Reaction from Priests/Deacons/Parish officials about Latin Mass

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We can start witht he training of the priest, and deacons to be able to properly serve the mass, this would include the learing of Latin …
FYI, the 1983 Code of Canon Law ( #249), 2006 Program for Priestly Formation, as well as Pope Benedicts Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritas all require that the priest learn sufficent Latin to be able to say the Mass in Latin, so that part should not be a problem for any priest ordained recently.

We have had several men from our parish ordained in the last few years, and two of them have taken the time to be trained in the EF by the priests of St. John Cantius in Chicago. They each spend a few weeks after their ordination, but before their assignement was effective, learning the EF.

All of the men recently ordained were trained to say the OF Mass in Latin while in the seminary.
 
Not the Poles and Hispanics.
The parish my grandmother went to was half Irish and half hispanic. The Mass was the EF Mass said in Latin, with the readings and the homily given in both languages.

When Vatican II came around, the pastor there just said the OF Mass, ad orientum, in Latin and the readings and the homily was done in both languages.

Since my father often took my grandmother to Mass on Sunday, that was how I learned the Latin responses 🙂

Now, parishes are generally ‘balkanized’ with two different groups of people attending the same parish, but not knowing each other. Kinda sad really.
 
FYI, the 1983 Code of Canon Law ( #249), 2006 Program for Priestly Formation, as well as Pope Benedicts Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritas all require that the priest learn sufficent Latin to be able to say the Mass in Latin, so that part should not be a problem for any priest ordained recently.
Is this actually widespread though? Is extensive Latin really a part of seminary curricula?
 
Our local PV was very interested in having a few private Masses in Latin (OF), but he was not interested in an EF Mass (no one in our twin cities of College Station and Bryan TX are interested). He said, “I will say Mass as it is said in Rome by the Pope.” He’s a solid priest that gives hard-hitting homilies, and he has shown himself to be very loyal to HMC, so I decided to help him learn the Mass in Latin. Hopefully something will come of it. It helps that I’m a member of a men’s gregorian chant group, and the music director at the parish is very supportive of a Latin Mass (OF or EF). That is a HUGE help.
 
Apologies for being sarcastic, but is it really that difficult?
  • [Which is why the Holy Father sends me a reminder each January 1st that I alone am not permitted to serve Mass. And that I have to sit in the back row, so I don’t embarrass myself. Or get the other attendees confused.]
Some years ago I was at the Vatican and an American priest got permission to say Mass at the tomb of St. Peter. He got vested up and got a couple of altar boys assigned. And although the altar boys expected to say the Mass in English, the priest began the Mass in Latin and the altar boys never missed a beat.*
 
There is much more involved in just asking for a mass. A small groups in a parish must also be willing to provide the finacial recouces to do it. There are expenses that, unless a parish had unlimted funds and there are not any of those would have to encur. We can start witht he training of the priest, and deacons to be able to properly serve the mass, this would include the learing of Latin as well as the Rite itself. There is the then then purchase of books, vestments, altar appointments, vessels that are required to celebrated the mass.
All this has to be weighed against other more pressing needs in a parish.
It would be better if there were a large enough group in a diocese, to pool their resources, approach the ordianary and offer to build a parish for the celebration of the mass.
In other words, put your time talents and treasure were your mouth is.
Thanks for this clear explanation. This is especially true in “new” parishes (less than 45 or so years old) that wouldn’t even have the old vestements, books, etc in mothballs somewhere. We also have to consider the priest’s time. If he is already saying 2 or 3 (or more) Masses a Sunday, where will he fit in another?

We are very blest to live in a reverant, orthodox, thriving diocese. There are several EF Masses each Sunday within a reasonable drive, but most importantly, the OF Masses in every parish I have been to are reverant, correct, and beautiful. With good homilies, music, and even some incense. 😉
 
FYI, the 1983 Code of Canon Law ( #249), 2006 Program for Priestly Formation, as well as Pope Benedicts Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritas all require that the priest learn sufficent Latin to be able to say the Mass in Latin, so that part should not be a problem for any priest ordained recently.

We have had several men from our parish ordained in the last few years, and two of them have taken the time to be trained in the EF by the priests of St. John Cantius in Chicago. They each spend a few weeks after their ordination, but before their assignement was effective, learning the EF.

All of the men recently ordained were trained to say the OF Mass in Latin while in the seminary.
Until recently Latin has not been a core course it has been an elective. Since the number that may know Latin, those ordained in recent years is relatively small, this is still an issue. There are still the other opportunities to address.
 
I had no idea that it was so difficult to “learn” the Mass in Latin.

When I was in first grade, I memorized all the responses in a matter of days.

