Reading Scripture together as Christians

[Reformed]

We are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone. But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and good works.

It goes back to the idea that we know salvation is ours to lose. Catholics know we are saved, so long as we endure to the end.

Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. (I Cor 9:24-27)

There are 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation:

Scripture alone
Grace alone
Faith alone
Christ alone
God’s glory alone

I would say you have embraced three of the 5 Protestant solas highlighted in red, correct?

You understand that I believe that God’s grace is greater than our tendency to apostate, correct? What are you going to do with Michael’s understanding of Augustinian Catholic position of sustaining perserving grace given to the elect only?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

There are 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation:

Scripture alone
Grace alone
Faith alone
Christ alone
God’s glory alone

I would say you have embraced three of the 5 Protestant solas highlighted in red, correct?

Actually, the Church was teaching those three red Solas for 1500 years before the Protestant Revolt. The other two are inventions of men that are contrary to Scripture, so we reject them.

 

[Reformed]

Wouldn’t it be correct to say that it depends on the ground God’s unchanging Word is sown upon? Every person is capable of being saved through Christ, but it is left up to us to accept or reject Him. Think of the people who saw Christ, & still did not believe. However, as no one but God knows who’s going where, we really are beholden to pray that everybody responds in the affirmative, & ends up home with our loving Father.

Go back to the Scriptures and you will have to reconcile bibical concepts of predestination, election, and chosen. Please wrestle with Acts 13:48, John 6, Ephesians 1 and 2, Romans 8 and 9… and let’s go from there.

 

[guanophore]

If you see that at bapstism as being complete and effectual in full atonement and redemption, then apostasy is virtually impossible.

How is that? Most people do not immediately depart to heaven the moment they are baptized! I would say that apostasy is very possible! Especially given the longer lifespan of today.

That is why I do not believe in baptismal regeneration, because so many who are baptized as infants reject Christ later in life.

I agree that there is a very poor catechesis in many cases.

 

[ryanoneil]

Bottom line, we are not universalists right?

If we are using the same definition, we are not universalist.

The command to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ is a unviversal command, but Jesus tells us that the road is narrow and only a few find it. Why are some able to remain on the narrow road to redemption and most do not?

Cooperation with God’s grace.

To those who remain on the narrow road, they will be prasing God for His amazing saving and transforming grace. For the Protestant, grace is completely unmerited by the sinner since grace was completely merited by Christ on our behalf.

And?

 

[Reformed]

How is that? Most people do not immediately depart to heaven the moment they are baptized! I would say that apostasy is very possible! Especially given the longer lifespan of today.

I agree that there is a very poor catechesis in many cases.

So, who is the truly blessed one, the infant who is baptized and dies at infancy? I do not believe in the age of accountability, but many Protestants do.

 

[Reformed]

If we are using the same definition, we are not universalist.

Cooperation with God’s grace.

And?

I think you still need to wrestle with Michael’s belief of sustaining perservering grace given to the elect only? Maybe you can PM him since I haven’t seen his presence on this site for awhile. Maybe he has been wresting on monergism.com for the last several days…LOL.

 

[ryanoneil]

There are 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation:

Scripture alone
Grace alone
Faith alone
Christ alone
God’s glory alone

I would say you have embraced three of the 5 Protestant solas highlighted in red, correct?

I guess it depends how we define the three. (Yes)

You understand that I believe that God’s grace is greater than our tendency to apostate, correct?

Do you believe that all God’s grace is the same?
(ie. sanctifying grace, efficacious grace, the grace of final perseverance)

What are you going to do with Michael’s understanding of Augustinian Catholic position of sustaining perserving grace given to the elect only?

I don’t understand the question. The non-elect never get the grace of final perseverance and they fall from sanctifying grace and die in mortal sin. (because God abandons them as a punishment for his sins)

 

[ryanoneil]

I think you still need to wrestle with Michael’s belief of sustaining perservering grace given to the elect only? Maybe you can PM him since I haven’t seen his presence on this site for awhile. Maybe he has been wresting on monergism.com for the last several days…LOL.

lol.

I don’t know what there is to wrestle with. I’ll never know why God draws one and not the other, so I don’t waste my time.

Are you familiar with those who are elect to grace and those elect to glory?

