Reading Scripture together as Christians

[guanophore]

As I mentioned on an earlier post. Protestants are catholics. Roman Catholics are catholics. And Orthodox are catholics too. Therefore, when we speak of catholics who happen to worship corporately as Roman Catholics, I need to make the distinction between Roman Catholic catholics and Protestant catholics. Did I loose anyone?

I understand what you are saying, it is just misleading. There are 23 Rites in the Catholic Church. We are all in unity with the successor of Peter, but we do not worship corporately as the “Romans” do, because we have different liturgies, languages, and customs. It would be more proper to refer to us as Catholic. While I object to your use of the term applies to those not in unity with the Apostolic teaching, I guess you can call yourself whatever you want, whether it makes any sense or not.

I just listened to a news program about getting gay marriage approved in another State. I believe marriage is a sacrament that happens between one man, and one woman. However, I cannot stop them from calling what they are doing “marriage”, even if I disagree with them, or it makes no logical or spiritual sense to me.

The same is the case when you apply the word "catholic’ to yourself.

The true church of God, those who are eternally united to Christ are catholic which is made-up of redeemed sinners from various Christian communities.

The Body of Christ is One, and I agree, does include those who are attached to the Head. They are not necessarily eternally united, though, and the Church is much larger than the present day believers.

I think you undermine Protestant’s claim to be catholic.

There is nothing to undermine. There is no basis for such a “claim”. No one has a “claim” on God, or his Holy Bride. We are privileged by the free gift of grace to be built into His building. It is not a right, but a reflection of His mercy.

What makes you more catholic than Protestants that have been redeemed, reconciled, and adopted into the family of God through the person and work of Christ alone? Did Jesus die only for Roman Catholics and Orthodox sinners?

The word Catholic is used to describe “the Church throughout”. It refers to a people everywhere who hold the same faith (doctrine) and practice. Protestants, by virtue of their being such, rejected being defined by this word.

I don’t think Roman Catholic theology believes in universalism. At the end of the day, Reformed theology and Roman Catholic theology teaches particular (limited) atonement. [/quot]

No. Catholic theology is not Roman.

Here is Catholic Teaching"

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:1-2
Reformed;4337568:

It is just understood differently. Actually, some of the works of Augustine influenced the Protestant Reformers on the doctrine of election and predestination. The Roman Catholic Church allows a very diverse view within Roman Catholics on the subject of predestination. If Christ came to save the entire world, why did He fail in His apparent mission to save the entire world. Surely, God knew the results prior to the incarnation.

He did not “fail”. In His sovereign will, He ordained that humans wouls have the opportunity to reject His sacrifice.

 

[Reformed]

The word Catholic is used to describe “the Church throughout”. It refers to a people everywhere who hold the same faith (doctrine) and practice. Protestants, by virtue of their being such, rejected being defined by this word.
Reformed;4337568:

I don’t think Roman Catholic theology believes in universalism. At the end of the day, Reformed theology and Roman Catholic theology teaches particular (limited) atonement. [/quot]

No. Catholic theology is not Roman.

Here is Catholic Teaching"

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world

." 1 John 2:1-2

He did not “fail”. In His sovereign will, He ordained that humans wouls have the opportunity to reject His sacrifice.

 

[Reformed]

I understand what you are saying, it is just misleading. There are 23 Rites in the Catholic Church. We are all in unity with the successor of Peter, but we do not worship corporately as the “Romans” do, because we have different liturgies, languages, and customs. It would be more proper to refer to us as Catholic. While I object to your use of the term applies to those not in unity with the Apostolic teaching, I guess you can call yourself whatever you want, whether it makes any sense or not.

I just listened to a news program about getting gay marriage approved in another State. I believe marriage is a sacrament that happens between one man, and one woman. However, I cannot stop them from calling what they are doing “marriage”, even if I disagree with them, or it makes no logical or spiritual sense to me.

." 1 John 2:1-2

He did not “fail”. In His sovereign will, He ordained that humans wouls have the opportunity to reject His sacrifice.

