re: islamic claim to the temple mount

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i have to admit that i am still a little confused about the history of the middle east and why there are so many problems between israel and the surrounding arab countries. in the old testament, israel is the promised land given to the hebrew people. the city of jerusalem is mentioned many times in the old and new testament. why do the muslims insist that this land is theirs and the jewish people do not belong there? if this is posted in the wrong section of the forum, can someone please move it to the appropriate section. thanks.
 
i have to admit that i am still a little confused about the history of the middle east and why there are so many problems between israel and the surrounding arab countries. in the old testament, israel is the promised land given to the hebrew people.
The True Israel is the Church, the Promised Land is in her.
the city of jerusalem is mentioned many times in the old and new testament
.
To get ahead of things, this is no relevence for Muslims.
why do the muslims insist that this land is theirs and the jewish people do not belong there?
Muhammad is supposed to superceded all other prophets, his “nation” being the “Best of communities” has sovereignty over the whole world, in particular the places of the prophets. To their mind the Jews (and Christians) are just apostates.
 
okay. my history of that part of the world is not that good, but i know at one time the muslims were in southern spain. there is a beautiful mosque in Cordoba. however, when the Catholics regained control of spain, they exiled the jews and the muslims. i believe now, the muslims in spain want the mosque back as it was turned into a cathedral after the catholics reclaimed the land under queen isabella. i know that not all muslims are arabs. i wasn’t born yesterday. and i know that muslims are in all parts of the world - indonesia,
pakistan, parts of india, parts of africa, parts of eastern europe, chechnya and, of course, the middle east. i know that people in iran are muslims, but they speak farsi, not arabic. so islam has spread to all parts of the world. i also know that there are arabs in israel who are citizens of israel.

it is said that the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump when they built their holy mosques there. how do we really know that? i feel they probably wanted to make their claim in jerusalem for their religion and the best place to do it was where the second temple stood.

i don’t understand why the muslims claim that the second temple did not occupy the temple mount and why they are so against israel existing.
they did nothing to develop the land that is now israel, but once israel became a state and developed and had resources, the neighboring countries seem jealous.

isn’t it true that the Jews are allowed to visit some of their holy sites around the temple mount only certain days of the week?

the muslims are so possessive of the temple mount.
 
okay. my history of that part of the world is not that good, but i know at one time the muslims were in southern spain. there is a beautiful mosque in Cordoba. however, when the Catholics regained control of spain, they exiled the jews and the muslims. i believe now, the muslims in spain want the mosque back as it was turned into a cathedral after the catholics reclaimed the land under queen isabella. i know that not all muslims are arabs. i wasn’t born yesterday. and i know that muslims are in all parts of the world - indonesia,
pakistan, parts of india, parts of africa, parts of eastern europe, chechnya and, of course, the middle east. i know that people in iran are muslims, but they speak farsi, not arabic. so islam has spread to all parts of the world. i also know that there are arabs in israel who are citizens of israel.
Congratulations. You just rattled off a series of facts that are not commonly known. I can tell you that from experience.
it is said that the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump when they built their holy mosques there. how do we really know that?
All the sources say so, including the non-Muslim ones. It was an extreme example of Suppressionism, not only of Judaism, but of paganism (the pagans had erected a temple to Jupiter on the Temple Mount).
i feel they probably wanted to make their claim in jerusalem for their religion and the best place to do it was where the second temple stood.
No doubt.
i don’t understand why the muslims claim that the second temple did not occupy the temple mount and why they are so against israel existing.
Leaving aside the political issues of Zionism, the religious one is if the Holy Land belongs to the Jews, that means the Torah is still valid. Where does that leave the Quran?
they did nothing to develop the land that is now israel,
The land without a people myth.
but once israel became a state and developed and had resources, the neighboring countries seem jealous.
the same. I can’t remember, but there is a study that exposes the “make the desert bloom” myth. There has been some development, but at a loss, masked by infusions of capital from outside.
isn’t it true that the Jews are allowed to visit some of their holy sites around the temple mount only certain days of the week?
Certain times of the year. That was put in place by the pagan Romans.
the muslims are so possessive of the temple mount.
you want to give up the Church of the Resurrection/Holy Sepulchre? St. John of the Lateran?
 
