Read this if you have an iPhone

[Captain_America]

Situation is worse than I’d imagined:

articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-15/tech/30628970_1_iphones-ipads-apple/2

Social justice concern here; how does one work practically to make things better?

 

[DexUK]

Different parts of the world have different standards about when it is valid to begin work and cease education. For some poor families the best outcome that they can see is for children to work from a younger age than we would accept in the West.

In the UK it wasn’t so long ago that it was perfectly legal for 14 year olds to cease education and go out to work.

70c an hour in some parts of the world might be seen as an abundance of riches.

It is not possible to impose or compare Western standards of living or employment on nations where median incomes, social standards and costs of living are vastly different from our own.

In any case, Apple has strong codes of practice about the employment of child labour and while it is true that sometimes abuses slip through the net, by and large they are committed to ethical practises.

 

[kama3]

Situation is worse than I’d imagined:

articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-15/tech/30628970_1_iphones-ipads-apple/2

Nothing really shocking here, this stuff has been known for years. The only novelty here is that Apple got picked on.

Paradoxically though, the system appears to be beneficial to those abused as well. This is because AFAIK factory workers recruit from poor villagers, and their choice is either work in such conditions or sit at home unemployed in poverty. So, yes, they are exploited but at the end they get a few dollars they wouldn’t otherwise have. Let them work – bad, they are abused. Don’t let them work – bad, they will starve. Loose-loose situation.

Of course one could try pressuring Apple into pressuring Foxconn to ameliorate worker’s conditions, but Apple will claim that they don’t condone abuses and know nothing and blame Foxconn, while Foxconn will say that they are not at fault also, because that the factory is actually run by a separate company, and that company will say… etc.

What’s really revolting here is that the real reason US companies outsource manufacturing to China, is so they can have bigger markup. That greed is good mentality is going to run this world into the ground.

If they instead started manufacturing in the US… Nah, that would require a miracle.

 

[promethius]

Nothing really shocking here, this stuff has been known for years. The only novelty here is that Apple got picked on.

Paradoxically though, the system appears to be beneficial to those abused as well. This is because AFAIK factory workers recruit from poor villagers, and their choice is either work in such conditions or sit at home unemployed in poverty. So, yes, they are exploited but at the end they get a few dollars they wouldn’t otherwise have. Let them work – bad, they are abused. Don’t let them work – bad, they will starve. Loose-loose situation.

Actually, forcing companies to pay American style wages to employees in foreign countries would be catastrophic to their social order. The factory workers would soon be the richest people in the nation, with no corresponding education or social training… the power base would be WAY off, and they could be taken advantage of, or could impose harsh measures on those who have no money.

Of course one could try pressuring Apple into pressuring Foxconn to ameliorate worker’s conditions, but Apple will claim that they don’t condone abuses and know nothing and blame Foxconn, while Foxconn will say that they are not at fault also, because that the factory is actually run by a separate company, and that company will say… etc.

The question isn’t “is this wage fair from an American perspective”, but rather, “is this wage fair from a Chinese perspective.” Unfortunately, from the rural chinese perspective, this is normal.

What’s really revolting here is that the real reason US companies outsource manufacturing to China, is so they can have bigger markup. That greed is good mentality is going to run this world into the ground.

Actually, it’s to keep product prices low, not necessarily for a bigger mark-up. If the iPhone was produced in America the device would cost 5 times what it does now. Rifle scopes have undergone the same transition to foreign production due to costs of manufacturing (which are BY FAR one of the most expensive portions of the technology manufacturing process). Simply put, companies have produced lower prices by exporting work overseas.

This was, after all, the goal of NAFTA and open boarders trade policy… to reduce prices for the consumers, and prices have stayed low as a result.

If they instead started manufacturing in the US… Nah, that would require a miracle.

Actually, to get manufacturers to produce in America is not difficult at all. The problem is that we have a double edged sword in place:

1. we have excessive minimum wages (“living wage”) which make it expensive to hire an American for an unskilled job that a chinese person can do.
2. we have open borders no-tariff policy to make goods cheaper to the consumers (Americans).

Do you see the problem here? If a company wants to produce a good on American soil, they have to pay more for labor, so they have to charge more… then they have to compete against a company that got to produce for LOW labor costs and didn’t pay a tariff to get the goods in the states, so the product is much cheaper… and the American company starts to lose money (for example: walmart putting kmart out of business). The American company is then forced to export manufacturing by unskilled workers overseas as well, or die out of the market.

Slapping a HEAVY tariff on imported goods would drive those companies to begin production in America with American workers again… buuuuuuut it would drive costs of goods through the roof.

Leaving the minimum wage where it is now for the next 30 years would allow the rest of the world to catch up to us in standard of living and therefore wages, and the situation would even itself out, and jobs would trickle back… or we could drastically cut the minimum wage and make it cheaper to produce in the United States (because now companies could pay the same for local labor and not have to pay trans-oceanic shipping costs)… but the downsides to both of these is that the income level of Americans will suffer.

