Re those on the top floors of the World Trade Center

  • Thread starter Thread starter jujubee
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There were many stories that horrible day of what I can only call “the ultimate act of selflessness”.

Many people sort of knew they were going to die, or at least expected to die, so their last acts were to make some effort to help others to escape or to just sit and hold hands with someone else so they could die together, calmly, instead of in a panic.

One story … and I think there may be a television segment on it … involves a woman who was at home, … and her husband did not come home from work at the World Trade Center.

She was naturally upset … perhaps more than others, since she was also pregnant at the time.

A few days later, she got a phone call. It was from some man she did not know who said he recognized her husband’s photograph in the newspaper and how her husband had helped him to escape. Apparently, her husband helped a lot of people to escape. But her husband stayed behind too long. And he disappeared, turned into dust with the other nearly 3000 people who perished.

So, she became even more upset … he gave up his life … with her going to have a baby … to help a complete and total stranger.

To make matters worse, her mother died shortly thereafter.

And she had to, among other things, clean out her mother’s apartment. It was very distressing, to say the least.

And while she was in her mother’s apartment, a fire broke out down the hall. She smelled the smoke and went out into the hallway and saw other elderly tenants disoriented by the alarm and the smoke and she got them into the fire stairs. AND THEN, she went from apartment to apartment banging on the doors and getting everyone out and to safety.

AND THEN, she realized what her husband had experienced in his last moments.
 
I still support the position mentioned earlier that those who jumped may have been hoping for that one in a million chance they’ll hit something to break their fall and live. They knew for sure they would die in the fire. I’d take the one in a million chance too rather then knowing I would die in the fire.
 
I still support the position mentioned earlier that those who jumped may have been hoping for that one in a million chance they’ll hit something to break their fall and live. They knew for sure they would die in the fire. I’d take the one in a million chance too rather then knowing I would die in the fire.
Indeed. To withdraw one’s flesh from extreme heat is a natural body reflex, and often does not involve the mind at all. If the flame or heat is severe enough to involve the whole body, someone may leap without ever thinking about it.

In World War 2, there were instances of men jumping from burning aircraft without parachutes to avoid the flames. In falling from a plane, one can reasonably expect to die; but some lived, as their bodies struck vegetation or deep snow that absorbed most of the impact. To the extent that WTC victims thought at all, they may have hoped for such a deliverance, even though there is no snow or vegetation in Lower Manhattan in September.

These folks were on the point of death in any case. And none of us can even know how our own minds and bodies will function in that state.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
 
Choosing the manner of one’s death is a possibility when the person is rational. When someone is hysterical with fear, they may do or say anything, because they are not thinking, just reacting on autopilot…

I once set the sleeve of a bathrobe on fire, & jjust that was enough to make me totally, completely irrational. But it gives me a tiny grain of understanding of what the fear of fire can do to a person. Based on that, I continue to believe that none of those folks knew what they were doing well enough to make a conscious choice.
I likewise had occasion in which clothing was on fire.
I have also been trapped within a forest fire.

In both instances, I acted calmly and rationally, and saved my own life.

It would be a mistake to apply what we believe would be the case to all of these individuals. There is simply too much variety of experience out there.

As I said before, it is a question of culpability.
For some, they may have in fact lost their reason, for others it may have been an accident, and for others it may well have been a deliberate and conscious decision.

All did the same thing, culpability is the deciding factor here.
 
I still support the position mentioned earlier that those who jumped may have been hoping for that one in a million chance they’ll hit something to break their fall and live. They knew for sure they would die in the fire. I’d take the one in a million chance too rather then knowing I would die in the fire.
Well stated.

I agree 100%.

And I pray to God that none of us are ever placed in such a terrible dilemma.

Also, participants here MUST note that we have been discussing this for more than a week.

In REALITY, you have only a second or two. Visualize it for yourselves. Stay close to the flames and die a horrible death by being consumed while alive by the fire or make the sign of the cross, beg for God’s mercy and jump.
 
Heavenly Father, for those who are still suffering from the trauma and pain of that tragic day, Lord I pray to You and thank You for helping them find healing and closure. Amen.
 
What a great way to end a thread.

I second that thought…
Heavenly Father, for those who are still suffering from the trauma and pain of that tragic day, Lord I pray to You and thank You for helping them find healing and closure. Amen.
 
Intent does not change what the act is. It merely alters the culpability of the individuals involved.
Right. Ok, then, let’s be precise according to Catholic moral teaching.

In this case, the act (object) posited is, simply, jumping out a window.

Right?

Again, as you noted, we’re just talking “act” here. We’re not talking intent or circumstances (the other two essential sources of Catholic morality, see CCC 1750.
 
Monte RCMS, it is a good thing that I have faith in God because those who apparently made such a deadly decision will certainly have much to answer when they meet Our Maker. Thank you for the information.
Are you (seriously) judging victims of the crime, saying they are somehow sinful for whatever action they took in these extreme circumstances?

If not, please forgive and clarify.

If so, please give any teaching of the Catholic Church that supports your claim.

Thanks.
 
This question just hit me today as I was watching the recap of the 9/11 terrorist attack. The people on the top floors… the ones who jumped… was that a true suicide? I can’t imagine what they were facing. But I am certainly hoping that someone can explain that in the eyes of the church their choice to leap to death when facing a certain death from the flames is not the same as what we normally think of as suicide.

