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Julia_Mae
Guest
No, actually, it would look like it looked later after the reforms that were needed and asked for were implemented, anyway. And, we are now, also, getting far from the topic.
Reaction from Priests/Deacons/Parish officials about Latin Mass
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Riverrock1
Guest
Hi all. Well, I’ve read an awful lot of words of people trying to convince us that the OF is just as great (if not greater) than the EF. It’s valid, yes, but just as great? For me, not so much. I’m not a scholar, or a PHD or a priest or a brother. I’m just an ordinary man. Again, it’s not the language it’s in, but the rubericks and the reverence (or lack thereof). If they wanted it to be in the vernacular, all they had to do is say the same Mass in english. They didn’t. They also changed eveything about it. You can tell by looking at some of the people who attend and how casual they are in dress, in respect, etc. At the EF, people are respectful in all those areas, even the young people. They ACT like they are in front of Jesus, because they ARE. They are awed and they actually show it. To a simpleton like me, that says a lot. Maybe I AM expecting Bing Crosby, I don’t know. All I know is that I love it much more than I though I would. The great thing about our faith is that we can attend whichever form we prefer and both are valid. See you at Mass.
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JReducation
Guest
I think that you have hit on several important points. It was not the intent to change the language. You could keep the1962 missal in modern languages. Pope Paul wanted to reform the liturgy or restructure it. We can debate whether it was prudent or not until the cows come home. The fact is that he had the right and authority to do so.
Next, it is important to remember that the reverence was not supposed to be taken out of the form. That was not part of the program. As Pope Benedict once said, people decided to get “creative” (notice quotation marks). If you see the Ordinary Form celebrated as it is meant to be celebrated it is very simple compared to the Extraordinary Form, but it has a beautiful austerity of its own.
As to dress, I believe that this is not a fault of the form, but a fault of today’s society. As a sage pastor onces said, “We love seeing you at mass, just not as much of you.”
I was a university professor for many years, hence the Education after my initials. I saw the classroom decorum and dress change from smart and casual to idiotic and slobbish. Having lived in South America, North America and Europe, I notice that this is a problem in the northern hemisphere and maybe Australia. If you visit South America, kids dress in uniforms for school. People wear shirts and ties to work. Ladies wear slacks and modest skirts at the office, with sleeves and at times even blazers. On Sundays, people wear nice clothes for mass according to their economic means. In Europe and North America, we have equated dress and freedom of speech. I’m not so sure that the two are the same thing or should be seen as the same thing.
If dress is freedom of speech, then we in the northern hemisphere are doing a lot of vulgar talking. We dress inappropriately in most situations, not just church. My guess is that those nicely dressed people at the EF mass are the same nicely dressed people at school, work and other places. It’s not the EF, it’s the fact that they have good taste.
Your closing remark is right on the money. We should be grateful that we have a choice in forms. We just need to learn to behave.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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OraLabora
Guest
I’m too young to remember the EF when it was the only Mass, and there’s no EF in my area. However there’s a very reverential OF Mass with Gregorian chant at a Benedictine abbey; Latin propers and Ordinary (Greek Kyrie of course) and everything else in French plainchant.
I was reflecting at Mass though on a particular richness that the EF simply does not have and that is with the readings. In the EF the OT is rarely heard, same thing for the gospel of Mark. In reality the Word, and the Eucharist, are the “meat” of the Mass as it were, with of course the Eucharist being the high point. Yes there is a lot of theological richness in the EF; but who among laypeople can appreciate the theology behind the gestures? At the end of the day the extra ornamentation of the EF can come across to me as just that… ornamentation that added up over time. Some of the most beautiful Masses I have been to were simple, weekday 7 am Masses with no music, and a simple one or two-line homily. No ornamentation, just a beautiful austerity concentrating on Jesus, present for us, on the most ordinary of days. I would walk into the warm crypt church from a cold dark winter morning (at St Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal), would pray at the tomb of St. Brother André, and would sit in the utterly silent and darkened church with a handful of other morning communicants until it was time for Mass, quietly reading Vigils in my breviary. After, I would walk out of the Mass just as the sun was rising on another winter morning, the city awakening at my feet below Mt. Royal, utterly uplifted and refreshed. I wasn’t alone, there were laborers, office workers, a cancer researcher, retired folks, and a rainbow of skin colors. I can no longer go to 7 am Mass there due to a job change, and I really really miss it.
This deep connection with God wasn’t related to the form of the Mass of course, but is related to the reverence with which it was celebrated, to my inner disposition to God, and to Jesus made truly present for a handful of sinners going about their daily business. I am sure when the Oratory was saying the pre-Vatican II low Masses it was the same.
Then today I was at an OF Mass at a Benedictine Monastery: pipe organ, bells and incense, entrance and exit processions, Gregorian propers and ordinary in Latin/Greek, chanted readings, chanted EP, long deep silent pauses after readings and communion… it had all the pomp and ceremony of a solemn high Mass, which of course is befitting for a Sunday.
