Reading Scripture together as Christians

[Reformed]

What had to happen to Lydia before see received the gospel proclaimed by God? Please notice the order here too.

The Conversion of Lydia

11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the [4] district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us. - Acts 16

Which sinners believed, and what happened first before they were able to believe?

44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, **and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. **49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

• Acts 13

NIV

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed

 

[Pixie_Dust]

What had to happen to Lydia before see received the gospel proclaimed by God? Please notice the order here too.

The Conversion of Lydia

11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the [4] district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us. - Acts 16

This doesn’t exactly make a good case for Sola Scriptura, you know. She believed the teachings she was hearing from Paul (ahem oral Tradition) and I’d venture to guess he’d not written many epistles at this time. She didn’t go forward while they sang “Just As I Am” for the invitation hymn, so Paul could show her the “Romans Road” to salvation - it didn’t exist yet.

 

[guanophore]

Okay, we are starting the 2nd letter of Paul. I will start by saying Paul is again obsessed with the gospel of God’s grace. He makes a clear distinction between the gospel and baptism.

Can you please explain this to me? IT seems clear to me that baptism is part and parcel of Paul’s evangelism. All that come to faith in Christ are baptized, there is no separation between saving faith, and baptism.

Those who can embrace the biblical gospel have the Spirit of God.

I have seen this interesting and subtle insertion of words into the Holy Writings before. This passage is not talking about “biblical” gospel. In fact, the NT did not exist when this was written. Paul preaches the Gospel that he received (paradosis).

the gospel cannot be received in the flesh.

I am not sure what this means, but if you mean what I think, then I disagree. Paul is writing to a group that all received the gospel in the flesh. It is true, some have received the gospel that were not in the flesh, but not those to whom he was writing on this occasion.

It also makes the point that the gospel is “received”. It was given to the Apostles, and handed down to them. It is not derived from one’s personal study.

The Spirit has to be in the believer before the believer can believe in the gospel of God.

This is not true.

“The Lord opened her (Lydia’s) heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.” Catholics call this pre-venient grace. It is the invitation to repent. Not all respond to this, and become saved (regenerated).

Note in the parable of the seeds, some do receive the word with joy, then when persecutions come, they wither. Some also receive the implanted word, then are choked by weeds. In both of these cases,the seed sprouts, and takes root, then the believer falls away.

 

[wina]

You could more charitably conclude that we are busy so far. All the posts up to now are dated either in the middle of the night or during what will be the workday for many people. Give it time.

Please stop making assumptions about your fellow Christians. Thank you.

Usagi

I agree but unfortunately, I may not able to join in everyday because I can’t be online daily. Work long hours and when get home, I’m already tired to go online.

 

[Reformed]

guanophore:
Can you please explain this to me? IT seems clear to me that baptism is part and parcel of Paul’s evangelism. All that come to faith in Christ are baptized, there is no separation between saving faith, and baptism.

I have seen this interesting and subtle insertion of words into the Holy Writings before. This passage is not talking about “biblical” gospel. In fact, the NT did not exist when this was written. Paul preaches the Gospel that he received (paradosis).

I am not sure what this means, but if you mean what I think, then I disagree. Paul is writing to a group that all received the gospel in the flesh. It is true, some have received the gospel that were not in the flesh, but not those to whom he was writing on this occasion.

It also makes the point that the gospel is “received”. It was given to the Apostles, and handed down to them. It is not derived from one’s personal study.

This is not true.

“The Lord opened her (Lydia’s) heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.” Catholics call this pre-venient grace. It is the invitation to repent. Not all respond to this, and become saved (regenerated).

Note in the parable of the seeds, some do receive the word with joy, then when persecutions come, they wither. Some also receive the implanted word, then are choked by weeds. In both of these cases,the seed sprouts, and takes root, then the believer falls away.

Thank you for your participation on this thread, I really appreciate your contribution. I would like to remind everyone that Ryan and I are going through Paul’s letter together along with all of you. We can comment on the chapters we are on, and can use additional scriptures to support our comments on those particular chapters. We are currently on 1 Cor chapters 1 and 2. What I want everyone to do is to let the Word of God drive our thinking, positions, and beliefs. Please consider going through 1 Corinthinas chapters 1 and 2 instead of reacting to my comments and see if you can answer your own questions by going through the Scriptures together as Christians. I want everyone to wrestle with the Scriptures as compared to just wresting we me. There is a big difference.

 

[Reformed]

Everyone…please comment on these two chapters and them we can discuss the issues driven by these two chapters.

1 Corinthians 1-2

Greeting
1:1 Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and our brother Sosthenes,

2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanksgiving
4 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge— 6 even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you— 7 so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Divisions in the Church
10 I appeal to you, brothers, [1] by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Proclaiming Christ Crucified
2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, [5] did not come proclaiming to you the testimony [6] of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Wisdom from the Spirit
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. [7]

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Let’s honor the Word of God as the Word of God, and let God change us according to the Word of God.

