Reading Scripture together as Christians

[Reformed]

You are saying Christians didn’t instruct converts before baptizing them?

Acts 16: Did Lydia and the jailer wait a year before baptism?

The Scripture exposes two problems with the Roman Catholic practice and position. First, Lyida and the jailer believed in the gospel are were saved. Then, they were immediately baptized (household baptism) after their conversion, regeneration, reconcilation, union with Christ, adoption. Out of evidence of their conversion, they were able to obey the command to be baptized because God the Holy Spirit took residence in them. Please look the order of the events. And how can you take these two conversions and wait 1 year of RICA classes before baptizing a believer in Christ, especially if you believe in baptismal regeneration? Do we believe the Roman Catholic Magestrieum or do we beleive the testimony of divine revelaiton from God (Holy Scripture) for the Christian Faith and practice on the Christian life? I understand why Catholic poster state that salvation comes through the Catholic Church. The Cathooic Church decides when to give a sinner the new life in Christ by witholding baptism. That is why I believe salvation is of the Lord, and not be men from a religious institution. Here is the Scriptures again in context:

Acts 16

Timothy Joins Paul and Silas
16:1 Paul [1] came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brothers [2] at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4 As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions that had been reached by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem. 5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily.

The Macedonian Call
6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. 8 So, passing by Mysia, they went down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 And when Paul [3] had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

The Conversion of Lydia
11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the [4] district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

Paul and Silas in Prison
16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and us, crying out, “These men are servants [5] of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.” 18 And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.

19 But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers. 20 And when they had brought them to the magistrates, they said, “These men are Jews, and they are disturbing our city. 21 They advocate customs that are not lawful for us as Romans to accept or practice.” 22 The crowd joined in attacking them, and the magistrates tore the garments off them and gave orders to beat them with rods. 23 And when they had inflicted many blows upon them, they threw them into prison, ordering the jailer to keep them safely. 24 Having received this order, he put them into the inner prison and fastened their feet in the stocks.

.

 

[Reformed]

The Philippian Jailer Converted
25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer [6] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

35 But when it was day, the magistrates sent the police, saying, “Let those men go.” 36 And the jailer reported these words to Paul, saying, “The magistrates have sent to let you go. Therefore come out now and go in peace.” 37 But Paul said to them, “They have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men who are Roman citizens, and have thrown us into prison; and do they now throw us out secretly? No! Let them come themselves and take us out.” 38 The police reported these words to the magistrates, and they were afraid when they heard that they were Roman citizens. 39 So they came and apologized to them. And they took them out and asked them to leave the city. 40 So they went out of the prison and visited Lydia. And when they had seen the brothers, they encouraged them and departed

 

[cfrancis]

Baptismal regeneration is the offiical Roman Catholic belief. But when you study the conversions found in the book of Acts, the pattern is quite different. Here is the bibilical testimony: The Apostle will proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to a crowd or individual. God the Holy Spirit quickens the elect to be able to spirituality hear the gospel, receive it, and believe the great good news of God for reconcilation to God, peace with God, adoption and becomes a child of God prior to partaking in water baptism. Thereafter, the converts immediately are baptized with water after convresion. Have you ever struggled with Acts 13:48 in regards to who are able to believe the gospel for conversion?

I understand your Protestant reading of Scripture, whereby you must place the un-Scriptural qualifier “becomes a child of God prior to partaking in water baptism” into your analysis; it’s the only you can make your Protestant theology coherent.

Acts 13:46-50

46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.

Please notice that in the 13 Epistles of the Apostle Paul, water bapitsm in not even part of the gospel proclamation.

Acts 13 is not a struggle for us; is it for you? Many of the Gentiles believed, and, according to the consistent message of the NT, they were baptized as Christ and the Apostles commanded. This account in Acts 13 is similar to Peter in Acts 2:
37 Now when [the gathered crowd] heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
The crowd to which Paul preached believed, just as the crowd to which Peter preached believed.

