Reaction from Priests/Deacons/Parish officials about Latin Mass

[YoungTradCath]

We were founded in 1209. From then to Vatican I, we had equity in the order, meaning that there was no distinction between a cleric and a non cleric. All friars were equal. The lines between the ordained and the non-ordained were deliberately very blurred, because our founder took the example of Benedict and Bernard who founded orders based on brotherhood, not priesthood.

To be completely honest, I have no idea why I called you Joseph.

 

[Corki]

Has anybody ever asked a Priest, Deacon, or a Parish Officer person with influence at a parish that does not have Latin Mass about having one? And if you have what did they say in response? I am wondering if it was negative, positive, or spin? I have a parish where the Latin Mass is given, but there are others in my area that does not and I would like to see everybody have it. So I want to see what responses there might be.

I, and a small group from our parish asked our pastor. He speaks Latin already. He said “no”. No reason given but he wasn’t mean about it. We had the money for vestments and altarware but, to be fair, he is already at his “legal” limit of Masses and is alone at our parish.

At the next parish over, a group of about 200 parishioners signed a letter asking for the EF Mass. This was soon after SP came out. The pastor there was much less charitable but also said “no” and did not provide a reason.

Shortly after that, our Archbishop announced he would not approve any more EF Masses than were already being offered (one every Sunday, one once a month and one on Fridays) in our diocese. He then cancelled the once-a-month EF Mass.

Now he has invited the FSSP to come. Not that it helps me much since Mass is at 6:30 am and about an hour away. I would never make it back to get the kids to school. But I am praying it may spread.

 

[ProVobis]

Ok, will you agree to ’ most would have heartily accepted the Mass being said in their mother tongue’?

That might not have worked with my younger brother, as our mother’s language was Polish, and she was very fluent in German as well. My brother, who didn’t particularly care to speak Polish, learned his early English mostly from me. (And I still remind him of it.)

But in your case, what if your husband didn’t want your kids to learn French?

 

[Phemie]

That might not have worked with my younger brother, as our mother’s language was Polish, and she was very fluent in German as well. My brother, who didn’t particularly care to speak Polish, learned his early English mostly from me. (And I still remind him of it.)

But in your case, what if your husband didn’t want your kids to learn French?

Then I wouldn’t have married him. That was decided around the same time as it was decided that they would be baptized and raised in the Catholic Church.

But I said their mother tongue, IOW, their first language.

 

[JReducation]

To be completely honest, I have no idea why I called you Joseph.

I’m not sure either.

I, and a small group from our parish asked our pastor. He speaks Latin already. He said “no”. No reason given but he wasn’t mean about it. We had the money for vestments and altarware but, to be fair, he is already at his “legal” limit of Masses and is alone at our parish.

That wouldn’t work.

At the next parish over, a group of about 200 parishioners signed a letter asking for the EF Mass. This was soon after SP came out. The pastor there was much less charitable but also said “no” and did not provide a reason.

He’s allowed to say no, but he should do it nicely. Maybe it was just a bad day.

Shortly after that, our Archbishop announced he would not approve any more EF Masses than were already being offered (one every Sunday, one once a month and one on Fridays) in our diocese. He then cancelled the once-a-month EF Mass.

Now he has invited the FSSP to come. Not that it helps me much since Mass is at 6:30 am and about an hour away. I would never make it back to get the kids to school. But I am praying it may spread.

I’m lost here. The FSSP have taken over a parish or they celebrate just this one mass?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Te_Deum]

To celebrate the EF you have to follow the rubrics of 1962 and that includes using the proper vestments, vessels, altar furnishings, etc.

Parishes that don’t even have a complete set of vestments for the OF (no rose, no gold, no silver, no amices for when they’re necessary) and function with only 2 candles in the sanctuary, don’t have what it takes to celebrate the EF. Most of the proper vestments were given away or sold if not outright destroyed after Vat. II.

That’s the good thing about groups like Una Voce, especially here. If a priest wants to celebrate the EF but doesn’t have the appropriate vestments, missal etc., Una Voce provides them.