 

[Mickey]

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

The mind that realizes it’s own weakness has discovered whence it might enter upon salvation and draw near to the light of knowledge and receive true wisdom which does not pass away with this age."
St. Gregory Palamas

 

[Reformed]

The mind that realizes it’s own weakness has discovered whence it might enter upon salvation and draw near to the light of knowledge and receive true wisdom which does not pass away with this age."
St. Gregory Palamas

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” 1 Cor 1

Thanks for your comment on the Scripture. How do your reconcile your quote with the doctrine of being called, chosen, elected, and predestined. Here of the words of Christ.

Matthew 22:14

For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Within the contents of this vese, I believe the proclamation of the gospel is a general call to all humanity to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. But those who are chosen before the foundation of the world will come to Christ in an eternal saving way.

 

[cfrancis]

Thanks for your comment on the Scripture. How do your reconcile your quote with the doctrine of being called, chosen, elected, and predestined. Here of the words of Christ.

Matthew 22:14

For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Within the contents of this vese, I believe the proclamation of the gospel is a general call to all humanity to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. But those who are chosen before the foundation of the world will come to Christ in an eternal saving way.

Sounds good to me - and the beauty is, no one knows who is who, so all must persevere to the end.

 

[Reformed]

Sounds good to me - and the beauty is, no one knows who is who, so all must persevere to the end.

It seems you are starting to lean toward the Augustinian position within Roman Catholicism. I agree, to be saved you must preserve to the end. However, I believe Michael is in agreement with me, that those chosen before the foundation of the world are given a preserving grace given only to the elect of God. Do you think that’s fair… that God grants preserving grace to some but not to all? This is a similar view to Calvinism and sovereign grace reserved for the elect of God. Michael, please correct me if I misrepresented your view. This is in the context of 1 Cor, God choosing the foolish things of the world to shame the wise so no one can boast. God is exalted and given all the glory for saving sinners, and mankind is humbled with the doctrine of predestination and election.

 

[guanophore]

What I want everyone to do is to let the Word of God drive our thinking, positions, and beliefs.

This is certainly a worthy desire. However, what makes this difficult is that we all filter what we read through our perceptions. Perceptions are formed by our experiences and education (or lack of it). This is why there are so many different understandings of what the Word of God means. The Word of God does not “drive” on it’s own, but “drives” through our filters, which inform our thinking, positions, and beliefs. You have admitted this yourself.

Please consider going through 1 Corinthinas chapters 1 and 2 instead of reacting to my comments and see if you can answer your own questions by going through the Scriptures together as Christians. I want everyone to wrestle with the Scriptures as compared to just wresting we me. There is a big difference.

You are right, there is a world of difference between what the scripture says, and how you interpret it. It is not possible to “go through the scripture together as Christians” without a discussion of presuppositions. What prevents us from being “together as Christians” are those very presuppositions.

Catholics read scripture through the filter of the Teachings of the Apostles. You read scripture though the filter of the Teachings of the Reformers.

How do your reconcile your quote with the doctrine of being called, chosen, elected, and predestined. Here of the words of Christ.

Matthew 22:14

For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Within the contents of this vese, I believe the proclamation of the gospel is a general call to all humanity to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. But those who are chosen before the foundation of the world will come to Christ in an eternal saving way.

So, you believe that God calls everyone to do something that He only gives some the ability to do?

It seems you are starting to lean toward the Augustinian position within Roman Catholicism.

This comment seems to have no basis in scripture whatsoever.

I believe Michael is in agreement with me, that those chosen before the foundation of the world are given a preserving grace given only to the elect of God. Do you think that's fair... that God grants preserving grace to some but not to all? This is a similar view to Calvinism and sovereign grace reserved for the elect of God. Michael, please correct me if I misrepresented your view.  This is in the context of 1 Cor, God choosing the foolish things of the world to shame the wise so no one can boast. God is exalted and given all the glory for saving sinners, and mankind is humbled with the doctrine of predestination and election.

No, I believe that God calls all to be saved, and HIs grace is available to all, but that some refuse it. God knows who these are from the foundation of the world. Those who receive His grace are His chosen.

 

[Reformed]

guanophore:
This is certainly a worthy desire. However, what makes this difficult is that we all filter what we read through our perceptions. Perceptions are formed by our experiences and education (or lack of it). This is why there are so many different understandings of what the Word of God means. The Word of God does not “drive” on it’s own, but “drives” through our filters, which inform our thinking, positions, and beliefs. You have admitted this yourself.

