S
sandusky
Guest
Scripture is very clear that Judas was not chosen for salvation.
I’ve posted on that subject on the forum; look it up.
- Status
I’ve posted on that subject on the forum; look it up.
C
cfrancis
Guest
OK, that’s fine with me - again, you’re the one who made the statement about Apostles and salvation.
R
Reformed
Guest
Why do you think the website is called monergism.com? I used to attend a Reformed Church next to Westminster West Seminary in Escondido, CA. The pastor was a professor at the Calvinist seminary. The other pastors were graduates from Westminster West. And we had so many seminary students at that church. I think you are extremely jealous that I can boast that all of salvation (justification, sanctification, and glorification) is all of God…to the praise of His glorious grace! Okay, maybe you have Jacob Arminius’s dark sunglasses on today?I never said your Sacred Tradition is monergism.com? What quote are you referring to? And I don’t believe Calvinism have a synergistic understanding of sanctification because I have “semi-pelagius"dark glasses on.” The fact is that articles from monergism.com and other Calvinist websites made the following statements:
Sanctification is both a privilege and a duty. In the one view it is the work of God, and in the other it is the work of man, assisted by supernatural grace. As a privilege, it is graciously promised in the gospel. - Ezek. xxxvi. 27. As a duty, it is required by the law; hence we are called to “make” to ourselves a “new heart,” and to “cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” - Ezek. xviii. 31; 2 Cor. vii. 1.
Unlike regeneration, there is much Spirit-filled human effort involved in sanctification. On the one hand, “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13). “On the other hand,” we’re commanded in 1 Tim. 4:7, “discipline yourself for the purposes of godliness.” God uses means of grace to sanctify us, chief of which are the personal and corporate spiritual disciplines. In the personal realm, these include intake of God’s Word, prayer, private worship, fasting, silence and solitude, etc. These are balanced by disciplines we practice with the church: public worship, hearing God’s Word preached, observance of the ordinances, corporate prayer, fellowship, etc.
And another Calvinist article teaching the distinction between justification and sanctification states the following:
(**d) In sanctification our own works are of vast importance **and God bids us fight, and watch, and pray, and strive, and take pains, and labour
monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sanct_just_ryle.html
It seems to me that Calvinists believe regeneration and justification is monergistic, but sanctification involves cooperation with the Holy Spirit (work of God and work of man).
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
What I quoted comes from that website. Perhaps you can explain what it means that sanctification is the work of God and the work of man under the ingfluence of grace? Can you explain what “Spirit filled human effort means?” So you believe there is no cooperation in sanctification? That the human will is merely passive?
Jealous? I don’t see how you got that. I’m not jealous of you or of anyone. If I’m wrong, then please explain why and avoid reading people’s hearts.God Bless,
Michael
R
Reformed
Guest
Mediate on this verse, okay? I think what you are trying to do is telling Calvinists what that believe as compared to what they believe. Calvinism is just a systematic theology. I think Roman Catholicism is semi-pelagius and you don’t think it is. These are labels my friend.What I quoted comes from that website. Perhaps you can explain what it means that sanctification is the work of God and the work of man under the ingfluence of grace? Can you explain what “Spirit filled human effort means?” So you believe there is no cooperation in sanctification? That the human will is merely passive?
God Bless,
Michael
1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
Please click on the link and look at the quote from Luther.
monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/monergism_grid.html
P
Pier
Guest
They’re not?Romans 2:2-5 is another favorite out of context verse used as a staple by Roman Catholics, just like Phil 2:12 without 13, and James 2. Romans 2:2-5 goes with Romans chapter 1, the rest of Romans 2, 3, 4, and 5., and 6, 7, 8, and 9… and even 10.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Thank you for the verse. All I am asking is that you explain what those *Calvinists * meant? What do they mean when they say that sanctification is the work of God and work of man under the influence of grace? That in sanctification our works are of vast importance? That “there is much Spirit-filled human effort involved in sanctification?”
