RE: Do the rules permit the foot washing of women on Holy Thursday?

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He got permission, which is the point.

Jim
And yet even if the “provision” of the CDW was an outright allowance, the most that can be safely assumed from that is that the Archdiocese of Boston received some sort of indult, perhaps even limited; no such indult has ever been extended to the rest of the Church, and not even the USCCB is brazen enough to claim one.
 
The problem, though, is that the supposed responsum to the dubium was never released to the public, by Abp. O’Malley or by the Vatican, meaning that reports of what it may have contained are entirely hearsay and we also have no reason whatsoever to conclude that the Vatican wanted the unknown response to operate as a general principle. I know John Paul II was one to tolerate much disobedience because he would rather “propose” than “impose” correct behavior, which makes it somewhat believable that a communique would be phrased so as to give a clear answer but invoke pastoral judgment along the lines of “you get to choose whether to do the right thing,” but I also know that Cdl. McCarrick flat out lied to the USCCB about a letter he received from Cdl. Ratzinger, so I also wouldn’t put it past the journalists’ source to tweak the contents. That’s a lot of words to say something simple: the only thing we know for sure is what the rubrics say, and in the absence of publicly released responsa from Rome we’re bound to the rubrics.
From everything I have seen of O’Malley, he is neither a liberal nor a liar. Charity suggests that therefore I accept his statement.

Further, the statement doesn’t particularly surprise me. There are two general Western philosophical approaches to law, one the Germanic and the other the Italian or Mediterranian approach. In short, the Germanic is “whatever is not permitted is prohibited” and the other is “whatever is not prohibited is allowed”. The latter is obviously what some would call a more lax approach.

What I observe is that many who style or call themselves conservative seem to have a very Germanic approach to the laws of the Church.

I am not suggesting that one is right and the other wrong; rather that Rome does seem to be situated in Italy… and if one pays attention to what transpires in the Church, it is patently obvious that niether the Pope nor the Curia micromanage the Church. There are any number of things that go on that cause people in the pews to be upset. I do not suggest that it would not be better for all if the rubrics were followed. But the fact of the matter is that the rubrics are not followed exactly; and in some circumstances, it seems not even closely. And this is not some new event. There is a perception that the Pope, or at least some Cardinal in one of the dicasteries, is going to change all of this but the fact is, that is simply not how Rome works.

By the way, hearsay in a court of law is generally not admissable (except under limited circumstances not relevant here), but we are not in a court of law. Most of what is discussed in these fora is based on heresay, but that does not mean that none of it is trustworthy. Maybe for some few it would have been much better had O’Malley published the response from Rome; then again, maybe it was better that he didn’t, in spite of the doubting Thomases. It doesn’t bother me in the least, as it tracks - he is for all appearances orthodox (I have not seen anyone question that) and the response tracks with the obvious ways that Rome works, or chooses not to work. Rome understands a hierarchy of rules. Some observers don’t, which generally results in their great dissatisfacation and distress.

Do I like the priest in the parish washing feet in contravention to the rule and obvious symbolism? No, not at all.

Do I get upset about it? I have so much in my life that needs correction still, I tend to my own faults and spend the time in prayer for the grace to do better, and for those I have promised my prayers. The time goes quickly and we continue with the Mass. And I am not disturbed.
 
Eh no. In America, that’s what ENGLISH is for.
Really? Since when?

Or is this a matter of “we’re the majority, conform to us”?
You do realize that there are communities in the USA that are primarily Hispanic?

The USA has no official language. The Church, however, does have a universal language: Latin.
 
This thread makes me think of the people complaining they couldn’t play shuffle-board while the Titanic was sinking. If these small things cause you so much grief, I honestly don’t understand how some of you get through life. Yes, it’s sad rubrics aren’t followed exactly word for word. I personally don’t spend my time reading them and double checking my priest, so I wouldn’t have know this rule except for the fact it has now been brought up. Is it the end of the world women are having their feet washed? Let’s not let the fact that women are getting feet washed take away from the awesomeness of the mass. The Eucharist is outside of time, we receive our Lord, and yet we are overwhelmed and all we take away is that women are having their feet washed.
 
Is the foot washing on Holy Thursday a historical reenactment of the event, or is it a reminder of the message Jesus gave us, that the greatest among you will serve the least?

I’ll take the message Jesus gave over the historical reenactment.

I’m happy to see the feet of women washed on Holy Thursday.🙂

Jim
 
Is the foot washing on Holy Thursday a historical reenactment of the event, or is it a reminder of the message Jesus gave us, that the greatest among you will serve the least?

I’ll take the message Jesus gave over the historical reenactment.

I’m happy to see the feet of women washed on Holy Thursday.🙂

Jim
it is both… and the message was/is in the example of Jesus only washing the feet of the Apostles. (they were all men… weren’t they??)

