Reading Scripture together as Christians

[Reformed]

And when does Scripture say man is made alive? Is it prior to hearing or after hearing?

John 5:25

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

It is the dead that hear the voice of Christ and after hearing they live. They are made alive after hearing.

The typical passage to defend regeneration prior to faith is:

Ezekiel 36:25-26

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Calvinists identify “new heart and new spirit” with regeneration. However, God indcates that the reception of a new heart and a new spirit occurs after repentance:

Ezekiel 18:31

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

God Bless,
Michael

Michael,

I think we should try to avoid making this a Catholic debate against Calvinism. We are just Christians reading and studying Scriptures together so we can each grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ…in-spite of our presuppositions. If greater truth is found in Roman Catholicism, I would have to become Roman Catholic to the glory of God alone. On the other hand, if the solas of the Protestant Reformation is truth, then I would hope you will become a Sola Christian to the praise and glory of God alone. We are both here to glorify God and enjoy Him forever…together as Christians through studying the scriptures together.

The process of salvation begins before the foundation of the world for the elect of God.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? - Rom 8

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1

 

[ryanoneil]

Paul makes a distinction between hearing and receiving the gospel as the power of being united to Christ as compared to water baptism. Even John the Baptist who announced the coming of the Lord makes a clear distinction between baptized in the Spirit from water baptism.

John’s baptism is jewish ritual washing which is different than Christian baptism.

When the Lord says “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God,” he is refering to Christian baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

I’m not going to belabor the point because we know that Spirit has come upon people in various ways. I was just pointing out that Paul is refering to Christian water baptism in the first chapter.

 

[ryanoneil]

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

We agree that Faith percieves what reason alone cannot.

 

[guanophore]

Do you think we are born again through faith or through baptismal regeneration?

The Apostles did not separate them from each other. Since we have received their Teaching, we do not separate them either.

I think Paul is clear in Romans chapters 3 and 4, Galatians 2 and 3, and other important letters of Paul that we are justified through faith and not through a sacramental regeneration. Do you believe Old Testament saints were regenerated through the OT sacrament of circumcision or through faith?

No, Paul does not separate regeneration from baptism. There is no “and not”.

I do not believe the OT saints were able to receive the HS in the same way that people were after the ourpouring of the HS. Circumcision was the means of bringing children into the Covenant with God.

In the NT, baptims replaces circumcision.

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Cor 1:13)

Then

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning. (1 Cor 1:17)

Paul is not minimizing the importance of Baptism so much as stressing his primary obligationto evangelize. He is aiming his words at those who lost sight of the Sacrament’s purpose which is to unite us with Christ.

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13)

I think we need to consider Romans 6 as the baptism done by the Spirit and not by men.

Here again you insert the “and not” philosophy. This is not part of the Apostolic teaching. Jesus taught the Apostles to baptize with water. He instructed them to baptize the converts with water. He showed them that the baptism of the HS was not to be separated from the water by entering them HImself, an joining the HS to the water.

They are two different things according to Paul.

No.

Paul makes a distinction between hearing and receiving the gospel as the power of being united to Christ as compared to water baptism. Even John the Baptist who announced the coming of the Lord makes a clear distinction between baptized in the Spirit from water baptism.

Yes, the Baptist did, and when Jesus entered the water, and joined the HS to that baptismal water, John began to decrease. All those who heard the words of the Apostles and believed were baptized. Receiving the power of God is not separated from water baptism.

 

[guanophore]

Do you think God enlightens all individuals minds and wills in the same way He did to Lydia’s mind and will?

I think not. Many, I will even venture to say most, do not respond to prevenient grace the way she did. Those who respond are chosen.

 

[Mickey]

Thanks for your comment on the Scripture. How do your reconcile your quote with the doctrine of being called, chosen, elected, and predestined.

Holy Orthodoxy does not speak the language of the West (Latin Catholic and her protestant offspring). We do not worry ourselves with definitions and explanations using Aristotlean and Thomistic philosophy.

The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessing of life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures: Lecture 18 no. 29)

 

[guanophore]

Holy Orthodoxy does not speak the language of the West (Latin Catholic and her protestant offspring). We do not worry ourselves with definitions and explanations using Aristotlean and Thomistic philosophy.