And the Bible also states the following regarding sanctification:
14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
And a Calvinist says the following about this verse:
One of the clearest passages of the absolute necessity of holiness is Hebrews 12:14: “Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.” “In the Greek text peace is feminine; holiness, or the process of becoming holy, is masculine; the relation pronoun which is masculine singular; therefore the verse says that no man can see the Lord without going through the process of becoming holy.” (3) The Greek word for “follow” (KJV) or “pursue” indicates an earnest pursuit or a dedicated striving after.
And here is another quote from an arictle in monergism.com:
**II. Definition: Sanctification is the gracious work of God by which He makes us holy that is, more and more like Christ. It is most specifically the work of the Holy Spirit, involving our participation, by which He delivers us as justified sinners from the pollution of sin, renews our entire nature according to the moral image of God, and enables us to live lives pleasing to Him.[2]
III. We are active, not passive, in sanctification.
A. I’m sure you’ve heard the common phrases, “Let Christ do it through you,” “Do it in God’s power,” and “Let go and let God.” I find these phrases extremely unhelpful and terribly vague if they are not defined biblically. What in the world does it mean to “Let Christ do it through you”? Does that mean that I am supposed to be inactive? Does leading a Bible study, for example, in Christ’s power mean that I just sit here and be silent so that Christ can do it instead of me? Or does it mean that I don’t use my mind to think about what I’m going to say, but just “empty my mind” and expect Christ to manipulate me like a puppet, causing me to speak and lead apart from the normal operations of my humanity? Does fighting lust in Christ’s power mean that I am supposed to “get out of the way” by ignoring the lust and expect Christ to take care of it automatically, apart from my own personal effort?
B. Absolutely not!!! It is common for people to use phrases such as “Let Christ do it through you” to mean that our role is simply to “give the task to Christ,” and then He will do everything else while we remain passive and watch on. In opposition to this, the Bible teaches that Christ’s power works through our efforts, not apart from our efforts. Christ empowers us to act!
- We are to be zealous to take action in sanctification.
b. We are to labor: 1 Corinthians 15:10. What do you notice from this verse on the relationship between God’s power and our activity?
c. We are to press on: Philippians 3:14.
d. We are to work out our salvation: Philippians 2:12-13. According to these verses, what is the relationship between God’s activity and our activity? Does God stop working when we work? Are we to stop working when God works?
e. We are to strive: Colossians 1:29.
f. We are to pursue righteousness: 2 Timothy 2:21.
C. Thus, living in Christ’s power doesn’t mean that we stop acting so that He can start acting. It is not “Let go and let God” but “Trust God and get going.” Letting Christ live through you doesn’t mean that you aren’t the one who strives and acts, but that He empowers your efforts**
geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/sanct.html
Again, all of this seems to say that the Christian cooperates with the Holy Spirit in his or her sanctification. If I am wring, then please explain what these Calvinists mean by “earnest pusrsuit”, “striving,” and being active, not passive, in one’s sanctification?
God Bless,
Michael
R
Reformed
Guest
Please click on the link and look at the quote from Luther.
monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/monergism_grid.html
R
Reformed
Guest
To suppose that whatever God requires of us that we have the power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ on none effect. - John Owen
Didn’t Augustine say the same thing about the Christian pilgrimage?
What does God do when we don’t cooperate?
Do Not Grow Weary
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. - Hebrews 12
Didn’t Augustine say the same thing about the Christian pilgrimage?
What does God do when we don’t cooperate?
Do Not Grow Weary
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears. - Hebrews 12
M
mikeledes
Guest
No one is saying that the Christian is relying on his own natural powers in sanctification. He/she is empowered by the Holy Spirit.
God Bless,
Michael
R
Reformed
Guest
I know you think we seperate justification from sanctification. But all of it, justification, sanctification, and glorification is one… by the grace of God alone. Look at the Calvinist’s theology as a whole and the big picture.
M
mikeledes
Guest
And Luther also believe that man could later reject the gift of faith after receiving it.I understand that Calvinists believe that regeneration and faith are monergistic. What I am saying is that Calvinists seem to say that human cooperation is involved in sanctification subsequent to regeneration and faith? Again, it is a Calvinist that said:
Sanctification is both a privilege and a duty. In the one view it is the work of God, and in the other it is the work of man, assisted by supernatural grace. As a privilege, it is graciously promised in the gospel. - Ezek. xxxvi. 27. As a duty, it is required by the law; hence we are called to “make” to ourselves a “new heart,” and to “cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” - Ezek. xviii. 31; 2 Cor. vii. 1.