 

[Reformed]

I guess it depends how we define the three. (Yes)

Do you believe that all God’s grace is the same?
(ie. sanctifying grace, efficacious grace, the grace of final perseverance) No…there is defintely common grace given to all men.

I don’t understand the question. The non-elect never get the grace of final perseverance and they fall from sanctifying grace and die in mortal sin. (because God abandons them as a punishment for his sins)

I think we need Michael to post his Catholic Augustinain position.

 

[Reformed]

lol.

I don’t know what there is to wrestle with. I’ll never know why God draws one and not the other, so I don’t waste my time.

Are you familiar with those who are elect to grace and those elect to glory?

I’ve never heard that before. What is that?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I think we need Michael to post his Catholic Augustinain position.

What for? I am not a Michael-follower, I am a Christ-follower.

 

[Reformed]

What for? I am not a Michael-follower, I am a Christ-follower.

But he quoted Sacred Tradition which should be binding to you as a Catholic Christian, correct?

 

[ryanoneil]

I’ve never heard that before. What is that?

Predestination to grace means becoming a christian.

Predestination to glory means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

Eph. 1:5 and 1 Pet. 1:1-2 speak of those who are predestined to grace. If they do not fall away they are predestined to glory Rom 8:29-30

 

[Reformed]

Predestination to grace means becoming a christian.

Predestination to glory means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

Eph. 1:5 and 1 Pet. 1:1-2 speak of those who are predestined to grace. If they do not fall away they are predestined to glory Rom 8:29-30

Thanks for your answer. Cut and paste exegsis is not good. Where did you find that teaching?

Ephesians 1:5

he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

1 Peter 1:1-2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Romans 8:29-30

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[ryanoneil]

Thanks for your answer. Cut and paste exegsis is not good. Where did you find that teaching?

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-III

Ephesians 1:5

he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

1 Peter 1:1-2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Romans 8:29-30

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[Reformed]

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-III

Thanks for the link. Is his apologetic work considered to be Sacred Tradition or just tradition?

scripturecatholic.com/john_salza.html

What wrong with the Catholic Answers’ answers on the issues? Scott Hahn came from Calvinism. I think most of the contemporary apologetics stuff are not considered Sacred Tradition, correct? I’ve debated predestination, election and chosen with my Arminian Protestant brothers for years. It’s impossible to reconcile these issues without understanding God is compeltely sovereign, and He does whatever pleases Him, and He does everything for His own glory. Man in his fallen nature, wants to be autonomus from God…even Christians still want to be autonomus too from God’'s absolute rule and reign.

 

[ryanoneil]

Thanks for the link. Is his apologetic work considered to be Sacred Tradition or just tradition?

I don’t know how to answer that. Maybe I should email him.

What wrong with the Catholic Answers’ answers on the issues?

I don’t know. Do you have a link.

Scott Hahn came from Calvinism. I think most of the contemporary apologetics stuff are not considered Sacred Tradition, correct?

I don’t know

I’ve debated predestination, election and chosen with my Arminian Protestant brothers for years. It’s impossible to reconcile these issues without understanding God is compeltely sovereign, and He does whatever pleases Him, and He does everything for His own glory. Man in his fallen nature, wants to be autonomus from God…even Christians still want to be autonomus too from God’'s absolute rule and reign.

And what if it pleases our sovereign God to include our will into His will?

 

[Reformed]

I don’t know how to answer that. Maybe I should email him.

I don’t know. Do you have a link.

I don’t know

And what if it pleases our sovereign God to include our will into His will?

I think the entire Christian walk and our prayers is to conform our wills to God’s will. On our own, we want our will to be done, and not God’s will. If we were left to our own free will, nobody would ever choose Jesus Christ for life. Our wills have to be changed to move from enmity and rebellion against God to peace, reconcilation and love for God. We all run from the light because we loved darkness in our fallen nature. The will is never free after to fall. We have free will to sin against God.

 

[ryanoneil]

I think the entire Christian walk and our prayers is to conform our wills to God’s will. On our own, we want our will to be done, and not God’s will. If we were left to our own free will, nobody would ever choose Jesus Christ for life. Our wills have to be changed to move from enmity and rebellion against God to peace, reconcilation and love for God.

I agree.

We all run from the light because we loved darkness in our fallen nature. The will is never free after to fall. We have free will to sin against God.

I don’t know what to say about this.