At the end of the day if the EF exists in your area and you prefer it, then that’s great. But it’s not quite right to blame all the nonsense we see today on the form of the Mass itself. I think the Church as a whole would be better served in not clamoring for more EF Masses, which does present many logistical difficulties especially for outlying parishes, but in clamoring to have the OF correctly celebrated. Not to say we should ban the EF of course, but for many getting an EF is very difficult, whereas a properly celebrated OF simply means following the missal for a change!
J
JReducation
Guest
I had a similar experience. Because of my ministry, I travel around the diocese a great deal. Rarely am I at the same parish two Sundays in a row. I have seen my fair share of nonsense in my travels, even at the EF mass.
However, the parish where I had to visit today a Trinitarian Brother celebrated Ordinary Form of the mass. They are helping the people transition into the new missal. This is complicated, because it means transitioning into new melodies for the revised parts of the mass. In other words, the people are learning the new wording and the new melodies at the same time.
For me, it’s very easy, because I have been to mass in Spanish, Latin and Italian, where the worrding is exactly the same, just different languages. For the person who does not speak any of these languages the wording is a little more challenging.
Nonetheless, what I observed was a great reverence in the congregation. They really tried very hard to get it right and they did. To make it a little more challenging the brother throws in the Kyrie in Greek and Eucharistic Prayer in Latin and all the parts that the priest says alone in Latin. The hymns were appropriate for 9/11 and the homily was excellent. I wish that I had recorded it. I had never been to mass celebrated by a Trinitarian. It seems that they have their own form, which I didn’t know. So they throw in a few extras that we don’t normally see at the EF or OF.
The point is that reverence does not come from the form, but from the heart. A long time ago, I attended a funeral mass at an SSPX chapel in our area. You have to understand that we share a car. If one is not available, we walk, take a bus or hitch a ride. It was a very hot day and I had to take the bus. I decided not to wear my habit, but to wear my grey slacks and clerical shirt. I put the tab in my shirt pocket. I should explain that I have leukemia, congestive heart disease and diabetes. Walking in very hot or very cold temperatures is hard for me.
In any case, I took the bus; but typical suburbia, the bus left me about a mile from the SSPX chapel. I was beginning to panic. I was going to be late. In fact, I was late. I walked as fast as I could. In my panic and the heat, I forgot to put my collar on. I arrived at the chapel very sweaty and with the collar in my pocket. I went inside. There was a gentlman at the door as I was leaving. He’s connected with the chapel somehow. I saw him collecting the little booklets with the English and Latin. As I walked out past him he turned to someone else and said, “There’s an NO priest. He’s not even properly dressed and he’s wearing grey.”
I smiled and returned to him. I told him that I was a Franciscan Brother and our initials are OSF, not NO. I thanked him for reminding me about the collar. Then I left. As I was walking my mile or so back to the bus stop I kept asking myself, “Does the reverence end when the priest leaves the sanctuary?”
I’ve been to that chapel again for first communion of a dear friend’s child and have not run into this person, nor has anyone been rude. That day it was cooler, so I wore my habit and I think I turned a few heads, because my habit is always very dirty. It has stains that won’t comne out.
However, my point is that rudeness and inappropriate behaviors are not built into the forms. They come with people, just as good manners and a good attitude also comes with people.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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paul11b
Guest
I’m about to ask me priest about this on Tuesday, how should I go about it??
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JReducation
Guest
Take it for a test run. Put the question on the table and we’ll tell you how it sounds.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I asked something along the lines of, “Father, would you ever consider offering a Latin Mass here?” He responded, “Ah, the Tridentine? No, not at this parish. Our church cannot meet the requirements for it.”
Simple, easy, nice.
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ProVobis
Guest
Sowing seeds is always easy.
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JReducation
Guest
I suggested to someone else to be very careful with language and you should at least get back a polite answer.
Words to avoid:
TLM, NO, rite
Clergy and religious have knee jerk reactions to these terms, because they are very often used by radical traditionalists who have an ax to grind with the Church and the OF.
Good words:
Tridentine form, Extraordinary Form
Everyone knows what they mean and they are not the language of extremist groups.
Confusing words:
Latin mass
This can be the mass in either formn, ordinary or extraordinary. Some places do have the ordinary form in Latin.
I like the way that YTC asked the question, just take out Latin Mass and insert Tridentine Form or Extraordinary Form.
If you want to get a really ugly glare, use NO.
To use Fr. Trigilio’s statement earlier this week. “The NO is no longer new. It’s almost 50 years old and has been revised three times.” This is coming from someone who is EF friendly.
Hope this helps.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Words to avoid:
TLM, NO, rite
Clergy and religious have knee jerk reactions to these terms, because they are very often used by radical traditionalists who have an ax to grind with the Church and the OF.
Good words:
Tridentine form, Extraordinary Form
Everyone knows what they mean and they are not the language of extremist groups.