We have to choose one or the other of these painful options, though, or the unskilled labor jobs will continue to bleed to other nations at the same rate they always have, and the only jobs left will be for those with advanced credentials.

 

[Captain_America]

. . . and there surely were good “economic” reasons for slavery and child exploitation, etc. It’s kind of sad to read these serious-sounding justifications of worker exploitation. And a moderate like me can say the word “exploitation” after having read this.

 

[DexUK]

Which would you rather have?

A person in an Asian country in grinding poverty, earning nothing whatsoever and living in squalor and desperation…

Or a person in an Asian country, working hard, earning a little or just enough to keep food in their mouths?

As has been said, the standard of living in such places can’t be changed overnight. They can’t all suddenly be given university educations or what we would describe as middle class lifestyles. The infrastructure for that type of development needs to be developed gradually and in sympathy with the cultural norms of the areas where it develops. Otherwise everything falls apart.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I am actually getting a secondhand iPhone on at the end of this week. What am I supposed to do now?

 

[Captain_America]

Which would you rather have?

A person in an Asian country in grinding poverty, earning nothing whatsoever and living in squalor and desperation…

Or a person in an Asian country, working hard, earning a little or just enough to keep food in their mouths?

As has been said, the standard of living in such places can’t be changed overnight. They can’t all suddenly be given university educations or what we would describe as middle class lifestyles. The infrastructure for that type of development needs to be developed gradually and in sympathy with the cultural norms of the areas where it develops. Otherwise everything falls apart.

False dichotomy. I also suspect the first scenario is a misdescription.

 

[JimG]

The New York Times had a similar article:
How The U.S. Lost Out On iPhone Work

nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all

 

[sleeping_gecko]

Which would you rather have?

A person in an Asian country in grinding poverty, earning nothing whatsoever and living in squalor and desperation…

Or a person in an Asian country, working hard, earning a little or just enough to keep food in their mouths?

As has been said, the standard of living in such places can’t be changed overnight. They can’t all suddenly be given university educations or what we would describe as middle class lifestyles. The infrastructure for that type of development needs to be developed gradually and in sympathy with the cultural norms of the areas where it develops. Otherwise everything falls apart.

Let’s assume that working all day, every day for the privilege of just barely starving (as opposed to having the time to garden and farm instead of assembling our luxury devices) was a good thing… and that the real reason that such companies choose to pay starvation wages (literally, in these cases) is to “keep consumer prices low” and because they’re concerned about the social stability in third world countries. Let’s assume those are the reasons, rather than profits.

Shouldn’t there be marked improvement? What would it hurt Nike or Apple to be able to show where they caused these workers’ wages to increase by a penny an hour each month or year?

For example, if a pair of Nike shoes costs the consumer $90 (just a guess here, as I don’t buy their swill, the width doesn’t work for me when I can get them in my size, and I don’t like the styling anyhow, let alone the sweat and suffering that goes into the shoes), how can Nike claim that the workers’ pay (about 3 cents) is kept low so they don’t have to raise consumer costs? They sell more shoes, the designers might make more money, the retailers might make more money, and the corporation, of course, makes more money, but the workers in these sweatshops continue making a few quarters an hour.

Also, let’s assume that starvation-level wages are the norm. Is this good? Is this right? In America, divorce is becoming the norm. Pornography addiction is becoming the norm. What if I just told my wife, “Hey, sweetie, we had a good run, but I’m gonna run around on you a bit to spice things up. Don’t get mad at me, it’s the norm! Everybody else is doing it, too!”

I’d be in mortal sin, because I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that such matter is intrinsically evil (I’m talking here of committing such acts or lusting after such commissions). Not to mention all the hurt and pain I would have caused to my wife and our marriage.

Sorry if I’m going on endlessly about this, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about quite a bit for a few years. Now, as a Catholic, we have clear, Church teaching that we are obligated to alleviate suffering, comfort the afflicted, etc. Surely, if the stuff we’re buying is causing more affliction and suffering, we should be choosing alternatives that result in good instead, whenever possible.

 

[promethius]

. . . and there surely were good “economic” reasons for slavery and child exploitation, etc. It’s kind of sad to read these serious-sounding justifications of worker exploitation. And a moderate like me can say the word “exploitation” after having read this.

I’m not talking about simply economic reasons… perhaps I didn’t elaborate enough in the portion of my post discussing social ramifications of paying people too much in the form of wages too quickly…

Shenzen is a fairly repressive area to live. A person who lives there has VERY few choices as to what to do… predominantly these include bulk rice farming and manufacturing. The bulk rice farming, as the article notes, is horrendous work. Vital for feeding all of China? Yes, but still horrendous. It’s a socialist provence as well, so don’t go thinking families can split off and just do their “subsistance farming” for themselves… such a thing does not exist as an option for them.