And probably I could recite them today with a little coaching.

And I had no idea, that in order to say a Mass in Latin, you needed to buy all new vestments and altar linens.

“Ad deum qui … latificat, juven tutam meam” I go to the altar of God who gives joy to my youth. ???

Probably got that all wrong. Haven’t even thought about it since 1950.

And I never was an altar boy; I just was given the little booklet and memorized the responses. The first time I served Mass was when I was almost 30 and it was in English.
To celebrate the EF you have to follow the rubrics of 1962 and that includes using the proper vestments, vessels, altar furnishings, etc.

Parishes that don’t even have a complete set of vestments for the OF (no rose, no gold, no silver, no amices for when they’re necessary) and function with only 2 candles in the sanctuary, don’t have what it takes to celebrate the EF. Most of the proper vestments were given away or sold if not outright destroyed after Vat. II.
 
Apologies for being sarcastic, but is it really that difficult?
  • [Which is why the Holy Father sends me a reminder each January 1st that I alone am not permitted to serve Mass. And that I have to sit in the back row, so I don’t embarrass myself. Or get the other attendees confused.]*
To answer the question is it really that difficult. For those not schooled and familiar with the Latin Rite YES.
 
To celebrate the EF you have to follow the rubrics of 1962 and that includes using the proper vestments, vessels, altar furnishings, etc.

Parishes that don’t even have a complete set of vestments for the OF (no rose, no gold, no silver, no amices for when they’re necessary) and function with only 2 candles in the sanctuary, don’t have what it takes to celebrate the EF. Most of the proper vestments were given away or sold if not outright destroyed after Vat. II.
Amazing.

Not doubting you.

Just … well, you would think that to get the ball rolling, the bishop would issue a “dispensation” for a few years … so if a priest felt moved to do so, he could say a Mass in Latin without all the vestments, etc.

I just don’t understand the hostility to Latin.

I remember one priest referring to the older vestments as “shell backs”. And they didn’t have air conditioning in the “old days”. So, you just focused on the Mass.

One pastor complained to me that under the “old rules” the altar boys were kept pretty busy moving the missal from one side of the altar to the other, etc, but that with the new rules, they didn’t have much to do.

Another pastor commented that it was reasonable to reduce the number of “blessings” they did of the bread etc, but that when the “rubrics” were rewritten they didn’t just simplify the Mass structure, but he complained that they totally butchered it.

[Is it unusual for priests and pastors to tell me all this “inside stuff”? Seems like a lot of priests would like to be able to say a Mass in Latin without making it into a “Federal case”]
 
Amazing.

Not doubting you.

Just … well, you would think that to get the ball rolling, the bishop would issue a “dispensation” for a few years … so if a priest felt moved to do so, he could say a Mass in Latin without all the vestments, etc.

I just don’t understand the hostility to Latin.
You can’t get a dispensation to change the rubrics or leave sections out. That would be as abusive as the problems many witness at OF Masses every week.

I think many (most?) are looking for abuse-free, reverent, beautiful liturgies. That is entirely possible with the OF, including chant, bells, and smells - even Latin. An EF high Mass with a schola, etc. is truly a gorgeous thing, but isn’t going to be an every Sunday thing anywhere in the US anytime soon. It didn’t happen too often in the past either.

Yes, more people are likely to get a regular EF Mass near them in the upcoming years, but I still don’t imagine that the OF will be replaced. It is important to continue to push for reverence and correctness in every Mass, whatever the form.
 
Has anybody ever asked a Priest, Deacon, or a Parish Officer person with influence at a parish that does not have Latin Mass about having one? And if you have what did they say in response? I am wondering if it was negative, positive, or spin? I have a parish where the Latin Mass is given, but there are others in my area that does not and I would like to see everybody have it. So I want to see what responses there might be.
He was hatefull about it.
 
The point is if Vatican II wanted to include the laity and the laity was asking for the EF Mass to be said in English, Spanish, Polish, etc. why not accomodate them but they didn’t. The Mass was changed to NO and that was said in whatever language.
Actually they did that with the “Mass of 1965.” Vernacular was very much allowed in the pre-NO Mass, in fact much was written questioning the validity of the all-English canon in the 60’s.
 
Well, since it’s part of the 1983 CCC, how are you defining ‘recently’.
Within the last 2 years.
I know our seminar is just now making Latin a core requirement.

Besides, Latin is like any other language, if it is not used it is forgotten. Even if a priest did learn it, he would most likely have to learn it again.
 