Catholicism… both/and… not either or
 
it is both… and the message was/is in the example of Jesus only washing the feet of the Apostles. (they were all men… weren’t they??)

Catholicism… both/and… not either or
The message was that they were to serve the least among them. They took this into their ministry.

Are you suggesting that women are not to be served by the priest, but only men?

Jim
 
The message was that they were to serve the least among them. They took this into their ministry.

Are you suggesting that women are not to be served by the priest, but only men?

Jim
I am not suggesting that in regards to the FOOTWASHING… Jesus already did that.
 
I am not suggesting that in regards to the FOOTWASHING… Jesus already did that.
But was Jesus message to the apostles, limited to the apostles or was he giving a message to everyone who follows him?

Perhaps the priest on Holy Thursday services, should only wash the feet of 12 other priest. This isn’t the case, so I don’t see the big issue against the washing of the feet of women.

Jim
 
Wait, should women not have their feet washed. In our church RCIA,some kids making the sacraments and a few other get their feet washed. I am female and had my feet washed was this wrong:confused:
 
Yes it was wrong, unfortunately some people do things they are not supposed to out of an effort to make everyone feel good in some Catholic Churches here.

It is a misconception that just because some people object to the rules being broken, people disobeying the rubrics that service to others is being denyed. Of course after Mass everyone can go wash others feet, but outside of Mass.
This can be done in a spirit of service and inclusion on the front steps of the Church even to non-catholics, everyone.

The objection is raised that people are deliberately disobeying the Church which is essentially disobeying God. It is wrong to be disobedient and prideful in elevating personal preferences above what is stated that should be done in the rubrics.

As I said before this is similar to me wanting to concelebrate the Eucharist as a lay person. Just because I feel I should be included. Is this wrong?

In Christ
Scylla
 
The message was that they were to serve the least among them. They took this into their ministry.

Are you suggesting that women are not to be served by the priest, but only men?

Jim
That is a false representation of the problem.

The problem is disobedience. I am appalled at the lack of respect for the Church and pride which it takes to change rules to a personal preference. Do we obey or do what we want?

If I am not included in the 12 or 13 men, should I insist I be included? No, in a spirit of obedience I sit in my pew.
(this doesn’t mean I am perfect, even a sinner like me can point out evil)

And I will insist that it is the wrong to foster disobedience.

In Christ
Scylla

Everyone else can have their feet washed outside of Mass, I would gladly wash others feet, even the people who desire walking by outside of the Church. This is permissable and even encouraged. We need to foster this desire to wash others feet, outside of Mass I would put the homeless first.
 
But was Jesus message to the apostles, limited to the apostles or was he giving a message to everyone who follows him?

Perhaps the priest on Holy Thursday services, should only wash the feet of 12 other priest. This isn’t the case, so I don’t see the big issue against the washing of the feet of women.

Jim
Perhaps not, because that is not what the rules say. We shouldn’t speculate or be disobedient, we should just do what is right.

God Bless
Scylla
 
The problem is disobedience. I am appalled at the lack of respect for the Church and pride which it takes to change rules to a personal preference. Do we obey or do what we want?
It’s not disobedience. O’Malley asked for clarification from Rome. Rome stated what the GIRM said, but added that it was up to his own pastoral discretion, which is what the GIRM also says in the very beginning, along with the Vatican II document on the Sacred Liturgy.

In principle, it’s a matter of inclusion verses exclusion. Are women to be included in the service that priest are to provide to the people, or just men?

If Rome comes out and says that washing the feet of women at the Mass of the Last Supper is prohibited, then so be it. They have not and I doubt they will, because most know that it is more than a historical reenactment, but rather a message of humble service, which Jesus instructed us all to follow.

It is obvious by some of the statements made in this thread that some people are missing the spirit of the message, and demanding that we follow the letter of the message exclusively.

Jim
 
Reading all fo the discussions regarding the Washing of Feet etc. I was thinking about who was present in that upper room.

The Passover Meal was a family event. All jewish persons participated in th Paschal Feast. Men, women and children. Free persons, servants and slaves. Who was present at the Last Supper causes us to look at the passages and how they [the scripture passages and our understanding and practice - ie liturgy] are lived out in the life of the Church.

There were 12 original apostles but hundreds of disciples and many of them were women. The role of disciple is not limited to only men.

Now we know that in the Gospel of John, Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, what we do not know with certainty is that he washed only the feet of the twelve, as a hard number is not provided.

In the Synoptic Gospel [Matthew, Mark and Luke] accounts we have the Breaking of Bread, the establishment of the Eucharist…this event also is shared withthe “disciples” but the Eucharist is for all of the ‘initiated’ Christians not just reserved for “men”

Reading arguments against the washing of feet for women, I am often left wondering if women should be recieving the Eucharist.