You are right, there is a world of difference between what the scripture says, and how you interpret it. It is not possible to “go through the scripture together as Christians” without a discussion of presuppositions. What prevents us from being “together as Christians” are those very presuppositions.

Catholics read scripture through the filter of the Teachings of the Apostles. You read scripture though the filter of the Teachings of the Reformers.

So, you believe that God calls everyone to do something that He only gives some the ability to do?

This comment seems to have no basis in scripture whatsoever.

No, I believe that God calls all to be saved, and HIs grace is available to all, but that some refuse it. God knows who these are from the foundation of the world. Those who receive His grace are His chosen.

All things are possible with God. Though prayer and meditation of the Scriptures, God transforms our minds to line-up our will with His will through the Holy Scriptures. Much of the transformation process is changing our wrong thinking including our presuppositions that are in error through the Scriptures by the Spirit.

I think you are disagreeing with Michael with your post. As you know, Michael is a very grounded Christian who is also happens to be Roman Catholic too. You can post all the comments you want, but they don’t mean much if they cannot be supported with the scriptures. Consider 1 Cor chapter 2 again. The key to Christian growth is not our religious affiliations of being Roman Catholic or Protestant. The key is being led by the Spirit, or walking in the Spirit because regenerate Christians have the mind of Christ. Please consider walking through the Scriptures with us.

Wisdom from the Spirit
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[murtad]

This is my sincere attempt for Christian unity. We all believe that it is profitable for Christians to mediate on the Word of God together. Please prayfully consider my invitation in the OP.

I am happy you speak of Christian unity, and perhaps we can agree on veneration of Mary. Let us discuss Romans Chapter 16, Verse 6.

“Venerate Mary who worked hard among you”
[NIV]

“Venerate the Virgin Mary who worked hard among you”
[TNIV Catholic Edition]

True Christians deeply venerate Mary as she is greatest of the saints, for she bore the Lord. Saint Paul himself venerated Mary, and this is why in his epistle he exorts the Roman Church to do likewise.

The Blessed Mother of God’s prayers of intercession have led Saint Paul’s ministry to grow for there is no other way to the Lord except through the Lady.

Many conservative reformed churches are returning to their Bibles, which command them to “salute”, “greet”, “venerate”, or “pray with” Mary our Lady. However, there are many liberal reformed churches that refuse to venerate Mary our Lady but prefer to venerate homosexuals and same-sex “marriages”. One such is the Episcopal Church USA which ordained Gene Robinson.

 

[Reformed]

I am happy you speak of Christian unity, and perhaps we can agree on veneration of Mary. Let us discuss Romans Chapter 16, Verse 6.

“Venerate Mary who worked hard among you”
[NIV]

“Venerate the Virgin Mary who worked hard among you”
[TNIV Catholic Edition]

True Christians deeply venerate Mary as she is greatest of the saints, for she bore the Lord. Saint Paul himself venerated Mary, and this is why in his epistle he exorts the Roman Church to do likewise.

The Blessed Mother of God’s prayers of intercession have led Saint Paul’s ministry to grow for there is no other way to the Lord except through the Lady.

Many conservative reformed churches are returning to their Bibles, which command them to “salute”, “greet”, “venerate”, or “pray with” Mary our Lady. However, there are many liberal reformed churches that refuse to venerate Mary our Lady but prefer to venerate homosexuals and same-sex “marriages”. One such is the Episcopal Church USA which ordained Gene Robinson.

Thank you for your kind and gentle post. You have a very good topic to discuss. However, we are letting the particular chapters that we are studying to guide our discussions. This particular thread is going through the letters of Paul together as Christians. I don’t think Mary will come up with Paul. We are currently on 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2.

I did start another Bible Study thread called “Jesus Christ - Bible Study”. We can discuss Mary on that thread when a particular chapter in the gospel of John brings us Mary in the way you believe we should venerate her. I’m not sure if the gospel of John will have passages to support the veneration of Mary, but let’s go through the Scriptures together and see what we find together. Here is a link to the Jesus Christ Bible Study.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277468

BTW -It’s interesting that you wrote that Paul venerates Mary. Do you mind posting the Scriptures to support that statement in regards to Paul. I could have missed it.

Personal Greetings
16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant [1] of the church at Cenchreae, 2 that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well.

3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks but all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks as well. 5 Greet also the church in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who was the first convert [2] to Christ in Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, [3] my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, [4] and they were in Christ before me. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys. 10 Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobulus. 11 Greet my kinsman Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus. 12 Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; also his mother, who has been a mother to me as well. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers [5] who are with them. 15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. 16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you. - Rom 16

Romans 16:6 NIV

Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.

 

[ryanoneil]

to the church of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be holy, with all those everywhere who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. (1 Cor 1:2)

They are sanctified by the merits merits of Christ’s sacrifice which we believe first come to us in Baptism

That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (I Cor 6:11)

calling on the name is an act of prayer closely linked with the sacramental liturgy of the Church, as in Baptism.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit (Mat 28:19)

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

But Paul confronts immature believers whose allegiance to various missionaries was dividing the local Church.