the persians did not conquer the holy land until shortly after the 7th century.
the roman empire ended the middle of the 5th century, so who was occupying the holy land before the persian conquered it?

i am glad that my facts were correct. since september 11, 2001, i have tried to educate myself about the middle east and the history of israel since world war II.

when i look back at the time i lived in spain, i had a very innocent concept of islam. i was studying world religions in college, so i had some basic knowledge of islam, judaism and christianity. at the time, i had no negative view of islam like i do now. that goes to show you how the terrorism that has occurred around the world (the laast 30 years) has influenced my perception of islam, especially the past 8 years. when i was in spain in 1972-1973, i probably saw islam as a peaceful religion and had a love for all 3 religions and knew that they were related through abraham. i am sure i viewed islam as mysterious, but i did admire the architecture that i saw in spain and i knew there was an islamic influence on the spanish music and language as well, perhaps even some of the literature.
but it had sprung from a culture that i was not familiar with. i wish i could still view islam as i did from the days i was in college, but i cannot anymore.

i don’t understand your last sentence, do i want to give up the church of the resurrection . . . . .? what does that mean?

i also do not know of the myth of the desert blooming. so i might disagree on a few points that you made.
 
there is a jewist extremist group who threaten to destroy the dome on the rock so that the 3rd temple could be contructed on the temple mount.

it is important to note that a majority of the Jewish people do not agree with this and realise that it would not doubt lead to world war III.

meanwhile, it seems like they do whatever they can to taunt the jews as to what they are allowed to do around the temple mount and they deny that the second temple was built on the temple mount before it was destroyed in 70 ad.
 
**
Hello,
i have to admit that i am still a little confused about the history of the middle east and why there are so many problems between israel and the surrounding arab countries. in the old testament, israel is the promised land given to the hebrew people. the city of jerusalem is mentioned many times in the old and new testament. why do the muslims insist that this land is theirs and the jewish people do not belong there? if this is posted in the wrong section of the forum, can someone please move it to the appropriate section. thanks.
First of all, the Jews WERE the chosen people. They went astray every turn they took practically and that is why a need for more messages to be sent. There were many things that the Jews have done, like kill prophets in the past etc. that made their “chosen” be taken from them. Til this day, you still find many of them not abiding by their own books. The land was there, the temple was there, the fall of Rome was there, the city of Jerusalem is still there…Palestine is still a blessed city. Even Allah says in the Quran that it is (related in the story of Mosa alayhi wa salaam). 🙂

Now, the problem arises in Palestine due to the fact that what was once theirs and taken(even though history states otherwise), they want it back no matter what cost. It all involved USA and Europe. Treaties documents, promises etc. (without any consideration of those who lived there~on purpose!!) 1948 came round and then the people that were there, are now considered like dogs and to be treated like dogs. The Zionists are involved and they are stronger than the religious jews that protest against them. These Zionists are as well considered Jewish by religion…although not abiding by what their prophet was sent with.

The Jews disbelieved and are no longer following the religion of the believers among the Children of Israel who followed and supported Moosa and ‘Eesaa (peace be upon them).

We Muslims have more right to it than they, because land does not belong to the people who lived there first, but to those who establish the laws of Allah therein. Allah created the land, and He created people to worship Allah in the land and to establish therein the religion, laws and rulings of Allah. Allah says “… Verily, the earth is Allah’s. He gives it as a heritage to whom He wills of His slaves; and the (blessed) end is for the Muttaqoon (the pious).” al-A’raaf 7:128

“History tells us that the first people to settle in Palestine were the Canaanites, six thousand years BCE. They were an Arab tribe who came to Palestine from the Arabian Peninsula, and after their arrival, Palestine was named after them (i.e., Canaan).

“As for the Jews, the first time they entered Palestine was approximately six hundred years after Ibraheem had entered the land, i.e., they entered it approximately 1400 years BCE. *So the Canaanites entered Palestine and lived there approximately 4500 years before the Jews.” *

Hence it is clear that the Jews have no right to the land, whether according to religious law or in terms of who lived there first and possessed the land. They are aggressors who are seizing the land by force.