Rom 10 is most appropriate, and part of Catholic teaching:
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
How does one obey the gospel? Peter speaks it well:
Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
After all, Christ speaks to the hearts of men; it is His voice Lydia, the jailer, the Gentiles in Acts 13, the Jews and Gentiles in Acts 2. And as in each of those occasions, not every one to whom Christ spoke believed.

 

[cfrancis]

In an attempt to provide credibilty to your Protestant viewpoint, you’ve reduced the argument to one of time: 1 year.
I suppose you must do so, based on the fragility of your position.
You point to the conversion stories we’ve provided, with the un-Scriptural qualifier (again, necessary for your Protestant theology to remain coherent), “First, Lyida and the jailer believed in the gospel are were saved. Then, they were immediately baptized (household baptism) after their conversion, regeneration, reconcilation, union with Christ, adoption”

Let’s look again:
Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
There is no break, no qualifier, no distinction between believing, being baptized, conversion, etc… as you have attemtped to present.

Acts 16
11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis,
12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the [4] district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days.
13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.
14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
Again, there is no break, no qualifier, no distinction between believing, being baptized, conversion, etc… as you have attemtped to present.

The same with the jailer in Acts 16:
30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
Again, there is no break, no qualifier, no distinction between believing, being baptized, conversion, etc… as you have attemtped to present. Also note, believing in the Lord Jesus means believing all He said, including Jn 3:
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Which is exactly what the jailer and his household did.

That is why I believe salvation is of the Lord, and not be men from a religious institution.

I suppose you are accustomed to having your logical fallacy (in this case, a false dilemma) overlooked in your Protestant circles.

 

[ryanoneil]

Baptismal regeneration is the offiical Roman Catholic belief. But when you study the conversions found in the book of Acts, the pattern is quite different. Here is the bibilical testimony: The Apostle will proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to a crowd or individual. God the Holy Spirit quickens the elect to be able to spirituality hear the gospel, receive it, and believe the great good news of God for reconcilation to God, peace with God, adoption and becomes a child of God prior to partaking in water baptism. Thereafter, the converts immediately are baptized with water after convresion.

The Bible says nothing about whether or not the members of Lydia’s household believed, or even heard the Gospel, prior to their baptism. All that we read is that the head of a household made a decision for Christ, and that as a result of that decision, she and her household were baptized. To say otherwise is to add to the Bible.

What about **Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16) **?

This passage doesn’t even come close to saying that believers alone are the subjects of baptism. It clearly admits the possibility of those who are baptized and not yet believers.

Please notice that in the 13 Epistles of the Apostle Paul, water bapitsm in not even part of the gospel proclamation.

Rom. 6:4; 1 Cor. 1:16, 6:11; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12; Titus 3:5-7; Eph. 4:5

 

[Reformed]

The Bible says nothing about whether or not the members of Lydia’s household believed, or even heard the Gospel, prior to their baptism. All that we read is that the head of a household made a decision for Christ, and that as a result of that decision, she and her household were baptized. To say otherwise is to add to the Bible.

What about **Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16) **?

This passage doesn’t even come close to saying that believers alone are the subjects of baptism. It clearly admits the possibility of those who are baptized and not yet believers.

Rom. 6:4; 1 Cor. 1:16, 6:11; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12; Titus 3:5-7; Eph. 4:5

Do you mind going to the gospeoof John study on chapter 3 (Jesus Christ - Bible Study).

 

[ryanoneil]

Do you mind going to the gospeoof John study on chapter 3 (Jesus Christ - Bible Study).

I have. I will not bring up baptism again (here) until it comes up in scripture.

 

[Reformed]

Good question. I was a sponsor for two people last year who were already baptized. However, there were others who were not and they waited until Easter Vigil Mass to be baptized.
I thought the delay was unnecessary and dangerous since regeneration does begin at baptism.

Please don’t jump all over me because I see a big problem with waiting one year to be baptized. I see a huge theological problem with this practice. But as you can see above, Roman Catholic Christians struggle too with this same practice and issue. I will move on… with the Bible Study.