These are not my words.
God Bless,
Michael
P
Pixie_Dust
Guest
Take into consideration that all of the Gospels were written well after Simon was named Peter. A lot of people probably knew him as Peter and perhaps didn’t realize his parents had named him Simon. Those who knew him from his youth would still tend to think of him as Simon, as that is what they were accustomed to. Calling him Simon Peter was their way of making sure everyone knew who they were talking about.Maybe you are right!
Was his name Simon, Simon Peter, Peter or Cephas?
Results from Matthew 4:18 - John 21:11
Matthew 4:18 (Show me Matthew 4)
Jesus Calls the First Disciples
While walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon (who is called Peter) and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen.
Matthew 10:2 (Show me Matthew 10)
The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Matthew 16:16 (Show me Matthew 16)
Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Mark 3:16 (Show me Mark 3)
He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter);
To give a very personal and modern-day example: my middle daughter has gone by her middle name pretty much since she was born. This year, at age 12, she’s decided to start using her first name. A lot of people are having trouble adjusting to this, since they’re used to calling her by her middle name. When I mention her, I’ll sometimes use her first and middle name so it’s clear to the listener that I mean my daughter.
Kephas is Aramaic for Peter/Rock, Cephas is the Greek transliteration.
M
mikeledes
Guest
It is a Calvinist that said:
**(d) In sanctification our own works are of vast importance and God bids us fight, and watch, and pray, and strive, and take pains, and labour **
God Bless,
Michael
R
Reformed
Guest
Of course sanctification is important. Have you read the Puritians? Calvinism is not easy believism that you find in many contemporary churches nowdays. How does the Holy Spirit work in us in the transformaton process? Have you considered God’s discpline when we drift away? I posted Hebrew 12 above. I think you have taken pieces of Calvinism out of context of the system of its theology. The solas are not just for justification because justification is just the start of the process. We struggle, face many tribulation press on…by the Spirit.
G
guanophore
Guest
There are two errors in this statement. One is that you cannot be supplied with the deposit of faith. This is available to anyone who is willing to receive it. It may be, since you are here (and I do notice that you seem to be withholding your contempt, which I appreciate) that you may be open to receiving it.
Secondly, the development of doctrine is not the same as “on-going source of revelation”. Catholics and Protestants agree that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle.
No, Sacred Tradition, Magesterium, and Scripture are like a three-legged stool. Each depend equally upon the other, and none can exist without the other.
It may seem this way to people who have problems with authority. For Catholics, it is because we accept that Jesus only founded One Church, only has One Body, and that it was built upon divine revelation.
No, I see them as equal, but I do agree that for converts, what happens is that they do give up the Sola Scriptura premise,and at that time, are able to receive the full deposit of faith. The result of his is that the Scriptures are then seen in the light in which they are written.
And you were doing so well withholding these contemptuous remarks! Please keep working at it. If you practice loving your enemies, you will perfect your soul.
The deposit of faith is a Catholic Tradition. This verse is written by a Catholic, for Catholics. It is very important for us.
G
guanophore
Guest
So, from what may he be disqualified?Contextually the entire chapter is about his apostleship, his ministry, and not about is salvation, Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord…? (v 1).
Disqualification of his apostleship, his ministry (also, will never happen, as scripture attests).
R
Reformed
Guest
Roman Catholicism stands on one leg which is the Magesterium. The Mormon Faith can make that same exact three legged claim too. But at the end of the the day, they are one legged too with their own brand of the Magesterium.
M
mikeledes
Guest
I know sanctification is important in Calvinism and I respect it for that. I am completely against antinomian forms of Protestantism. However, how is sanctification accomplished in a person’s life, since you believe sanctification is a* progressive *work?
The Bible clearly states:
Romans 6:19
**19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. **
What does it mean when calvinists say that sanctification is a “work of God” and “work of man under the influence of grace?” What does it mean when a Calvinist says Christians play and active role in their sanctification?
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
- Status