Okay, bibilcal words have biblical meaning and definitions. Since you brought up 1 John 2:1-2, what is your definiton of atonenment and propitatiion?

1 John 2:1-2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

[/QUOTE]

 

[guanophore]

Okay, bibilcal words have biblical meaning and definitions. Since you brought up 1 John 2:1-2, what is your definiton of atonenment and propitatiion?

You may have assigned such"definitions" to them, but for those of Apostolic faith, the words of scripture have Apostolic meaning and definition. That is why the “defintions” formulated by those separated from the teaching of the Apostles differ so much from those who have embraced the Apostolic Teaching.

I posted this for you previously, but I will do so again, especially for the other readers. The concept of atonment is prefigured in the OT. We do not understand the sacrifice of the Holy Lamb of God apart from the Passover, where the blood of the lamb spared God’s people from death.

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

" But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. " Rom 3:21-26

1 John 2:1-2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

On the word “proptiation” I would say it is the atoning sacrifice of Christ for our sins:

Rom 3:22-26
For there is no distinction, 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; 24 they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus."

I hope this will help you to understand that you have been wrongly taught about what Catholics believe about salvation.

 

[Ronald_E]

Please pray and read the biblical passage again. The disciples asked Jesus the exact question of “why do you speak in parables?” Jesus answered and His answer is recorded in the Scriptures. I think we all need to pray and ask God the Holy Spirit to illuminate the Word of God before we try to interpret and understand the Word of God. We cannot read Scriptures on our own through our flesh and expect to understand it correctly. It is the ministry of God the Holy Spirit to illuminate spiritual truths to our minds and hearts through the Holy Scriptures according to God’s pleasure, God’s timing, and God’s way. All spiritual truths are concealed until God decides when and if He reveals these truths to us. We are all dependent on God for spiritual growth and understanding. It is by the grace of God alone to we are able to progressively grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ…to the praise of His glorious grace.

There is no way I would be in my Catholic faith without the Holy Spirit. God is Love must be the starting, middle and ending point in reading and praying scripture.
It is spiritual narcissism to tell me to pray and then read again because you assume I do not do that.
God’s Word begins with the act of creation.
Our Lord’s human beginning is with the action of Mary’s union with the Holy Spirit. Mary’s solo journey on a dangerous road to bring the Lord to Elizabeth is an action.
John’s mystical vision in the womb is the action of the Holy Spirit enabling John to see what eyes cannot see.
Faith is not the hearing the Word of God. Faith is seeing the Word of God through the gift of grace from the Holy Spirit.
God does not want praise. God wants our actions through His Grace to reveal that He is Love.
Mary’s silence speaks infinitely louder than Paul’s writings. It was only when Paul was blind and helpless that he was able to see. He had to suffer the loss of his sight in order to see. He could not read. He had to be helpless and open to see God’s Word.
Our Lord showed us through His silence during the act of baptism how we are introduced into the life of God. The Spirit of life cannot be seen with human eyes.
I have told you how the Spirit shows God’s Word to me beginning with God is Love.
Love is not a word. Love is an action at every moment, if we choose.

 

[Reformed]

Back to the Bible Study. Please share and comment on

1 Corinthians 3-4

Divisions in the Church
3:1 But I, brothers, [1] could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you [2] are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

The Ministry of Apostles
4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, [3] that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. 7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you! 9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute. 11 To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, 12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; 13 when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.

14 I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me. 17 That is why I sent [4] you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, [5] as I teach them everywhere in every church. 18 Some are arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people but their power. 20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power. 21 What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?

 

[Ronald_E]

I would love to focus on 3:1-4.
My study for 30 years has been a blessing in understanding what is the flesh and what isn’t.
I am interested in your understanding of these verses.

 

[guanophore]

My creditibility is meaningless on this fourm site.

This much is obvious.

I am not a man pleaser.

Clearly not. You even seem to be lacking some of the most basic social graces, such as courtesy.

I don’t think you can make an accurate distinction between tradition and Sacred Tradition because you probably are unable to know the difference.

One example of this lack of courtesy is the condescending tone in so many of your comments.

