However, I would point out to these people that they should then go out and find 12 Jewish men.
Jim
The purpose of the priest washing the feet of the members of his parish, isn’t to reenact the historical act of Jesus washing the feet of the apostles, but rather to remember the message that He gave, in that the greatest among you will be the one who serves the least.
Those who want the historical reenactment will demand that only men have their feet washed. However, I would point out to these people that they should then go out and find 12 Jewish men.
Jim
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athanasiusrc
Guest
Hi Jim,
What is your source for this definitive statement? I have seen several responses that actually quote Church documents saying otherwise, but apart from hearsay without any documentary proof from Boston and a comment from the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy which doesn’t have any authority since it wasn’t approved by 3/4 of the bishops in a vote, I see nothing to support your statement.
What is your source for this definitive statement? I have seen several responses that actually quote Church documents saying otherwise, but apart from hearsay without any documentary proof from Boston and a comment from the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy which doesn’t have any authority since it wasn’t approved by 3/4 of the bishops in a vote, I see nothing to support your statement.
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PassthePeace1
Guest
So I take it, by reading this thread…that when my priest said last week, that this Holy Thursday…“we will be washing the feet of everybody in the parish, from the age of high school and up”…this is a break from the rubics and tradition? Why does this not surprise me.
Why does this not surprise me.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Go back and read through the thread, there are also quotes which say otherwise.
In my diocese, the Bishop has allowed for the washing of the feet of women. It has been this way for many years.
Jim
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otjm
Guest
From what I have read, that is not exactly accurate.
The language in the documents, as written in Latin, uses, I believe, “viri selecti”, which means "selected men [meaning males, as opposed to men meaning humans - hominem]. So the Latin is very clear.
However, it is my understanding that Archbishop O’Malley submitted a dubium to Rome concerning this, and Rome’s answer was in two parts: 1) yes, we mean men; and 2) use your pastoral judgement.
The second part of this in plain English is that Rome intends that men be selected, but Rome is not going to interfere, correct, punish, adjudicate, or otherwise get involved with a decision in a diocese where the rubrics are clear, but the diocese either allows or directs otherwise.
In other words, we can use the language of “absolutely not”, and “rebellious wills”, and “the Vatican’s declining to pounce on offenders as a license to disobey”, but the response from Rome seems to indciate that they are entirely aware of the issue, and they are not granting a “license to disobey”, but rather, saying that they would prefer that the rubrics be followed, but that these specific rubrics do not rise to the level of a need for correction.
One could call it a license to disobey; but one could also call it permission to do otherwise if in the pastoral judgement of the bishop, it is deemed prudent. Particularly since Rome has done so.
None of which is to imply that I think that washing the feet of women and/or children is wise, correct, makes liturgical or theological sense (given the source of the act), nor that I in any way approve. It will not sit well with those who understand the implied symbology of the act of washing the feet of men, nor those who approach all rules as absolutists. It plays into an ongoing battle with psuedo-feminists that one would think was resolved in about 1994, and which obviously is not.
Would that we could move on to new issues…
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lak611
Guest
I do not know Latin, but does “viri” mean adult male, or just male? Is it acceptable to wash the feet of young boys? Last year at my parish two boys who were only in kindergarten had their feet washed.
O
otjm
Guest
My Latin is a bit rusty. It means men, as best I recall. Not just males.
One, however, needs to keep in mind that in going back in ancient history, that might mean someone as young as somewhere between 12 and 15. I would not argue that would apply to today, however.
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Penitant
Guest
Everywhere I look, the rubrics are quite clear that only men’s feet are to be washed on Holy Thursday.
However, the parish I currently attend does not hold to this. I brought this up with someone who works for the parish (I’m not certain of her exact position – Coordinator, or something).
I got this response:
nccbuscc.org/liturgy/q&a/general/feet.shtml
Am I wrong? Is this actually allowed in the USA or are they simply breaking the rules?
On another note, how does Rome deal with Bishops who don’t pay attention to the rubrics? What course of action does one have when this happens?
Thank you all.
Pax Tecum,
Penitant
However, the parish I currently attend does not hold to this. I brought this up with someone who works for the parish (I’m not certain of her exact position – Coordinator, or something).
I got this response:
The USCCB ‘law’ she is referring to is here:
nccbuscc.org/liturgy/q&a/general/feet.shtml
Am I wrong? Is this actually allowed in the USA or are they simply breaking the rules?
On another note, how does Rome deal with Bishops who don’t pay attention to the rubrics? What course of action does one have when this happens?
Thank you all.
Pax Tecum,
Penitant
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