Now, granted that China largely views Shenzen citizens as an underclass, what do you think would happen if those citizens were to be paid American wages (far higher than most Chinese make nationally)? Do you think China, and particularly the Shenzen local government, which are both OCD and paranoid about maintaining the social status quo, would allow that?

No. What would happen is the manufacturing jobs would be squashed, the companies expelled, and the people all returned to bulk rice farming… for half the pay in abjectly miserable conditions (beyond anything at the manufacturing plant).

Even if China allowed it, taking a large portion of a population which is uneducated, largely discriminated against, and disenfranchised, and IMMEDIATELY handing them enough money to turn them into a political powerhouse with enough wealth to be considered upper middle class (if not upper class) in their region/country is LIKEWISE a bad idea, for a series of other complex reasons that would take too long to discuss.

I’m not saying that the low pay is morally desireable… what I’m saying is that we are faced with two problems:

1. Removing the low paying factory jobs puts the people in even worse conditions.
2. Immediately paying them American style wages LIKEWISE causes social problems for them.

The proper answer is a gradual increase in standard of living and pay which will not trigger repressive attacks by the government.

 

[promethius]

Let’s assume that working all day, every day for the privilege of just barely starving (as opposed to having the time to garden and farm instead of assembling our luxury devices) was a good thing… and that the real reason that such companies choose to pay starvation wages (literally, in these cases) is to “keep consumer prices low” and because they’re concerned about the social stability in third world countries. Let’s assume those are the reasons, rather than profits.

Keeping consumer prices low and making a profit are part and parcel… again, look at walmart for an example: they kept their prices lower and therefore sold more, and therefore made more profit. I wonder why you think the two things are separate goals in a company…?

Shouldn’t there be marked improvement? What would it hurt Nike or Apple to be able to show where they caused these workers’ wages to increase by a penny an hour each month or year?

I don’t think you read the article… at least not the portion that discussed the recent raise every employee received from $250/month to $298 per month.

I would certainly call a 19% raise a “marked improvement”.

For example, if a pair of Nike shoes costs the consumer $90…[snip]… how can Nike claim that the workers’ pay (about 3 cents) is kept low so they don’t have to raise consumer costs? They sell more shoes, the designers might make more money, the retailers might make more money, and the corporation, of course, makes more money, but the workers in these sweatshops continue making a few quarters an hour.

That $90 comes from more than just wages and designers.

First, there are the international shipping costs.
Warehousing fees
Distribution fees
Advertising
Packaging
Taxes
Distribution markup
retailer markup (these two markups represent the majority of what you pay)
legal services (for potential lawsuits)
etc, etc, etc.

And who makes money? Not just the corporation, designers, and retailers:
The manufacturers
The international shipping firm
warehouse employees
distributor employees (truck drivers, sales reps, etc)
Advertising firm employees
packaging plant manufacturers
the government (so all government employees paid by taxes)
the retailer employees (stocking workers, checkers, management, etc)
the corporation (this is a deceptive term, because the “corporation” is actually a collection of shareholders who invested large amounts of money to make the corporation work in the first place… and this money is then recycled into other projects or other companies)

Also, let’s assume that starvation-level wages are the norm. Is this good? Is this right? In America, divorce is becoming the norm. Pornography addiction is becoming the norm. What if I just told my wife, “Hey, sweetie, we had a good run, but I’m gonna run around on you a bit to spice things up. Don’t get mad at me, it’s the norm! Everybody else is doing it, too!”

If America had a history of exterminating millions when the status quo was threatened, then I would say that the situation with divorce needed to be handled with care and proceed slowly as well. Remember, China has killed more of its own people in the 20th century than all “religious wars” anywhere and ever, combined.

Sorry if I’m going on endlessly about this, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about quite a bit for a few years. Now, as a Catholic, we have clear, Church teaching that we are obligated to alleviate suffering, comfort the afflicted, etc. Surely, if the stuff we’re buying is causing more affliction and suffering, we should be choosing alternatives that result in good instead, whenever possible.

I agree that we’re obligated to alleviate suffering, but you make two errors here:

1. That immediately paying third world citizens American style wages is in any way helpful and does not in fact place them in greater jeopardy.
2. That buying products like this cause more harm than good.

I think I’ve covered number 1 in my last post, I’ll cover 2 in my next…

 

[promethius]

I am actually getting a secondhand iPhone on at the end of this week. What am I supposed to do now?

According to everything I’ve seen on the subject, the best that anyone can do is to buy from sources which increase earnings for the locals.

I base this on my studies of the gemstone Tanzanite, a rare stone found in only four mines in Tanzania.