I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you. I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” (1 Cor 1:10-12)

He reminds them that all these men are servants of the same Jesus Christ. Jesus is the one who alone grants salvation.

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Cor 1:13)

Then

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning. (1 Cor 1:17)

Paul is not minimizing the importance of Baptism so much as stressing his primary obligationto evangelize. He is aiming his words at those who lost sight of the Sacrament’s purpose which is to unite us with Christ.

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13)

He says not with eloquent wisdom because the power of the gospel to move people comes from the message itself, not the messanger who delivers it.

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

This is an unfolding process and the final verdict of God’s judment is still open. In other words there is still hope for those who are perishing and still dangers for those being saved.

 

[Reformed]

ryanoneil
Senior Member
Forum Supporter Join Date: August 29, 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,396

Re: Reading Scripture together as Christians

---

to the church of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be holy, with all those everywhere who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. (1 Cor 1:2)

They are sanctified by the merits merits of Christ’s sacrifice which we believe first come to us in Baptism

That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (I Cor 6:11)

calling on the name is an act of prayer closely linked with the sacramental liturgy of the Church, as in Baptism.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit (Mat 28:19)

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

But Paul confronts immature believers whose allegiance to various missionaries was dividing the local Church.

Do you think we are born again through faith or through baptismal regeneration? I think Paul is clear in Romans chapters 3 and 4, Galatians 2 and 3, and other important letters of Paul that we are justified through faith and not through a sacramental regeneration. Do you believe Old Testament saints were regenerated through the OT sacrament of circumcision or through faith?

I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you. I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” (1 Cor 1:10-12)

He reminds them that all these men are servants of the same Jesus Christ. Jesus is the one who alone grants salvation.

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Cor 1:13)

Then

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning. (1 Cor 1:17)

Paul is not minimizing the importance of Baptism so much as stressing his primary obligationto evangelize. He is aiming his words at those who lost sight of the Sacrament’s purpose which is to unite us with Christ.

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13)

I think we need to consider Romans 6 as the baptism done by the Spirit and not by men. They are two different things according to Paul. Please see the end of Romans 2.
He says not with eloquent wisdom because the power of the gospel to move people comes from the message itself, not the messanger who delivers it.

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

This is an unfolding process and the final verdict of God’s judment is still open. In other words there is still hope for those who are perishing and still dangers for those being saved.

---

Paul makes a distinction between hearing and receiving the gospel as the power of being united to Christ as compared to water baptism. Even John the Baptist who announced the coming of the Lord makes a clear distinction between baptized in the Spirit from water baptism.

 

[Reformed]

Paul makes a distinction between hearing and receiving the gospel as the power of being united to Christ as compared to water baptism. Even John the Baptist who announced the coming of the Lord makes a clear distinction between baptized in the Spirit from water baptism.

Luke 3:16

John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Alive in Christ
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits [1] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities [2] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. [3] - Col

Rom 2
25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded [2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code [3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Romans 10

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

And back to our Bible Study:

Divisions in the Church
10 I appeal to you, brothers, [1] by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[mikeledes]

What had to happen to Lydia before see received the gospel proclaimed by God? Please notice the order here too.

The Conversion of Lydia

11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the [4] district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us. - Acts 16

Which sinners believed, and what happened first before they were able to believe?

44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, **and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. **49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

• Acts 13

NIV

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed

What happened to Lydia is God enlightening Lydia’s mind and will, enabling her to respond to the Gospel message. However, it is not regeneration.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

**Nice try Michael,

But mongerism rules and synergism drools**.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images/DroolDoguedeBordeauxDonardrooling.jpg

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

**Made Alive in Christ **

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Ephesians 2

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. - Col 2

Now please read this verse in context. This verse is adressed to whom, to believers or the seven churches? I don’t think Jesus is speaking to the unbeliever in this particular verse, do you?

Revelation 3:20

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

And when does Scripture say man is made alive? Is it prior to hearing or after hearing?

John 5:25

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

It is the dead that hear the voice of Christ and after hearing they live. They are made alive after hearing.

The typical passage to defend regeneration prior to faith is:

Ezekiel 36:25-26

**25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. **

Calvinists identify “new heart and new spirit” with regeneration. However, God indcates that the reception of a new heart and a new spirit occurs after repentance:

Ezekiel 18:31

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

What happened to Lydia is God enlightening Lydia’s mind and will, enabling her to respond to the Gospel message. However, it is not regeneration.

God Bless,
Michael

Do you think God enlightens all individuals minds and wills in the same way He did to Lydia’s mind and will?