Reading Scripture together as Christians

[AshleyBelle]

Thank you for your thoughtful response, guanophore

I think you have to understand that not all Christians see the Roman Catholic Church as being the church in the Bible. Within Christianity, the three major divisions include Roman Catholicism, Orthodox, and Protestantism. When you come across the word church in the Bible, Orthodox and Protestants do not intereprt church as being the Roman Catholic Church. The church is catholic meaning universal. Please don’t confuse the word catholic with Roman Catholic because they are not the same thing. The true universal catholic church is made up of all those who are united to Christ in-spite of our religious denominiations.

As to this… Do you not see the conundrum?
Reformers and Orthodox do not view the Roman Catholic church as the one true church from the Bible. But they’ve taken it upon themselves to reach this conclusion, based on their own interpretations and conclusions, seperating from the original church, the catholic church, the only one which claims to be the one true church of the bible…

So…where does the bible support this claim to personal interpretaion and conclusions, one of which being that “the one true church is more a universal term and not the catholic church” which is of itself an personal interperative claim???

Does that make sense?

 

[ryanoneil]

Let me understand your belief.

Some sinners are born from above (regeneration) through baptismal regenation.

Some sinners are born from above by hearing the gospel, receiving and believing the great good news of God (by faith).

Is my understanding correct of official Roman Catholic teaching?

That is just the tip of the iceberg. Here is a small sample.

CCC:

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1259

 

[Reformed]

Welcome to the thread.

But it’s left me with a question…

I agree with your first point, but only partly with the second. Catholics are encourage to allow scripture to speak to them personally. We just need to be sure that we do not depart from the Sacred Tradition that produced the scripture.

I think we can share discussion, but you are right, since we are looking through incompatible lenses,what we can accomplish is limited.

Satan surely does know which Church to attack.

I am not sure about this at all. Reformed has made it clear that he does not believe Catholics read or understand the Bible. I think he expected that, if we read it with him, we would be converted to the Reformed theology.

The Catholic Church teaches that there is One Source of Revelation, Jesus Himself. He expressed HImself through the Teaching of the Apostles (Sacred Tradition), the Holy Scripture, an the authority He appointed to guide HIs Church. The whole revelation was complete and entire, deposited “once for all” to the saints. We believe no new public revelation occurred after the death of the last Apostle. What develops is our understanding of the doctrines.

No, on the contrary, we are to receive the Apostolic teaching as new born babes, and the reading of Scripture is never separated from the Apostolic Tradition that produced it.



Reformed finds it scary because he knows that his faith community does not enjoy this protection.

I think it is more accurate to say One Source (Christ) expressing itself in three “strands”. None stand without the others.

L

Another misrepresentation from a Catholic Christian. I never said that you need to be Reformed to be a converted Christian or anything like that. We all know in part and the true catholic church consists of Christians united to Christ in-spite of our religious memberships and religious denominations. Being Reformed in theology does not mean that you are born from above. The same is true about being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Being baptized, finishing a RICA course, partaking in all of the Roman Catholic sacraments does not mean you are actually converted and born from above.

 

[Mickey]

Within Christianity, the three major divisions include Roman Catholicism, Orthodox, and Protestantism.

Catholics and Orthodox are Apostolic Churches with Apostolic succession and valid sacraments–human weakness caused a schism–they will reunite in time.

The protestants must return to Apostolic Christianity.

 

[Reformed]

That is just the tip of the iceberg. Here is a small sample.

Originally Posted by CCC
VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1259

Thank you so much Ryan! Let’s move on… shall we.

 

[Reformed]

Catholics and Orthodox are Apostolic Churches with Apostolic succession and valid sacraments–human weakness caused a schism–they will reunite in time.

The protestants must return to Apostolic Christianity.

When or if the Catholics and Orthodox unite, who’s Sacred Tradition will be authorative over the other deposit of Sacred Tradtion? And, who wll be the real “One True Church” the East or the West? I don’t think the East has a Pope, do you?

 

[Mickey]

who’s Sacred Tradition will be authorative

Both Churches share the same Sacred Tradition—and don’t you worry about the details of reunion–the Holy Spirit will work it out.

Now…would you like to start a thread about the Apostolic Churches of East and West—or are you thinking of continuing the Bible study?

 

[Reformed]

Both Churches share the same Sacred Tradition—and don’t you worry about the details of reunion–the Holy Spirit will work it out.

Now…would you like to start a thread about the Apostolic Churches of East and West—or are you thinking of continuing the Bible study?

That’s such an untrue statement. How do you interpert Matthew 16 in regards to apostolic succession? Even Catholics do not know what consists of the actual deposit of faith of Roman Catholic Sacred Traditiion. Therefore, you being Orthodox, how do you know what consists of the actual contents and deposit of Faith of Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition. How about providing me a link to the complete deposit of faith of Orthodox Sacred Tradition?

 

[Mickey]

How about providing me a link to the complete deposit of faith of Orthodox Sacred Tradition?

Start a thread and I will attempt to enlighten your prejudiced mind. You have begun a Bible study here–and now you are asking questions about the Sacred Tradition of the Eastern/Western Apostolic Churches.

Start an independent thread if you are so concerned about the Apostolic Churches. Do you understand?

 

[AshleyBelle]

That’s such an untrue statement. How do you interpert Matthew 16 in regards to apostolic succession? Even Catholics do not know what consists of the actual deposit of faith of Roman Catholic Sacred Traditiion. Therefore, you being Orthodox, how do you know what consists of the actual contents and deposit of Faith of Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition. How about providing me a link to the complete deposit of faith of Orthodox Sacred Tradition?