 

[ryanoneil]

When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. (1 Cor 2:1)

Paul first evangelized Corinth in

(Acts 18:1-17)

 

[guanophore]

"Reformed:

That is why I believe salvation is of the Lord, and not be men from a religious institution.

It is very Catholic of you to day this!

Do you mind going to the gospeoof John study on chapter 3 (Jesus Christ - Bible Study).

I can see why you would be so anxious to move on. I think it has been made abundantly clear to you that the teaching of Jesus in Jn. 3 on baptism(being born from above by water and spirit) significantly differs from what you have been taught.

 

[Reformed]

When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. (1 Cor 2:1)

Paul first evangelized Corinth in

(Acts 18:1-17)

Acts 18 - NAB

When Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began to occupy himself totally with preaching the word, testifying to the Jews that the Messiah was Jesus.
6
When they opposed him and reviled him, he shook out his garments 2 and said to them, “Your blood be on your heads! I am clear of responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”
7
So he left there and went to a house belonging to a man named Titus Justus, a worshiper of God; 3 his house was next to a synagogue.
8
Crispus, 4 the synagogue official, came to believe in the Lord along with his entire household, and many of the Corinthians who heard believed and were baptized.

What came first, believing or water baptism? The Scriptures testify that belief (faith, trust) comes before water baptism. Regeneration is the new brith which you receive the Spirit to give a dead sinner spiritual eyes to see Jesus as the Christ. Why were many of the Corinithians able to believe before water baptism if baptismal regeneration is true? :

Here is another pattern: He vigorously refuted the Jews in public, establishing from the scriptures that the Messiah is Jesus

 

[Mickey]

I can see why you would be so anxious to move on. I think it has been made abundantly clear to you that the teaching of Jesus in Jn. 3 on baptism(being born from above by water and spirit) significantly differs from what you have been taught.

Yeah. Wait till he gets to John 6!

 

[ryanoneil]

I came to you in weakness and fear and much trembling (1 Cor 2:3)

Fear and trembling is a biblical expression for one’s reaction to the power and presence of God.

**When the people witnessed the thunder and lightning, the trumpet blast and the mountain smoking, they all feared and trembled. So they took up a position much farther away (Ex 20:18)

Serve the LORD with fear; with trembling bow down in homage, Lest God be angry and you perish from the way in a sudden blaze of anger. Happy are all who take refuge in God! (Ps 2:11)

Son of man, eat your bread trembling, and drink your water shaking with anxiety. (Ezek 12:18)

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil 2:12)**

 

[Reformed]

Yeah. Wait till he gets to John 6!

Ohh… John 6 will give you great difficulties with your presuppositions.

 

[Mickey]

Ohh… John 6 will give you great difficulties with your presuppositions.

LOL!

I remain prayerful that the good Catholics here will be able to present the apostolic teaching to you, so that you may finally be able to open your eyes and your ears.

 

[ryanoneil]

What came first, believing or water baptism? The Scriptures testify that belief (faith, trust) comes before water baptism.

Sometimes one and sometimes the other. The descriptions of the baptisms of groups of people in Acts suggest that personal and individual belief did not inevitably precede baptism, especially in those cases where the head of the household decided upon and professed the Christian faith on behalf of his or her entire household?

Regeneration is the new brith which you receive the Spirit to give a dead sinner spiritual eyes to see Jesus as the Christ. Why were many of the Corinithians able to believe before water baptism if baptismal regeneration is true? :

Regeneration and prevenient grace are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[AshleyBelle]

I just stumbled across this thread, and when I first saw the idea, I thought it really looked interesting…

But it’s left me with a question…

Can real, true, Bible study exist between catholics and protestants? Protestants don’t want to “believe” what our history and tradition has revealed about scripture, and Catholics cannot as a matter of faith, adhere to the “sure I know what your church says about it…but how does it SPEAK to YOU personally” idea…