For the record, persons of Apostolic faith do not find it necessary to make “distinction” between the two strands of the divine deposit of faith the Sacred Scripture, and the Sacred Tradition. They are inseparably entwined, as they were created to be. The Tradition produced the Scripture, and is informed and guided by it.

The doctrine of Sacred Tradition is a man made idea to convince the laity to believe everything that Rome tells you to believe.

Such a formulation would require an explanation as to how it is that all the Apostolic communities have recieved this doctrine, and practice by it, incuding those that are not in communion with Rome. If you cannot show this, then your premise is false.

Sacred Tradition is not “Roman”, nor does it emanate from “Rome”.

It is not good enough to say it’s true because Rome tells you that it is true.

I agree. It was this thinking that was a basis for my leaving the Catholic Church as a teenager, and sojourning in Protestant communities for 20 some years. After three years in Seminary, I learned enough to know that what the Catholic Church was teaching was accurate, regardless of whether that teaching came from Alexandria, Constantinople, or Rome.

Trust in God through His Holy Scriptures. Faith is based on biblical revelation and not sources that cannot be supplied when requested.

I agree that faith is based on the Revelation of God of Himself, found also in Holy Scriptures. However, you are wrong that Sacred Tradition is a “source that cannot be supplied when requested”. The problem with the supply line here is the nature of the request. Those who receive sacred tradition must do so with a humble and receptive heart. Tradition is “passed down” (paradosis) to the faithful. The arrogant and condescending person demanding that it be “produced on request” is not likely to be able to apprehend it, because the attitude of the heart is not receptive.

1 Peter 2:1-3
2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure, spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow into salvation — 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

 

[ryanoneil]

I think the verse that we are discussing is revealing that will be judged for rewards, but not for our salvation since Christ already merited our salvation by His perfect life, and also paid the price for all our sins at Calvary. I think the unbeliever will be judged for their sins and not for personal rewards since they are not in Christ. For the unbeliever, all of their righteous acts are like filty rags according to divine revelation.

The reward is salvation. What do you mean by rewards?

I don’t know where Jesus teaches what you are saying. He always focuses on faith and good works (done in Grace), not as the basis of more rewards, but to obtain salvation.

Jesus even says **“By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Matt 12:37) **

We all must give an account for our lives to God. We will be judged for our motives and actions. However, for those who are in Christ, we are being judged for rewards because we know that “there is therefore, now no condemnation for those who are in Christ”. God cannot punish those who have been justified through faith in Christ because God already poured out His wrath against sin (justice) on Christ on the cross as our substitute. However, those who remain in Adam and do not obey the gospel of Christ, God will punish them with His righteous and just wrath.

 

[ryanoneil]

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you [2] are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Even though the Temple in Jerusalem was still standing at the time, Paul realized that the Old Covenant Temple had been replaced by the living body of Christ in the New Covenant.

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? (1 Cor 6:19) the body of every individual Christian.

The body of every local Church is a temple in (1 Cor 3:17)

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Eph 2:19-22) The body of the universal Church.

Paul says the careful builders will receive a heavenly reward, (v 14) Careless builders will pass through purging fires on their way to salvation (v 15) and destructive workers will themselves be destroyed. (v 17) This includes those who are holy and fall away.

1 Cor 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

Paul quotes Job 5:13 and Psalm 94:11. The lowly will be lifted up and the proud will fall apart. God will chasten those who tink their wickedness goes unnoticed by the Lord.

 

[Reformed]

The reward is salvation. What do you mean by rewards?
I don’t know where Jesus teaches what you are saying. He always focuses on faith and good works (done in Grace), not as the basis of more rewards, but to obtain salvation.

Jesus even says **“By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Matt 12:37) **

But we have very different ideas about the relationship between justification, eternal security and being in Christ. And why can’t God punish whom He wills? (He is sovereign after all)

How do these verses relate to your idea of a one time justification? What do they say about being in Christ?