. Perhaps something about his order prevents him from doing EF masses. He’s a Redemptorist, along with the other two priests.
This is very important. When a bishop hands over a parish either to a religious congregation or to a religious order, he agrees, in the name of the laity, to accept the spirituality, policies and authority of that particular religious institute. This is something that the laity of yesteryear knew very well. Many did not want religious in their parishes, because it bound them to the religious superiors and founders. As the Church grew in numbers, people lost touch with the inner workings of the Church. They just wanted a parish. Religious were sent to take over or to start one. The laity was happy.

Today, we have the EF question. The laity is not too happy when a congregation like the Redemptorist or an order like the Franciscans says that their priests can only celebrate the EF if the superior feels that it is good for the religious community.

The confusion comes, because most lay people in parishes run by religious do not know that they have been committed to accept the policies and decisions of the religious superior. In other words, you don’t have to be a Redemptorist in your parish. However, whatever the Redemptorists legislate for their men, you have to accept. If you challenge it or refuse to let the superior govern his men, he has the power and freedom to pull them out. His first duty is to his brothers, not to the parish. The Redemptorists assigned to the parish have a duty to the parish. The superior has a duty to the community. The men assigned to the parish have a moral obligation to obey the superior. Everyone has to be diplomatic. If the Redemptorists leave, the bishop has to find someone to cover this parish or close it. I have seen this happen in over 100 parishes where the religious superior simply pulled his men for different reasons. In three parishes that I know, the laity were at fault. They wanted what the superior was unwilling to allow. More than half of these parishes end up closed, because the bishops do not have the men nor the money to keep them open.
FYI, the 1983 Code of Canon Law ( #249), 2006 Program for Priestly Formation, as well as Pope Benedicts Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritas all require that the priest learn sufficent Latin to be able to say the Mass in Latin, so that part should not be a problem for any priest ordained recently.

We have had several men from our parish ordained in the last few years, and two of them have taken the time to be trained in the EF by the priests of St. John Cantius in Chicago. They each spend a few weeks after their ordination, but before their assignement was effective, learning the EF.

All of the men recently ordained were trained to say the OF Mass in Latin while in the seminary.
We can’t forget that many conferences of bishops and many major superiors of religious men are holding in their hands dispensations from these regulations. It first began with religious superiors who presented the Vatican with a conflict. The 1983 law said one thing and the rule of the order said another. The superiors did not have the authority to change the rule. Only the founder or the pope could do that. The Vatican does not want to touch the rules of: Benedict, Augustine, Francis, Albert, and Basil. All other rules are subject to change, but these are set in stone. Religious communities that follow these rules and found themselves in a bind between the rule and the law were given a dispensation from the law.

Bishop’s conferences followed with the same request and many were granted a dispensation either as conference or as individual dioceses. Not everyone who is studying to be a priest is legally bound to study Latin.

In my own Franciscan family, those of us who are older studied it and often even spoke it fluently. Later, the requirement was dropped and the younger men did not study it or they studied just enough to decode it, but not really understand what they were reading. This change came about because of the need to equalize the friars. You have to provide the same formation to the friars studying to be priests and to those who are not going to be priests. Parallel formation programs creates a distinction that sets the priest apart. This is contrary to the rule.

Today, a new arrangement has been made which complies with the rule. All friars, priest or not, are the same, but allows for Latin. Everyone must know enough Latin to read it. This way you don’t set apart those men who are going to be ordained. You don’t want to do that among Franciscans and Benedictines or their branches. We hope that the laity understands this and accepts this.

Many dioceses are working on programs that allow their men to learn Latin, while preserving their indult. In other words, the classes are offered as an elective. Those who want to take them can do so.

This whole formation in Latin is very complicated. Because when the Holy Father and Canon Law speak, they are speaking about the norm, not the exceptions. The problem is that there are so many religious communities and dioceses that have been granted a dispensation from the law, that the norm may be a minority. I don’t really know, because I have never seen the numbers. It feels that way to me. This may become one of those laws that’s an ideal to work toward, not a description of the reality.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Brother Joseph, specifically regarding Latin, why did your religious community request an indult from having to learn it? I mean, I’m pretty sure the members had to before VII, so what’s the change now? To follow suit with the “mainstream” of the rest of the church? Or what?
 
Brother Joseph, specifically regarding Latin, why did your religious community request an indult from having to learn it? I mean, I’m pretty sure the members had to before VII, so what’s the change now? To follow suit with the “mainstream” of the rest of the church? Or what?
We were founded in 1209. From then to Vatican I, we had equity in the order, meaning that there was no distinction between a cleric and a non cleric. All friars were equal. The lines between the ordained and the non-ordained were deliberately very blurred, because our founder took the example of Benedict and Bernard who founded orders based on brotherhood, not priesthood.