It seems like a terribel dilemma… I’ve been trying in my head to understand the things that we SHARE with our protestant brothers and sisters in Christ… Our faith in the innerent Word of God through the Bible being one of those such things…

But the more I contemplate on the issue…the more I tend to feel, that protestantism has drifted so far from the true church, that even our shared faith in the Bible, is not truly shared

We know that “the gates of the netherworld” will never be able to prevail against the church, founded by our Lord Jesus. But I have to say… the devil has certainly done a dandy job of pulling people away from the security Christ provided for truth, and splintering them into theological obscurity and division

OP… I like the idea for your thread! But did you not realize, that by asking us to search the Bible together, you would be recieving the catholic interpretation? One that we believe to be not only our own understanding of these sacred passages…but GOD’s REVEALED understanding?

Since joining the church, (and correct me if I’m misunderstanding this) but it seems to me, that not only do we believe God gave us his word in the Bible… but that he CONTINUES to reveal the truths and meaning of his word through the years, within his church? Not that he left us the Bible and said “here you go, now tell me what YOU think I’m saying!”

added

Furthermore, is there anywhere in scripture that this practice is condoned? I’m asking this in all sincerity… I understand that God wants us to read, study, and learn about the Bible… But does God ever ask us to come to our own conclusions about the Bible?

 

[Reformed]

I came to you in weakness and fear and much trembling (1 Cor 2:3)

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil 2:12)

This is a staple for the Roman Catholic Christian. Phil 2:12 is always posted without Phil 2:13. It seems to me that Catholics want to leave out God in the process of transformation.

Philippians 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

[Reformed]

Sometimes one and sometimes the other. The descriptions of the baptisms of groups of people in Acts suggest that personal and individual belief did not inevitably precede baptism, especially in those cases where the head of the household decided upon and professed the Christian faith on behalf of his or her entire household?

Regeneration and prevenient grace are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Do you believe that a person needs to partake in water baptism to be born from above?

 

[Reformed]

I just stumbled across this thread, and when I first saw the idea, I thought it really looked interesting…

But it’s left me with a question…

Can real, true, Bible study exist between catholics and protestants? Protestants don’t want to “believe” what our history and tradition has revealed about scripture, and Catholics cannot as a matter of faith, adhere to the “sure I know what your church says about it…but how does it SPEAK to YOU personally” idea…

It seems like a terribel dilemma… I’ve been trying in my head to understand the things that we SHARE with our protestant brothers and sisters in Christ… Our faith in the innerent Word of God through the Bible being one of those such things…

But the more I contemplate on the issue…the more I tend to feel, that protestantism has drifted so far from the true church, that even our shared faith in the Bible, is not truly shared

We know that “the gates of the netherworld” will never be able to prevail against the church, founded by our Lord Jesus. But I have to say… the devil has certainly done a dandy job of pulling people away from the security Christ provided for truth, and splintering them into theological obscurity and division

OP… I like the idea for your thread! But did you not realize, that by asking us to search the Bible together, you would be recieving the catholic interpretation? One that we believe to be not only our own understanding of these sacred passages…but GOD’s REVEALED understanding?

Since joining the church, (and correct me if I’m misunderstanding this) but it seems to me, that not only do we believe God gave us his word in the Bible… but that he CONTINUES to reveal the truths and meaning of his word through the years, within his church? Not that he left us the Bible and said “here you go, now tell me what YOU think I’m saying!”

Thanks for sharing your beliefs and joining us on this thread. I hope you stick around. The Catholic Faith teaches that you have two sources of revelation: Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. I have started a thread called Sacred Oral and Written Tradition, requesting access to the deposit of faith of Sacred Tradition. You will be surprised that Catholic theoligians debate within themselves (in-house) to what consists of the contents of Sacred Tradition. That’s a scary thing, considering the implications of continuing revelation. How do you know what to believe if Catholics don’t even know the deposit of faith of Sacred Tradition?