Confusing words:
Latin mass
This can be the mass in either formn, ordinary or extraordinary. Some places do have the ordinary form in Latin.
I like the way that YTC asked the question, just take out Latin Mass and insert Tridentine Form or Extraordinary Form.
If you want to get a really ugly glare, use NO.
To use Fr. Trigilio’s statement earlier this week. “The NO is no longer new. It’s almost 50 years old and has been revised three times.” This is coming from someone who is EF friendly.Hope this helps.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Julia_Mae
Guest
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Hey, I said Latin, he said Tridentine. If that’s what you mean.Sowing seeds is always easy.
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ProVobis
Guest
Sowing seeds is an expression. He said no the first time but let his mind think about it. Maybe someone else will ask him next week and so forth and perhaps he’ll think about it some more. Maybe not but at least you did what you could. And you have to be realistic too. With all the resentment against “going back” and the Latin (or Tridentine) Mass out there, you really didn’t expect him to say, “Wow, what a great idea!” did you? :newidea:Hey, I said Latin, he said Tridentine. If that’s what you mean.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
There is a post on another thread that the “present Mass” can be said in part or in whole in Latin.
How does the transation of the present Mass Latin differ from the present Mass in English?
How does the transation of the present Mass Latin differ from the present Mass in English?
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ProVobis
Guest
Hi Monte. I could easily write a few chapters on this.
It is different primarily because of the nuances and thought flows in the two languages, no matter how well it’s translated. There was a reason why St. Thomas More condemned English translations of the Bible. Anyone reading different English Bibles, even honest translations, can easily see their differences.
Not only that but a first year Latin student would translate the whole Mass differently. For example, Dominus vobiscum would be “The Lord IS with you” (like it’s translated in the Bible). The subjunctive “BE” introduces a new theology. But it’s accepted by most so that’s the way they’re going to keep it.
The Polish translates a lot better, although it’s not perfect either.
L
Like
Guest
Hey PV, how in the heck did ever find this? I love it!
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YoungTradCath
Guest
The Latin original (I say “original” because this text is what all other texts, including the English, are translated from; it is the default, authoritative text) differs from the English in that Latin is a completely different language from English. In translating any language into another, some words, and more importantly some meaning, is inevitably lost. That’s because the conventions of every language are different. Each language has its own way of saying things, particularly in the realm of figurative language, just as all languages do also. Even if the English/Polish/Japanese translations are very faithful to the original Latin, they still are not completely the same, as the languages differ, and so some things that can only be expressed fully in Latin are left behind.
This situation can be reciprocated. If I write a book in English, and then translate it into Latin, some words and meaning are lost just the same. That is because, as I said, the languages are different.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
I understand all that. Just lay side by side several different translations of any “classic” document and the translational differences are stunning … I did this with St. John of the Cross … amazing differences between six reputable translations of “Dark Night of the Soul”…
Let me see if I can refind that previous posting … because one of the “issues” / “difficulties” with the Latin Mass is the “rubrics” such as vestments … but if a Latin Mass format can get beyond those … then maybe it would be easier.
When I was little, I had several Latin-English Missals. Eventually, I got a Latin-only Missal. So, back then …in the 1950’s, there WAS an acceptable English Translation … and people gave me their older missals as well. * So, I am struggling to reconstruct everything. My old pastor had tried to recruit me to get ordained, but by the time I returned to the “world”, he had moved to Heaven. I should pray to him.*
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ProVobis
Guest
You bring up an interesting point. Rubrics are what most consider “body language” which everyone should probably learn. If you become familiar with all the genuflecting, the bowing, the kissing of the altar, raising of the hands, low-toning, etc. you should be able to tell exactly what’s going on in the Mass, whether it’s in Latin or Vietnamese.
Look at it this way, when you watch soccer or any sport events, does the fact that the commentaries are in Spanish or Chinese prevent you from seeing what’s happening on the field? I know many Anglophones just have to have everything in English even when they travel abroad but seriously…
Do you remember where you got this? I’d love to have one of those. Or at the very least, have the Latin fonts larger than the attempted translations.
M
Monte_RCMS
Guest
Unfortunately, no.
It would have been around 1960 or so. Might have been mail order. No idea where my folks got it. I had been pestering them to get me a Latiin-only missal … mostly because I was a snob. So I got it for a birthday or Christmas. Back then, it was probably not too difficult … “everyone” was very Catholic and people in department stores and book stores had all this stuff at their fingertips.
It was a different world.
Have you tried TAN Books? They have gone through a lot of effort to republish old “classics”.
The nuns at the Daughters of St. Paul have all kinds of neat books. I used to buy copies of encyclicals from them and, in fact, one day on impulse I called them to see if they had a large print Bible. As I recall, they had them with maroon binding and with blue binding. I dragged it out the other day because I am not happy with the one sentence descriptions of the Luminous Mysteries in the little pamphlets and wanted to read the whole of the two major episodes … third and fourth Luminous Mysteries.*
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