Your thoughts or insights…?
There’s no need to impose moral theological nit-picking on a heinous tragedy. Pray for their souls and leave it up to God.
 
Right. Ok, then, let’s be precise according to Catholic moral teaching.

In this case, the act (object) posited is, simply, jumping out a window.

Right?
Wrong!
The act was jumping out a window that is hundreds of feet above the ground.
This act has a reasonable expectation of ending in death.
Again, as you noted, we’re just talking “act” here. We’re not talking intent or circumstances (the other two essential sources of Catholic morality, see CCC 1750.
You may not be discussing the circumstances, but I am. The question of culpability comes about specifically because of the circumstances surrounding the apparent suicide.
I am certain a review of my contributions to this thread will bear out what my contention is. And it is certainly not looking at the act isolated from the circumstances.
 
Are you (seriously) judging victims of the crime, saying they are somehow sinful for whatever action they took in these extreme circumstances?

If not, please forgive and clarify.
I can venture into this as it closely parallels my contention.

The action taken is overtly a sinful act.
The question is how much of this sin are the people going to bear given the circumstances (culpability).

Many would like to believe that all of those involved get none of the blame.
I do not share this view. I believe that those involved will be judged perfectly by God given the intent and circumstance of the action. The sinfulness of the action may or may not be judged, but we cannot know with any certainty.
There are certainly reasonable expectations that some had no intent to take their lives, but were simply trying to ‘escape’.
But it is also unreasonable to believe every one of these people had this same thing in mind.

It has been pointed out on this thread that the danger a fire presents causes people to lose their reason and act in a manner not necessarily consistent with what they would normally do.
However, it is also rightfully pointed out that the danger posed by a fire does not do this to all people.

We cannot know if every person there was completely in a panic and unaccountable for their actions. We can expect that many were, but we can also expect that a few may have been perfectly reasonable and took the actions knowing full well the possible outcomes.

It is certainly not the popular point of view to contend that these victims may not be completely innocent, but it is the most reasonable.
We are not all saints.
 
And last night I was watching one of the 9/11 programs and they showed film clips of ambulance crews treating injured people and among them were priests who were clearly administering Extreme Unction to the injured.
One of the clips I saw was a priest looking for victims to absolve. As it turned out, a little later the priest himself was killed in the building collapse.
 
Are you (seriously) judging victims of the crime, saying they are somehow sinful for whatever action they took in these extreme circumstances?

If not, please forgive and clarify.

If so, please give any teaching of the Catholic Church that supports your claim.

Thanks.
Vince, I was responding to the article link that RCMS had posted which stated that political decisions lead to the decision to lock the doors on the top floors of the twin towers. After reading the article, my response was that those who made those decisions for political reasons will have to answer to our Maker. If you look at my past comments you will see where I stand in terms of the 9/11 victims jumping from the Twin Towers…

Heavenly Father, many are still hurting from this tragedy. Thank You Father for bringing healing and closure for all. Amen.
 
In order to receive miracles you have to act. God is probably more likely to provide a miracle that is plausibly explained by science than one that is not. Therefore if I were in that situation I’m jumping and praying either for a miracle or for mercy.
 
Wrong!
The act was jumping out a window that is hundreds of feet above the ground.
This act has a reasonable expectation of ending in death.
The act is jumping out a window. The circumstances (context, etc.) include that this particular window is hundreds of feet above ground. Of course jumping out a window that is hundreds of feet above ground is not morally equivalent to jumping out a window that is 2 feet above ground. The point is…the act is jumping out the window, morally considered as the Catechism and Catholic moral teaching indicate.

Of course acts are never isolated from circumstances.

Suicide is a grave action. The circumstances of the victims of 9/11 do not make their actions (such as jumping out a window to avoid sure death) the equivalent of suicide.
 
Of course acts are never isolated from circumstances.

Suicide is a grave action. The circumstances of the victims of 9/11 do not make their actions (such as jumping out a window to avoid sure death) the equivalent of suicide.
As you say well, and as I have also indicated in my posts to this thread, acts are never isolated.

However I must disagree.
The circumstances may mitigate the culpability of the action, but it is what it is.
And reason also leads me to believe that many may have no culpability; but it would also lead me to consider the possibility that some may have full culpability.

In either case, prayer would be a good thing here.
 
Heavenly Father, thank You for bringing healing to all who have suffered through the September 11th tragedy and/or those who have suffered with the aftermath of 9/11. Thank You Father for bringing healing and closure. Amen.
 
Heavenly Father, for those who are still suffering from the trauma and pain of that tragic day, Lord I pray to You and thank You for helping them find healing and closure. Amen.
Amen.
Heavenly Father, thank You for bringing healing to all who have suffered through the September 11th tragedy and/or those who have suffered with the aftermath of 9/11. Thank You Father for bringing healing and closure. Amen.
…and Amen.
 
As you say well, and as I have also indicated in my posts to this thread, acts are never isolated.

However I must disagree.
The circumstances may mitigate the culpability of the action, but it is what it is.
And reason also leads me to believe that many may have no culpability; but it would also lead me to consider the possibility that some may have full culpability.

In either case, prayer would be a good thing here.
Yes, the action is what it is.

The action is jumping out a window.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top