???

 

[ryanoneil]

Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away. (1 Cor 2:6)

Paul differentiates between Christians who have reached spiritual adulthood and those who are merely “infants.” The immature Corinthians are the ones who consider themselves the more wise and spiritually advanced

Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ. (1 Cor 3:1)

They possess the Spirit but are enslaved to worldly ways of thinking. We know that part of the context is bickering over who baptized them, but more importantly is the spiritual growth of the community.

**I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now, for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way? Whenever someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apollos,” are you not merely human? (1 Cor 3:2-4) **

Paul goes on to stress that success in ministry is primarily the work of God. God alone gives life and growth to the Church. The faithful must not overestimate the importance of their teachers but see them as "servants and “fellow workers” of the Lord.

**What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord assigned each one. (1 Cor 3:5)

For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. (1 Cor 3:9)**

 

[Reformed]

Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away. (1 Cor 2:6)

Paul differentiates between Christians who have reached spiritual adulthood and those who are merely “infants.” The immature Corinthians are the ones who consider themselves the more wise and spiritually advanced

Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ. (1 Cor 3:1)

They possess the Spirit but are enslaved to worldly ways of thinking. We know that part of the context is bickering over who baptized them, but more importantly is the spiritual growth of the community.

**I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now, for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way? Whenever someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apollos,” are you not merely human? (1 Cor 3:2-4) **

Paul goes on to stress that success in ministry is primarily the work of God. God alone gives life and growth to the Church. The faithful must not overestimate the importance of their teachers but see them as "servants and “fellow workers” of the Lord.

**What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord assigned each one. (1 Cor 3:5)

For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. (1 Cor 3:9)**

Thanks Ryan for your comments to the Scriptures. I agree with them. Let’s continue please.

 

[ryanoneil]

**Rather, we speak God’s wisdom, mysterious, hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory, and which none of the rulers of this age knew; for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.(1 Cor 2:7-8) **

The divine plan to save the world through a crucified Messiah that was once concealed from the Gentiles and reflected in the OT. The Jewish and Roman authorities where ignorant of God’s plan to redeem the world through Jesus’ death, but they were still responsible for their crime.

 

[Reformed]

**Rather, we speak God’s wisdom, mysterious, hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory, and which none of the rulers of this age knew; for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.(1 Cor 2:7-8) **

The divine plan to save the world through a crucified Messiah that was once concealed from the Gentiles and reflected in the OT. The Jewish and Roman authorities where ignorant of God’s plan to redeem the world through Jesus’ death, but they were still responsible for their crime.

Are these your personal comments or are you posting comments from an outside source?

 

[ryanoneil]

A little of both. Ignatious study bible.

 

[ryanoneil]

The CCC has something to say about this as well. And it is loaded full of stuff we’ve been talking about

591 Jesus asked the religious authorities of Jerusalem to believe in him because of the Father’s works which he accomplished. But such an act of faith must go through a mysterious death to self, for a new “birth from above” under the influence of divine grace. Such a demand for conversion in the face of so surprising a fulfillment of the promises allows one to understand the Sanhedrin’s tragic misunderstanding of Jesus: they judged that he deserved the death sentence as a blasphemer. The members of the Sanhedrin were thus acting at the same time out of “ignorance” and the “hardness” of their “unbelief”.

597 The historical complexity of Jesus’ trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles’ calls to conversion after Pentecost. Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept “the ignorance” of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders. Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd’s cry: “His blood be on us and on our children!”, a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence. As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.

 

[Reformed]

A little of both. Ignatious study bible.

I think it is very important to quote your sources. I even think that is the Catholic Forum rules too. My goal to work through all 13 Epistles of Paul. We should just post a chapter or two at at time and make personal comments about the text. We can use other Scriptures, and other documented sources to support our personal comments. Do you seem to agree?

 

[ryanoneil]

I think it is very important to quote your sources. I even think that is the Catholic Forum rules too. My goal to work through all 13 Epistles of Paul. We should just post a chapter or two at at time and make personal comments about the text. We can use other Scriptures, and other documented sources to support our personal comments. Do you seem to agree?

That is fine. I apologize for getting lazy sometimes.

 

[ryanoneil]

1 Corinthians
Chapter 3
1
1 2 Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ.
2
I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now,
3
for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you, 3 are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way?
4
Whenever someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apollos,” are you not merely human?
5
4 5 What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord assigned each one.
6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth.
7
Therefore, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who causes the growth.
8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
9
For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10
6 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it,
11
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13
the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
14
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.
16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17
If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy. 9
18
Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you considers himself wise in this age, let him become a fool so as to become wise.
19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own ruses,”
20
and again: “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.”
21
10 So let no one boast about human beings, for everything belongs to you,
22
Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or the present or the future: all belong to you,
23
and you to Christ, and Christ to God.

 

[Reformed]

1 Corinthians
Chapter 3
1
1 2 Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ.
2
I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now,
3
for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you, 3 are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way?
4
Whenever someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apollos,” are you not merely human?
5
4 5 What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord assigned each one.
6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth.
7
Therefore, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who causes the growth.
8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
9
For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10
6 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it,
11
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13
the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
14
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.
16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17
If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy. 9
18
Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you considers himself wise in this age, let him become a fool so as to become wise.
19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own ruses,”
20
and again: “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.”
21
10 So let no one boast about human beings, for everything belongs to you,
22
Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or the present or the future: all belong to you,
23
and you to Christ, and Christ to God.

Are we saved by the righteousness of Christ alone as compared to personal good works done in Christ?

15
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.