Thus what is said in the Bible about the land of Palestine is blatantly obvious a disregard for truth when history proves otherwise.

americanrevert**
 
This matter concerning the false Jewish claim to the Haram al-Sharif in Jerusalem was recently discussed on another thread.

Kindly refer to these three posts: 123
 
so you are saying that the whole earth, not just israel belongs to Allah and therefore, the whole earth should follow islam?

why are there so many who have converted from islam to christianity who say bad things about islam?

maybe the muslims need to learn the meaning of the word “share”.

there is so much land in the middle east and israel only wants a small part of it.

why aren’t the palestinians welcome into any of the other muslim countries who surely have room for them?

the holy land should be shared by jews, christians and muslims.
 
can you please tell me a little more about the prophet mohammed?

he is known as a messenger? he was born in the 6th century?
where was he born and where did he live?
supposedly he ascended to heaven on the temple mount?

when he was on earth, did people know he was a prophet?

please explain to me why God needed to send someone after Jesus?
 
**
Hello,

First of all, the Jews WERE** the chosen people. They went astray every turn they took practically and that is why a need for more messages to be sent. There were many things that the Jews have done, like kill prophets in the past etc. that made their “chosen” be taken from them. Til this day, you still find many of them not abiding by their own books. The land was there, the temple was there, the fall of Rome was there, the city of Jerusalem is still there…Palestine is still a blessed city. Even Allah says in the Quran that it is (related in the story of Mosa alayhi wa salaam). 🙂

Now, the problem arises in Palestine due to the fact that what was once theirs and taken(even though history states otherwise), they want it back no matter what cost. It all involved USA and Europe. Treaties documents, promises etc. (without any consideration of those who lived there~on purpose!!) 1948 came round and then the people that were there, are now considered like dogs and to be treated like dogs. The Zionists are involved and they are stronger than the religious jews that protest against them. These Zionists are as well considered Jewish by religion…although not abiding by what their prophet was sent with.

The Jews disbelieved and are no longer following the religion of the believers among the Children of Israel who followed and supported Moosa and ‘Eesaa (peace be upon them).

We Muslims have more right to it than they, because land does not belong to the people who lived there first, but to those who establish the laws of Allah therein. Allah created the land, and He created people to worship Allah in the land and to establish therein the religion, laws and rulings of Allah. Allah says “… Verily, the earth is Allah’s. He gives it as a heritage to whom He wills of His slaves; and the (blessed) end is for the Muttaqoon (the pious).” al-A’raaf 7:128

“History tells us that the first people to settle in Palestine were the Canaanites, six thousand years BCE. They were an Arab tribe who came to Palestine from the Arabian Peninsula, and after their arrival, Palestine was named after them (i.e., Canaan).

“As for the Jews, the first time they entered Palestine was approximately six hundred years after Ibraheem had entered the land, i.e., they entered it approximately 1400 years BCE. *So the Canaanites entered Palestine and lived there approximately 4500 years before the Jews.” *

Hence it is clear that the Jews have no right to the land, whether according to religious law or in terms of who lived there first and possessed the land. They are aggressors who are seizing the land by force.

Thus what is said in the Bible about the land of Palestine is blatantly obvious a disregard for truth when history proves otherwise.

americanrevert
Who are Moosa and Eesa? Since you’re writing in English and all of us undertand English, can’t you just say “Moses” and “Jesus”? You probably think you sound more “exotic” by using Arabic names when speaking English, but we are not at all impressed. Arabic is not God’s chosen language, if ever He had a chosen language.