The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessing of life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures: Lecture 18 no. 29)

Thanks for this, Mickey. The Eastern expression of the faith is so refreshing. I think that most Protestants (and Latin Catholics, for htat matter), have no idea that their thnking and language is largely influenced by ARistotlean and Thomistic philosophy, or that there are authentic expressions of the Apostolic faith that have not been influenced by these ideas.

 

[Reformed]

Please help me understand the Catholic teaching of prevenient grace. Is that a similar position taken by Amrinian Protestant Christians on the rejection of irresistible grace (TULIP)? How does prevenient grace agree with Arminians and semi-pelagism or differ from them?

 

[guanophore]

Please help me understand the Catholic teaching of prevenient grace. Is that a similar position taken by Amrinian Protestant Christians on the rejection of irresistible grace (TULIP)? How does prevenient grace agree with Arminians and semi-pelagism or differ from them?

I don’t think I can articulate the Arminian postion well enough to compare it. The Apostles don’t teach that grace is irresistable, so some child of the Armenian tradition will have to articulate this man made tradition.

Pelagiansim teaches that we can be saved apart from God’s grace. This is not Apostolic Teaching, and this is why it is rejected by the Catholic Church.

The Apostles taught that God desires all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. They taught that God had fashioned mankind to seek after Him and to find Him. Our innate desire to be filled with God can be guided by God’s representation of Himself in His creation, where His divine power is clearly evident.

With the advent of the gospel, all men were called to the obedience of faith. The Apostles taught that God does not call us to do something that He will not enable us to do, so the call (grace to hear the Word of repentance) is given to all, but not all respond. Some want to hide their deeds in the darkness, and do not come to Him that they may be saved.

A good scriptural example of the effect of prevenient grace is found in the book of Acts:

“Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” Acts 2:37-42

Prevenient grace convicts the listener of their sin, and their need for a saviour. If one responds to this call to repentance, one can be baptized, recieve forgiveness of sns, and the gift of the HS. Those who are added (regenerated and joined to the Body of Christ) then progress in the obedience of faith by devoting themselves to it’s practice.

May I commend you again for asking this, and your apparent willingness to have an answer, instead of making presumptions about what Catholics believe, and castigating us because you find them in error. :clapping:

 

[ryanoneil]

This is the best I can find for you.

**"I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life then, that you and your descendents may live. Deut. 30:19

“…And afterwards the continual holocaust, both on the new moons and on all the solemnities of the Lord that were consecrated, and on which a free will offering was made to the Lord.” Ezra 3:5

“And the people blessed all the men that willingly offered themselves to dwell in Jerusalem.” Neh. 11:2

“Because I called you and you refused, I stretched out my hand, and there was none that regarded.” Prov. 1:24

“If you be willing and will harken to me, you shall eat the good things of the land. But if you will not, and you will provoke me to wrath, the sword shall devour you because the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.” Isa. 1:19-20

“If I do this willingly, I have a reward. But if unwillingly, it is a stewardship entrusted to me. What then is my reward?” 1 Cor. 9:17-18

“Tend the flock of God which is among you, governing not under constraint, but willingly, according to God.” 1 Pet. 5:2**

St. Thomas teaches that God, who is the Prime Mover, grants man grace which moves man’s will toward the good. It is all God at this point. God makes the first move. Thomas calls this “operating grace.” At this point, man can resist or not resist the grace. If man does not resist the grace, it is the grace that is allowing his nonresistance and cooperation. Then, by using his freewill, man can actually move toward the good, and the grace strengthens and supports his will toward that end. This grace is called “cooperating grace.”

Both operating and cooperating grace are the same grace, but they produce two effects. The first is to move the will (by virtue of the grace alone); the second is to will the movement of the will (by virtue of the same grace along with human freewill). This is why Paul says, **“for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). **God’s grace first moves the will to the good, and then leads the person to work the good.

St. Thomas is clear that God antecedently wills all people to be saved, which is consistent with 1Tim 2:3-4. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

As Prime Mover, God continues to grant man grace to save his soul. However, man can resist this grace. When man habitually resists God’s grace so that He places himself in opposition to God, God withdraws His grace and allows the person to fall away. ( Thus, God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned as a punishment for their rejection of grace, as His justice exacts. Thus, salvation and damnation come from the same immutable will of God, who wills to save all men, but who also wills to punish evil.

Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills. (Rom 9:18)

scripturecatholic.com/

 

[Reformed]

This is one of two interdonimational Bible Studies that are currently being offered for your participation. Ryan is leading us through the book of 1 Corithians. I hope you will participate.

 

[Ag_not]

When man habitually resists God’s grace so that He places himself in opposition to God, God **withdraws His grace **and allows the person to fall away. ( Thus, God antecedently wills all men to be saved, **but consequently wills some to be damned **as a punishment for their rejection of grace, as His justice exacts. Thus, salvation and damnation come from the same immutable will of God, who wills to save all men, but who also wills to punish evil.

Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills. (Rom 9:18)

scripturecatholic.com/

If God withdraws His Grace - we have no chance. But even on someones deathbed a person can convert and confess their sinfullness and ask for forgiveness. And dont catholics believe that if the priest at that point forgives the sins then the sinner is forgiven. Could it not be the case that God never withdraws his Grace, rather it is US that CONTINUOUSLY reject it. Could it not be then that God doesnt WILL some to be damned, but some WILL be damned because of their continuous rejection through free will, of God’s Grace?

 

[Reformed]

This is the best I can find for you.

**"I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life then, that you and your descendents may live. Deut. 30:19

“…And afterwards the continual holocaust, both on the new moons and on all the solemnities of the Lord that were consecrated, and on which a free will offering was made to the Lord.” Ezra 3:5

“And the people blessed all the men that willingly offered themselves to dwell in Jerusalem.” Neh. 11:2

“Because I called you and you refused, I stretched out my hand, and there was none that regarded.” Prov. 1:24

“If you be willing and will harken to me, you shall eat the good things of the land. But if you will not, and you will provoke me to wrath, the sword shall devour you because the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.” Isa. 1:19-20

“If I do this willingly, I have a reward. But if unwillingly, it is a stewardship entrusted to me. What then is my reward?” 1 Cor. 9:17-18

“Tend the flock of God which is among you, governing not under constraint, but willingly, according to God.” 1 Pet. 5:2**

St. Thomas teaches that God, who is the Prime Mover, grants man grace which moves man’s will toward the good. It is all God at this point. God makes the first move. Thomas calls this “operating grace.” At this point, man can resist or not resist the grace. If man does not resist the grace, it is the grace that is allowing his nonresistance and cooperation. Then, by using his freewill, man can actually move toward the good, and the grace strengthens and supports his will toward that end. This grace is called “cooperating grace.”

Both operating and cooperating grace are the same grace, but they produce two effects. The first is to move the will (by virtue of the grace alone); the second is to will the movement of the will (by virtue of the same grace along with human freewill). This is why Paul says, **“for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). **God’s grace first moves the will to the good, and then leads the person to work the good.

St. Thomas is clear that God antecedently wills all people to be saved, which is consistent with 1Tim 2:3-4. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

As Prime Mover, God continues to grant man grace to save his soul. However, man can resist this grace. When man habitually resists God’s grace so that He places himself in opposition to God, God withdraws His grace and allows the person to fall away. ( Thus, God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned as a punishment for their rejection of grace, as His justice exacts. Thus, salvation and damnation come from the same immutable will of God, who wills to save all men, but who also wills to punish evil.

Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills. (Rom 9:18)

scripturecatholic.com/

Ryan,

This seems just like Protestant Arminianism, or semi-pelagism. Are you saying that sinful man has the final say in his salvation? If so, doesn’t that make man sovereign over God in salvation?

Here’s Phip 2:12 with 2:13

Philippians 2:12-13

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1Tim 2:3-4.
This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

additonal translation:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The better translation is desires instead of wills. If God wills something, it would come to pass. We are not universalists.

Daniel 4:35

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”

Acts 4:24-29

24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, [1] said by the Holy Spirit,

“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’ [2]—

27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants [3] to continue to speak your word with all boldness,

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Ryan,

This seems just like Protestant Arminianism, or semi-pelagism. Are you saying that sinful man has the final say in his salvation? If so, doesn’t that make man sovereign over God in salvation?