The study I read detailed that three of these mines are operated by international corporations. The gemstones are mined, and then kept in controlled conditions before being securely taken to crude cutters who work in clothing that has no pockets (and are required to be male, since a woman was caught smuggling stones out in… well… unsavory places). The stones are then rough cut and shipped out, typically through Sri Lanka, for cutting and polishing. All in all, these three mines are relatively safe, generally clean, etc.

The fourth mine is terrible. It has many entrances into the vein and each is controlled by competing local “organizations”… these entrances come in the form of a shack, with a hole in the ground inside. Miners will crawl more than one hundred feet down this tiny hole, nearly naked and armed with only a flashlight and a couple tools. They will then crawl through muddy cracks in the ground to reach the mining veins. The air is filled with toxic fumes of the heavy minerals that surround the veins’ mining operations… fumes that coat the miners when they leave. If a crevice leading to the vein collapses, the people trapped inside will die long before the vein is opened again. There will be no rescue operations like we see on the news. Lung problems abound. Mistakenly approaching the another “organization” mine entrance will get a miner shot to death. The only solace for this hard work is that if a miner finds a decent stone, they are given a large portion of the pre-cut sale value.

Compared with the D mines in Tanzania, the iPhone factory in Shenzen is a five store resort in heaven… THIS place is the very definition of hell.

So after reading this report, I expected a plea from the human rights group that wrote it for consumers to avoid buying the products… you can imagine my surprise when their call to action was actually FOR buying tanzanite. Why?

Because buying tanzanite drives up the market demand, which in turn increases the post-cut value of the stone, which in turn increases the pre-cut value of the stone… which in turn increases the amount of money that a Tanzanian miner in D mine earns when they find a gem quality stone… allowing them, if they get lucky, to afford to get OUT of the mining industry that much faster.

I related that because I relate this: when you purchase things like, say, a rifle scope, you drive up the demand for rifle scopes. This will increase cost, but because cost is tied to profitability, the companies which produce rifle scopes will be forced to increase production to maintain lower costs (or allow costs to raise until demand decreases). Increasing production in a third world nation decreases the free labor pool. Decreasing the free labor pool increases demand for labor, meaning the workers can be more selective about wages and conditions, which drives a progression of increases in support for the workers.

In other words, buy your phone.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

I am actually getting a secondhand iPhone on at the end of this week. What am I supposed to do now?

I wouldn’t really worry about it: you’re less culpable than the person who bought it, plus, I doubt they were really culpable, either, as they probably didn’t know about Apple’s shoddy labor practices, either.

 

[DexUK]

If people are still interested in this, I thought the following news stories would give some perspective on the situation:

Tim Cook, Apple CEO calls the allegations of Apple not caring about Chinese workers ‘patently false and offensive’: appleinsider.com/articles/12/01/27/tim_cook_calls_assault_on_apples_ethics_in_china_patently_false_and_offensive.html

Some Chinese workers employed by some of the manufacturers who work for Apple and others speak about their own conditions in reply to a report originally published by the New York Times: appleinsider.com/articles/12/01/27/chinese_respond_to_report_on_apples_suppliers_in_china.html

By the sounds of things, relative to others in China, those working for Apple’s manufacturing contractors have it significantly better than those working for other companies, some of which are named.

 

[jonbhorton]

Promethius is on point.

All you people crying about China probably, well, actually you are, approaching this from a perspective of blind emotionalism.

china-briefing.com/news/2011/01/19/china-near-top-of-the-list-for-wage-overheads-in-emerging-asia.html

… since the introduction of the revised labor law in 2008, China’s workers are now amongst some of the best paid in Asia.

The survey, conducted in-house, took samples of minimum wage levels from each of China’s provinces and 40 cities, and based its figures on the mean average. China’s minimum wage varies both on a provincial and an urban basis. This was then compared with similar data from other Asian countries. The results look like this:

And it ain’t just Apple:

Foxconn, which makes electronic components for Apple, Dell and Hewlett-Packard, doubled assembly-line workers’ pay amid criticism of factory conditions and a spate of employee suicides.

Source: usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-06-17-chinalabor17_ST_N.htm

Being comfortably dumb and numb Americans, it’s easy to get outraged over a man or woman being able to provide their family food/shelter via a process and job which is, to our standards, well below acceptable. Well, get off your high horse, our grandparents did the same.

If you want to improve China, remove the blight of Maoist/somehow-perverted-capitalism from its soil. Introduce the Church in more than a state controlled setting or some random basement. The Chinese are in the situation they are* because of * totalitarian implementation of failed-from-the-start liberal economic/social policy which is atheistic and redundantly moronic, the same processes which liberals seek to implement here.

News flash: big government + emotional appeals forsaking reason + implementing forced following of bad policy = bad situations like China.

*typed from my Apple computer, will get updates on my Apple iPhone.