The Foot Washing is something that has been ‘done’ and “not done” historically, the undersatnding of the meaning of the event through time is something I would like to study but may not be clearly stated throughout the 2000 year history.

We use this event to understand the priesty ordination at this point in time. Yet “foot washing” is not a part of the Rite of Ordination. It is possible that in the early church, ordination might not have been the [primary] understanding of this passage.

Does any one have ready knowledge of any discussion by the early church fathers on this topic…?
 
It’s not disobedience. O’Malley asked for clarification from Rome. Rome stated what the GIRM said, but added that it was up to his own pastoral discretion, which is what the GIRM also says in the very beginning, along with the Vatican II document on the Sacred Liturgy.

In principle, it’s a matter of inclusion verses exclusion. Are women to be included in the service that priest are to provide to the people, or just men?

If Rome comes out and says that washing the feet of women at the Mass of the Last Supper is prohibited, then so be it. They have not and I doubt they will, because most know that it is more than a historical reenactment, but rather a message of humble service, which Jesus instructed us all to follow.

It is obvious by some of the statements made in this thread that some people are missing the spirit of the message, and demanding that we follow the letter of the message exclusively.

Jim
The spirit of the message is not how you obey, this is what leads to personal preference taking precedence over obedience. It doesn’t say that monkeys should stand in for the priest when he washes the feet does that mean it should be allowed?

Your personal spirit of what should be done can be different from the spirit of Father so and so.

It is not an issue of inclusion or exclusion or else then it would be perfectly valid for me to go up and try and concelebrate the Mass with the Priest.

It is a matter of obedience and to disobey is wrong. It is the spirit of original sin that leads to people not obeying and seeking their own inclusion.
Why shouldn’t I eat the apple?
Should I look for wiggle room or just obey?

We should all be obedient to the defined methods of practicing our unified expression of faith. When I want to do my own personal expressions, that is fine for choosing to pray the Rosary outside of Mass, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy. Kneel, meditate, go off to the desert, etc… yet in unified expression of faith obedience is more important than personal desires.

God Bless
Scylla
 
There were 12 original apostles but hundreds of disciples and many of them were women. The role of disciple is not limited to only men. I agree, we are all called to be disciples…

Now we know that in the Gospel of John, Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, what we do not know with certainty is that he washed only the feet of the twelve, as a hard number is not provided. The Bible contradicts this…

In the Synoptic Gospel [Matthew, Mark and Luke] accounts we have the Breaking of Bread, the establishment of the Eucharist…this event also is shared withthe “disciples” but the Eucharist is for all of the ‘initiated’ Christians not just reserved for “men” Amen

Reading arguments against the washing of feet for women, I am often left wondering if women should be recieving the Eucharist.
Don’t worry the Church specifies otherwise
There is a big difference between a re-enactment of Jesus washing the feet of the Disciples and the Eucharist which is Jesus feeding the Multitudes.
John 6?

When we do a Passion re-enactment would it be proper to replace the thieves on the cross with women? Would it be proper to replace Jesus with a woman?

Are you sure about it not specifying that only twelve were there…
Does Luke 22:14 matter?
“And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him”

Just because extreme feminist attitudes demand inclusion regardless of truth, doesn’t mean that we should misrepresent the truth of what is stated by the Church. Also some people who reject Papal Authority such as Call to Action seem to influence this sort of inclusion.
Is this the spirit of obedience?

What we are representing at the Mass is the washing of the feet of the twelve disciples by Jesus.
Of course it is proper to wash womens feet outside of the Mass, of kids and non-catholics, etc… That is the command of Jesus we should be willing to serve and humbly do so.

“…no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove, change anything in the liturgy on his own authority” Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, no. 23].

Who does the Priest stand for in the Mass?

God Bless
Scylla
 
Yes it was wrong, unfortunately some people do things they are not supposed to out of an effort to make everyone feel good in some Catholic Churches here.

It is a misconception that just because some people object to the rules being broken, people disobeying the rubrics that service to others is being denyed. Of course after Mass everyone can go wash others feet, but outside of Mass.
This can be done in a spirit of service and inclusion on the front steps of the Church even to non-catholics, everyone.

The objection is raised that people are deliberately disobeying the Church which is essentially disobeying God. It is wrong to be disobedient and prideful in elevating personal preferences above what is stated that should be done in the rubrics.

As I said before this is similar to me wanting to concelebrate the Eucharist as a lay person. Just because I feel I should be included. Is this wrong?

In Christ
Scylla
If you had no clue that what you were asked to do was wrong is it not your fault. It has always been done that way in our parish and I never heard it was wrong until now. And if it is wrong how are you supposed to address this.
 
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