After Vatican II, the ordained friars were given control of the order. Two separate formation programs were established. Those friars who were going to be ordained went through one formation program while the rest of the friars went through another. Obviously, those friars who were going to be ordained had to learn Latin to celebrate mass.

The sad part was that the other friars were not allowed to study. They were assigned to be servants to the ordained. A great deal of resentment developed, especially toward the laity, because the laity applauded the extinction of the non-ordained friar. They didn’t want them as theologians, spiritual directors, seminary professors, retreat masters, administrators, etc, ministries that they had held since the time of Francis.

About 1955, the friars realized that the order was in serious trouble. The number of vocations was very high, higher than it had ever been. However, none of the men entering wanted to be friars. They wanted to be priests. The order was not founded as an order of priests. We had priests who joined the order to be brothers, not the other way around. Francis himself was not a priest. Anthony of Padua was a preach, scholar and superior long before he was ordained. He was ordained about five years before his death, after some 13 years of religious life. The same was true of Bonaventure and many great Franciscans. It was clear that those days were gone. The friar petitioned Pope Pius XII to declericalize. However, the petition was too late. Pope Pius died in 1958.

The friars had to wait. Vatican II issued “Perfectae Caritatis.” Pope Paul VI would later issue the command to declericalize and return to the 13th century, where all friars are equal and priests occupy no special place in the community. By 1970, everyone was back in school, studying theology, philosophy, secular sciences and technical studies, such as mechanics, electricity, plumbing etc. Latin was taken out of the curriculum when Pope Paul abrogated the Seraphic Missal. Since we no longer had our own missal, we were to adopt the Roman Missal.

In 1970, the General Chapter decided that the study of Latin was no longer necessary, because we no longer had our own missal or breviary and the Roman Missal had been translated.

However, things changed in the mid 70s when the Franciscan Liturgical Commission decided to reject the Roman Missal, because it forced Franciscans to follow the liturgical calendar of the Church and not the calendar of the order. Pope Paul agreed to a compromise and the Roman-Franciscan Missal, breviary and liturgical calendar were approved, but they were in modern languages. Latin was not required.

When Canon Law changed in 1983 and this article was inserted in to the law, it created a problem. On the one hand, Vatican II, the pope and the general chapter were saying that we had to return to the origins. “All friars were equal. Priests have no special place in the order. You may not enter the order to become a priest; but you enter to be a Franciscan, even if you are a priest…” And on the other hand, you had this canon that was in conflict with the mind of Francis. The question on the table was, which does the Church want. “Are we an order that caters to priests or are we a brotherhood as St. Francis founded in 1209?” The Vatican ruled that the decision of Vatican II should stand and the order had to return to the 13th century. Since there didn’t seem to be a reason to learn Latin, the friars were not bound by the canon.

In later years, about the 1980s, many friars were interested in Latin for many reasons, mostly academic ones. It was first brought back as an elective. Later, some of the friars from the different obedience (branches of the order) wanted to celebrate the OF in Latin. But they could not do it unless all the friars agreed. This time, the order was very careful not to allow the priests to set the pace or to give in to the laity. Since the Franciscan have over 1.7 million men and women, we no longer govern ourselves as one body. We are divided into obediences. These are communities of men, women or men and women in one community, each with its own superior general. They range from 10 to 15,000 per obedience.

The agreement was reached that each community decides whether or not to study Latin, but it must include everyone, not just those who are going to be ordained. This allows everyone to pray together. It also required that the Roman-Franciscan Missal remain in place, both in Latin and in modern languages.
 
When SP came out, there was a big question as to whether or not the Seraphic Missal was back. The answer has been “negative.” It remains abrogated, because it predates 1962. However, we can modify the EF according to our customs and we can celebrate the EF according to our calendar, not the EF calendar. It’s the same EF mass, but if you go to one of ours you may find yourself celebrating a Franciscan solemnity when the rest of the EF world is celebrating an ordinary day. Also, because you cannot exclude the non ordained or have lines of distinction between the ordained and the non ordained, you will see everyone in the sanctuary or no communion rails. It all depends on the size of the sanctuary. The celebrant must vocalize loudly or use a microphone so that the friars and laity can respond. There are to be no scholas and no Gregorian Chant, but you can use other forms of sacred music and women must be allowed to sing. The sisters really do a beautiful job with the music.

It’s not as simple as following as fad. As you can see, the life and identity of an old and honorable way of life was at risk. It took almost 50 years to fix the damage that had been done by Vatican I. The Council Fathers of Vatican I had no idea that this kind of clericalization would happen. This was an abuse of what they had in mind. Vatican II, Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II had to unravel the mess.

Interesting stuff . . . Franciscans are not the only ones struggling for survival. The Trappists are in the same boat and several other Benedictine branches.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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