 

[Brendan]

Within the last 2 years.
I know our seminar is just now making Latin a core requirement.

Took your bishop long enough to comply with Canon Law

Besides, Latin is like any other language, if it is not used it is forgotten. Even if a priest did learn it, he would most likely have to learn it again.

I think that is why Pope Benendict included that in Sacramentum Caritas. That is an Apostolic Exhortation, which is primarily a vechile that does not teach anything new, but reminds us to do what we should have been doing all along.

In S.C, Pope Benedict asks of the bishops and priests

Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.

The part 'to use Latin and execute Gregorian chant" is in a ‘continuing’ sense, in that the action goes forward. Not only are they to learn Latin, but to use the Latin texts and Gregorian chant regularly.

The preist I mentionted earlier, the one who took the time between ordination and the start of his first assignment to learn the EF from the priests of St. John Cantius, was ordained 4 years ago. Our seminary has been in compliance re Latin for since at least the late 90’s.

 

[Brendan]

That’s the good thing about groups like Una Voce, especially here. If a priest wants to celebrate the EF but doesn’t have the appropriate vestments, missal etc., Una Voce provides them.

Soon after S.P., our parish added a weekend EF Mass. We had a Latin OF Mass that was changed over to EF.

Our pastor didn’t seem to have any issues finding most of the ‘equipment’. He got a lot from some of the older, inner city parishes, and from the diocsean storage building.

It took some digging, some of the vestments were a bit threadworn in spots, and I think he had to use photocopied Mass cards for awhile, but he got it all together.

 

[ProVobis]

I, and a small group from our parish asked our pastor. He speaks Latin already. He said “no”. No reason given but he wasn’t mean about it. We had the money for vestments and altarware but, to be fair, he is already at his “legal” limit of Masses and is alone at our parish.

I’m glad you realize that. A commitment of one priest saying the Latin Mass every Sunday at the same parish is perhaps being overly unrealistic. There are times he is sick or just has to be out of town. A backup in these cases is desirable, even if the backup is not a regular Latin Mass priest. But the last thing you want to do is to promise something you can’t deliver on a regular basis.

 

[JReducation]

Took your bishop long enough to comply with Canon Law

I think that is why Pope Benendict included that in Sacramentum Caritas. That is an Apostolic Exhortation, which is primarily a vechile that does not teach anything new, but reminds us to do what we should have been doing all along.

In S.C, Pope Benedict asks of the bishops and priests

The part 'to use Latin and execute Gregorian chant" is in a ‘continuing’ sense, in that the action goes forward. Not only are they to learn Latin, but to use the Latin texts and Gregorian chant regularly.

The preist I mentionted earlier, the one who took the time between ordination and the start of his first assignment to learn the EF from the priests of St. John Cantius, was ordained 4 years ago. Our seminary has been in compliance re Latin for since at least the late 90’s.

I urge caution and charity when using the term “compliance” and when quoting this statement by the Holy Father.

First, the statement itself is not law or binding. It was not delivered that way. The Holy Father says, “I wish”. Law has very deliberate wording and there is a very deliberate format for making legal decrees. For example, when we read SP and the Holy Father says that all secular priests may celebrate the EF without permission, he uses the legal format. He avoids words such as “I wish, I think or It may be a good idea.” The wording is very direct. “They may celebrate.” That’s a law. At some point, it will most likely be inserted into Canon Law.

Second, you said above that it took the bishop this long to come into compliance. We can’t make such statement. The US Conference of Bishops has had a dispensation from the Latin from Pope John Paul II. That dispensation has never been retracted. Individual bishops can make use of the indult not to teach Latin or not make use of it, since the indult covers all the bishops. They don’t have to ask for permission individually. The remains in place because many dioceses cannot afford their own seminaries.

In the case where several dioceses or even dioceses and religious share a regional seminary, the seminary must accommodate to the shareholders. That’s why these indults were granted. You can’t be out of compliance, if you’ve been exempted from the law.

With every law, bishops and religious superiors always have one of four possibilities.