And for the umpteenth time, can you PLEASE stop using a different color and style font than the rest of us? It doesn’t make your posts look more emphatic–in fact, I venture to guess a lot of us (myself at least) NOT want to read your posts! :mad:
 
**
Who are Moosa and Eesa? Since you’re writing in English and all of us undertand English, can’t you just say “Moses” and “Jesus”? You probably think you sound more “exotic” by using Arabic names when speaking English, but we are not at all impressed. Arabic is not God’s chosen language, if ever He had a chosen language.
And for the umpteenth time, can you PLEASE stop using a different color and style font than the rest of us? It doesn’t make your posts look more emphatic–in fact, I venture to guess a lot of us (myself at least) NOT want to read your posts!
sheesh get a grip…these names come normally to me and they are by the way, their real names. It isn’t that hard to decipher is it? Arabic is the chosen language for the last message of God. Sheesh what is your hangup? I love color…what is it haram??? forbidden??? then why is the forum havin color…does it offend you so much? I mean sheesh, you shouldn’t judge because of your hang up. Then don’t read them. It’s your prerogative and leave me alone .

americanrevert

**
 
so if islam such a good religion, why is there such chaos in the countries that follow islam?

why is their terroristm?
why is their killing?
why is there such inequality between men and women?
why are their honor killings?
 
so if islam such a good religion, why is there such chaos in the countries that follow islam?

why is their terroristm?
why is their killing?
why is there such inequality between men and women?
why are their honor killings?
Because they’re facing moving from the intellectual Middle Ages to the 21st Century and, consequently, a state of permanent crisis - revolution and reaction.

Hopefully, it won’t end up as bloody as Western history in the same process.
 
**Hello Deborahaz

Therefore I say unto you (Jews), The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you (Jews), and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

(HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 21: 45 1
so you are saying that the whole earth, not just israel belongs to Allah and therefore, the whole earth should follow islam?
why are there so many who have converted from islam to christianity who say bad things about islam?
maybe the muslims need to learn the meaning of the word “share”.
there is so much land in the middle east and israel only wants a small part of it.
why aren’t the palestinians welcome into any of the other muslim countries who surely have room for them?
the holy land should be shared by jews, christians and muslims.
Actually I went to the CIA Factbook they have on their site and I it was astonishing…did you know that they have it recorded as Islam is the fastest growing religion now. It has raised 235% and Christianity just 47%. It is still considered to be the second largest religion but that is only because they combined the Protestant and the Catholic religions both into the Christian category. But the rate of its speed is amazin! 😃 👍

Deborah, they don’t want a part of it. See, if you also study some of the history of the Jews, they want it all…and they want to expand it even to the area of Saudia. There are greedy zionists now that are makin the problems. Also, Muslims, Christians and Jews DID live together for a long time until all the uprisings and ILLEGAL OCCUPATIONS started. Muslims have no qualms over their neighbor being a Jew or not. But when you are being handled like a slave in captivity, one thinks differently. My son has a friend in Gaza and he telephoned him the other day. SubhanAllah! What is goin on there is unbelievable…this boy has had like 4 or did he say 5 of his brothers actually killed/murdered and he saw women trying to carry things home for necessities to feed their family…like one potato in a sack…pair of torn pants etc. Talk about share? Where is the compassion? Where is the truth to be told when you are shut and imprisoned and can’t let the world know…(media, zionists, our government~ AMERICA) are the causes of this.

The point is, what right do the Jews have over their land now? I showed you what Allah says…now think of it rationally on another level…I’ll give you an example…I am native american (cherokee by tribal ancestry)…say “the civil savages” came in and took my land…I was there first sooo they killed, raped, murdered my family, friends, and lifestyle. Time goes by, and centuries go by…say my future genetic production line lol says they want everything back, their land, home, lifestyle…you really think it is possible or they have the right? It doesn’t work like that. At the time, yes, you can and HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DEFEND YOUR HOME, YOUR FAMILY, YOUR LIFE.…but centuries later? not realistic nor logical.

It isn’t for the muslims to leave a blessed place when they are trying to live the life of Muslims…(but that is another story)…they have every right in the world, even by the UNITED NATIONS to stay where they are and they are to be protected by law under the Geneva Convention…but are they??? *They are being denied their right to exist. Is this fair?
*

ok, will answer your other post now inshaAllah about Mohammad sallaAllahu 'alayhi wa sellem

americanrevert

**
 
so are they just getting a later start than other cultures?
When we’re talking about the mass of the population and with the partial exception of Turkey.