God gave us the final say.

He wants us to be saved, but he won’t make us accept his grace.

God chose to give us a choice.

 

[Reformed]

God gave us the final say.

He wants us to be saved, but he won’t make us accept his grace.

God chose to give us a choice.

You sound just like my Arminan Protestant brothers. Please try to support your position or view with the Scriptures. It can’t be done. When personal opinion cannot be suported with divine revelation, then I label that view to be Christian humanism.

Lamentations 3:37-38

Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

James 4:13-15

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”

Proverbs 21:30

No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel
can avail against the Lord.

Job 42:2

“I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

 

[Reformed]

God gave us the final say.

He wants us to be saved, but he won’t make us accept his grace.

God chose to give us a choice.

We are still on 1 Corinthians chapter 1 and 2:

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” - 1 Cor 1

 

[Pier]

ROM 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, so is the lump also: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

ROM 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken, and thou, being a wild olive, art ingrafted in them, and art made partaker of the root, and of the fatness of the olive tree,

ROM 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

ROM 11:19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

ROM 11:20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear.

ROM 11:21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.

ROM 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

ROM 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

ROM 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, were grafted into the good olive tree; how much more shall they that are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

ROM 11:25 For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in.

Emphasis mine.

 

[guanophore]

This seems just like Protestant Arminianism, or semi-pelagism. Are you saying that sinful man has the final say in his salvation? If so, doesn’t that make man sovereign over God in salvation?

No, God, in His sovreignity has created man so that he can choose. This freedom does not make God less “God”.

Philippians 2:12-13

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

If the disciples have no part in the “work”, then why direct them to “work out” what is working in them?

1Tim 2:3-4.
This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

additonal translation:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The better translation is desires instead of wills. If God wills something, it would come to pass. We are not universalists.

God has willed that men choose to be with Him (or not). Indeed, this has come to pass. God allows human beings to reject Him, and His desire that they come to the knowledge of the truth.

Daniel 4:35
all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”

Well, they do say it.

God has willed that humans be with Him for eternity by their own choice. This is according to His will.

27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants [3] to continue to speak your word with all boldness,

God know who will choose what. He knows that some will reject Him.

How do you account for the fact that He permits this?

You sound just like my Arminan Protestant brothers. Please try to support your position or view with the Scriptures. It can’t be done. When personal opinion cannot be suported with divine revelation, then I label that view to be Christian humanism.

A very good selection of scripture has been given. If you choose to ignore it, and cling to your “view” what can any of us do?

I am going to hope that you missed the posts. Use the little blue icon next to the member name, scroll back, and see if you don’t find some great references to human choice.

No one can thwart the plan of God. God’s plan is that we remain with Him as friends, not as slaves.

 

[ryanoneil]

If God withdraws His Grace - we have no chance. But even on someones deathbed a person can convert and confess their sinfullness and ask for forgiveness. And dont catholics believe that if the priest at that point forgives the sins then the sinner is forgiven. Could it not be the case that God never withdraws his Grace, rather it is US that CONTINUOUSLY reject it. Could it not be then that God doesnt WILL some to be damned, but some WILL be damned because of their continuous rejection through free will, of God’s Grace?

I don’t know how to respond exactly because I’m no expert. I agree with what you are saying because God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, but as far as I understand God hardens the hearts of those who choose to disbelieve as punishment for their sin of unbelief. (unless I’m wrong, I think this includes withdrawing His grace)

But we also know that we can be re-grafted into the vine if we repent. God’s will and how our free will fits into it is very mysterious.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I don’t know how to respond exactly because I’m no expert. I agree with what you are saying because God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, but as far as I understand God hardens the hearts of those who choose to disbelieve as punishment for their sin of unbelief. (unless I’m wrong, I think this includes withdrawing His grace)

But we also know that we can be re-grafted into the vine if we repent. God’s will and how our free will fits into it is very mysterious.

Luke 15:11-24

And he said, "There was a man who had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.

"But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

I believe that the Prodigal’s father would have kept waiting and watching for his son to return home until the day he died. Likewise, God (who cannot die) is always waiting and watching for sinners to return to Him, and even when we are “still a long way off” but at last heading in the right direction, He runs to us and throws His loving arms around us to welcome us home.