1. Apply immediately – that’s pretty straightforward.
2. Apply by X date or Y number of years
3. Apply when the conditions allow it
4. Apply when it is not contrary to ordinary law – this is for religious, it refers to their particular laws

If there is a situation that does not allow for any of the above, the individual bishop, the conference of bishops or the religious superior can ask for an indult.

The issue with indults is that normally, bishops and religious superiors don’t share the information with the general public. They share it when asked. People may not know that there is an indult or dispensation from the law and jump to the conclusion that someone is non-compliant.

Having been in religious life for many years and working for dioceses for many years, I can assure you that for every law there are three exceptions that are in some letter that only a few have ever seen.

Of course, we have to graciously accept when a priest simply says, “No, I don’t want to celebrate the EF.” SP gives the secular priest that choice and we cannot hold it against him. I know a secular priest who is a very holy and devout man. He has been asked four or five times and he has always said, “Thank you for the request, but I’d rather not.”

Many dioceses and religious communities who have not studied Latin or do not do so now, are not guilty of anything. They have permission not to do so, just as they have permission to decline the invitation to celebrate the EF. In our eagerness to see an EF mass, we must exercise restraint and allow diocese and religious communities to do it or not do it on their terms, when their terms are in keeping with the law or they are an exception to the rule. If someone violates the law, then we have a legitimate complaint.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

The part 'to use Latin and execute Gregorian chant" is in a ‘continuing’ sense, in that the action goes forward. Not only are they to learn Latin, but to use the Latin texts and Gregorian chant regularly.

The preist I mentionted earlier, the one who took the time between ordination and the start of his first assignment to learn the EF from the priests of St. John Cantius, was ordained 4 years ago. Our seminary has been in compliance re Latin for since at least the late 90’s.

The SJC also say the OF in Latin. (11:00 am) This usually draws in large crowds, which respond very enthusiastically. Latin and Greek classes are offered for the laity as well.

 

[JReducation]

The SJC also say the OF in Latin. (11:00 am) This usually draws in large crowds, which respond very enthusiastically. Latin and Greek classes are offered for the laity as well.

The Canons of SJC are an awesome community. I like them because they’re very balanced. They love the Extraordinary Form, which is good. They have no problems with the Ordinary Form, which is also good. Best of all, they don’t complain or whine about this or that and don’t waste their energy criticizing or blaming people for this or that nonsense.

They recognize nonsense when they see it. They’re sophisticated enough to know that it’s nonsense and it does not merit their attention. I recall being at a seminar with two of them and someone mentioned abuses in the liturgy and they expected the Canons to say something. One of the canons said, “Those things happen; we try to avoid them and keep going.” He was very calm and did not turn it into a long discussion or allow himself to be pulled into the discussion. They approach these things with a certain dignity and air of detachment that is beautiful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[roadsend]

… The US Conference of Bishops has had a dispensation from the Latin from Pope John Paul II. That dispensation has never been retracted. Individual bishops can make use of the indult not to teach Latin or not make use of it, since the indult covers all the bishops. …

.

In what document is this “dispensation” or “indult” located?
I cannot find it on the US Conference of Bishops website.
I am very interested in how it is worded.

 

[Brendan]

In what document is this “dispensation” or “indult” located?
I cannot find it on the US Conference of Bishops website.
I am very interested in how it is worded.

I too would be interested in finding documentation on the indult.

 

[JReducation]

In what document is this “dispensation” or “indult” located?
I cannot find it on the US Conference of Bishops website.
I am very interested in how it is worded.

To the best of my knowledge it’s something that goes back to some time in the early 80s. I have never seen it. I have just heard about it. There is no reason for me to have seen it, since it does not affect me, because I’m a religious. The formation of diocesan priests is a concern for their bishops, not the religious orders. I wouldn’t be able to tell you where to find it. Sorry.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Pretty much the same happened to me when I dared to even speak the word. They looked at me like I have two heads. Ive been in the church about 12 years now and always wondered about the old mass. The level of resentment I was getting made me seek it out. Ive voted with my feet and now mostly attend a very good EF mass in a neighboring county. I dont dispute that the OF is valid at all but I just prefer the reverence of the EF. No matter what eloquent words I can come up with I cannot convince the EF haters. They dont get it. I still attend my home parish now and then but I dont miss it. No more protestant songs or dancing girls or **people receiving communion like peanuts at a ballgame. **For me its like the OF was my starter mass and now Im at the adult Mass. Theres a reason its called Extraordinary.