Islam has been strong enough to ‘protect’ against ‘modernity’ but the longer it goes on the greater the potential crisis.
 
**
can you please tell me a little more about the prophet mohammed?
he is known as a messenger? he was born in the 6th century?
where was he born and where did he live?
supposedly he ascended to heaven on the temple mount?
when he was on earth, did people know he was a prophet?
please explain to me why God needed to send someone after Jesus?
AND WE SENT THEE NOT {O Mubammad}, BUT AS A MERCY UNTO {all} THE WORLDS. Holy Quran 21:107

He was chosen to be a messenger at the age of 40. He was born in Mecca and lived both in Mecca and Medina Cities where idols were worshiped by the thousands…His father died before he was born and his mother died when he was 6. He was raised by his grandfather Abu Muttalib. He began to look after his uncle’s sheep by way of keep. He was a shepherd.

Yes, when he was alive, he was known throughout Asia as the last messenger…even as far as Abyssinia …even the Jews (many but not all) acknowledged him as the last messenger foretold in their books and submitted to Islam.

Well, the main reason is for God to judge…it is all in His plan. 🙂 What we know of it entails only from our knowledge that has been given to us in the Quran and in ahadith of Mohammad sallaAllahu 'alayhi wa sellem.

The need for a messenger was so clear. Mankind was so messed up. No mentioning of the true God. No worshiping of the One God. No rules were being kept. Nothing was being obeyed. Thus, a need for guidance. Man cannot live without guidance…they will parish further away from their Creator (as a vow/oath from satan).

We know all through time man has been continuously messing up, disobeying, destroying, and doing what he/she wants. Man has had no regard for the true messages from God. They did as they pleased, said what they pleased, ate what they pleased and went on their way as they pleased.

The main reason we are placed on this earth is to worship God. This is what is stated in the final message. We were not put on this earth to party 24/7 or to think we can worship how we please.
This is God’s earth and He deals with it the way He wants. He gives life and He takes it. He sustains Whom He wants and He does what He wills.

There is so much more but I don’t think it could have fitted all one one post lol…any more questions?

americanrevert**
 
Actually I went to the CIA Factbook they have on their site and I it was astonishing…did you know that they have it recorded as Islam is the fastest growing religion now. It has raised 235% and Christianity just 47%.
Where can you find such statistics on the CIA Factbook website? I am there now, and I can’t find them. There are percentage listings for each country and the world as a whole, but I don’t see anything regarding the relative growth of religions in the world. Can you provide a link, please?
It is still considered to be the second largest religion but that is only because they combined the Protestant and the Catholic religions both into the Christian category.
And the Orthodox, and the Anglicans (I’m looking at the page right now). And why shouldn’t they? All these groups are Christians. The CIA Factbook isn’t being sneaky.
But the rate of its speed is amazin! 😃 👍
adherents.com:
Islam: Contemporary figures for Islam are usually between 1 billion and 1.8 billion, with 1 billion being a figure frequently given in many comparative religion texts, probably because it’s such a nice, round number. That figure appears to be dated, however. Relatively high birth rates in Muslim countries continue to make Islam a fast-growing religion
Yeah…high birth rates are amazing, aren’t they… :rolleyes:
 
**
Where can you find such statistics on the CIA Factbook website? I am there now, and I can’t find them. There are percentage listings for each country and the world as a whole, but I don’t see anything regarding the relative growth of religions in the world. Can you provide a link, please?
okies, now what I looked at was what you looked at…what I took and posted was one that was already calculated and I took it from this link and if you look at the bottom you can click to see where he got his calculations from(the same page we looked at )…also you can do your own calculations but all the links they provide 🙂

islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm

also this : islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2122.html

youtube.com/watch?v=cwRC0yxeANw

also this is interesting 😃 timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3653800.ece

here is another link which was fascinating to read…I found this when I went lookin under cia lol…

groups.google.com/group/england.religion.islam/browse_thread/thread/bd41416afa839e36

americanrevert**
 
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