I don’t know why you call people EF haters and then turn around and slam them…that is not charitable. Did it occur to you that sometimes there are reasons you may not know about that. For example, at our parish…we have one priest…who is already overworked as it is. We would have to buy vestments, ectra…then we have to either add a Mass or replace one. Well…the priest is already saying 3 Masses on Sunday. We likely do not have enough altar servers for another Mass nor do we have a deacon. We have two completely full Masses on Sunday and the third one is most of the way full (incidently…it’s the more traditional one that is not completely full).

By the way…calling the OF a starter Mass is not nice either…just saying.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I just don’t understand the hostility to Latin.

I don’t speak Latin. You know why the Mass was in Latin? Because people stopped speaking Greek. Why would I want to go to a Mass where I don’t understand anything being said? Sure, if I were to travel out of my country, I would be at a Mass where I didn’t understand so that I can receive the Sacrament, but in my own place?

There is nothing about a Mass in Latin that is more Holy or Prayerful or in any way better than a Mass said in the vernacular. It is worse in that people for the most part, won’t understand it. It’s strikes me as a lot of selfish whining, actually. WE want what WE want and everyone should give us back what WE want!

The implementation of the good things that came from Vats2 was a mess, IMO. It would have been better if they had respected the people enough to have implemented those changes slowly and with great care. You can change to the vernacular without changing one other thing. For a while. You can turn the altar around without changing one other thing. It was arrogant and foolish and almost designed to run people out. They also should have kept one Traditional Mass a week for older people who just have too much trouble adjusting.

But there’s nothing better about a Latin Mass and, in fact, things not as good. Which is why they changed it. And at this point in time, no reason to have any. This constant complaint about Latin Mass is all about the few who want something special for themselves.

How does that attitude lead to holiness? I would not have commented except you said you do not understand. If the Church or your Pastor wish to indulge you, fine. But I find anything that separates us, not a good thing. In fact, I find the implicit in your attitude the idea that somehow you are a better and more devout Catholic than I am. You may not think that, but it’s seems pretty likely to me. I applaud every Pastor who refuses to indulge this.

 

[roadsend]

Every reference to a Latin exemption dispensation or indult that I have found is anecdotal in nature (e.g.“I heard that” or “somebody told me”).

The Program for Priestly Formation of the U.S. Catholic bishops

nccbuscc.org/vocations/ProgramforPriestlyFormation.pdf

states pretty clearly that

“A knowledge of Latin and the biblical languages is foundational and should
be given the emphasis that the Church accords it.117 Particular attention must be given to ensure that before entering the theologate all seminarians
can demonstrate that they have acquired that “knowledge of Latin which will enable them to understand and make use of so many scientific
sources and of the documents of the Church,” according to the insistence of the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council.”

It seems that if this “dispensation” actually existed, it would at least be referenced in this document.
Early on I had a number of good padres tell me among other things that Vatican II mandated our Communion Rails be removed and that Latin in Church had been “outlawed”. These guys actually believed this.
Is it possible that this “dispensation” is also part of the fog or unfounded legends of Vatican II which just weren’t so?

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t speak Latin. You know why the Mass was in Latin?
Because people stopped speaking Greek.

Of course this is nonsense.

There is nothing about a Mass in Latin that is more Holy or Prayerful or in any way better than a Mass said in the vernacular. It is worse in that people for the most part, won’t understand it. It’s strikes me as a lot of selfish whining, actually.

Isn’t this what the Church of England and Martin Luther taught over 400 years ago? I thought the Council of Trent put aside all that nonsense and made it clear that the Mass was supposed to be explained to the people, not to put it into a one-size-fits-all translation. Big difference.

 

[FAB]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae
I don’t speak Latin. You know why the Mass was in Latin?
Because people stopped speaking Greek.