**"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? (Mat 7:1-3)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Cor 5:10)

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13)

knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance; be slaves of the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will receive recompense for the wrong he committed, and there is no partiality. (Col 3:24-25) **

Do you believe in final sanctification after death?

This is a good topic to explore. In your first statement that I highlighted in red, it appears you believe salvation is merited and earned by us through our pesonal works done in Christ. I really believe Roman Catholic theology does not understand that Christianity is a works righteousness salvation completely earned and merited by another on our behalf. We are trusting in the work of Christ alone on our behalf as being sufficient for us to enter Heaven, or we are trusting in our own transformation as being our basis, merit, and reason for our final justification before God. If I understand your Catholic theology, you no longer agree in the sola of Christ alone as the basis of your salvation.

Romans 4

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

1 Cor 3

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

John 6

When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

 

[ryanoneil]

Brother Reformed I apologize for asking to many questions at once. I’m not asking you how Catholicism appears to you, because you’ve already told us a million times what “you think” we believe. I think this is a good topic to explore as well but you didn’t address one thing I said. If we are going to have a diolog how about some give and take?

This is a good topic to explore. In your first statement that I highlighted in red, it appears you believe salvation is merited and earned by us through our pesonal works done in Christ. I really believe Roman Catholic theology does not understand that Christianity is a works righteousness salvation completely earned and merited by another on our behalf. We are trusting in the work of Christ alone on our behalf as being sufficient for us to enter Heaven, or we are trusting in our own transformation as being our basis, merit, and reason for our final justification before God. If I understand your Catholic theology, you no longer agree in the sola of Christ alone as the basis of your salvation.

If you would like to know why I think something ask away, but please don’t tell me what I think. If you can rephase that in the form of a question, I’ll do my best to answer it.

I think the verse that we are discussing is revealing that will be judged for rewards, but not for our salvation

What do you mean by rewards?

 

[Ronald_E]

Brother Reformed I apologize for asking to many questions at once. I’m not asking you how Catholicism appears to you, because you’ve already told us a million times what “you think” we believe. I think this is a good topic to explore as well but you didn’t address one thing I said. If we are going to have a diolog how about some give and take?

If you would like to know why I think something ask away, but please don’t tell me what I think. If you can rephase that in the form of a question, I’ll do my best to answer it.

What do you mean by rewards?

Ryan, thank you for your excellent posts. I am not going to participate any longer. This effort distracts me and actually drains me of the energy to work our faith as God intended. You rerpresent the Catholic faith well.
God bless you
God bless Reformed

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryan, thank you for your excellent posts. I am not going to participate any longer. This effort distracts me and actually drains me of the energy to work our faith as God intended. You rerpresent the Catholic faith well.
God bless you
God bless Reformed

I understand your frustration and decision. Internet diolog isn’t easy. I find myself guilty of poor communication all the time (because it is so easy to fall into). I learn alot about my faith tradition and others through this process (as difficult as it is).

Please pray for all of us.

God bless,

Ryan

 

[Reformed]

Brother Reformed I apologize for asking to many questions at once. I’m not asking you how Catholicism appears to you, because you’ve already told us a million times what “you think” we believe. I think this is a good topic to explore as well but you didn’t address one thing I said. If we are going to have a diolog how about some give and take?

If you would like to know why I think something ask away, but please don’t tell me what I think. If you can rephase that in the form of a question, I’ll do my best to answer it.

What do you mean by rewards?

Just a quick answer because I will be working on a big project at work for the next several month. I agree in a sense that salvation, or knowing God as our Heavenly Father is the real reward. God is the gospel in the real sense that our enmity with God has been restored to a relationship with God as our Father. We are adopted into the family of God on the basis of the merits of Christ alone. Therefore, our personal obedience as Christians cannot make us more adopted as we already are. But within the kingdom of God in eternity, there are degrees of reward that the Apostles speak about that is merited as individual Chrstians. Our relationship to God as Father is not merited by us by our obedience as adopted children of God, and a sharp distinction needs to be made between our status with God and personal rewards as children of God. We can explore all of the Scriptures speaking about rewards as Christians on another thread if you want to start it.

 

[Reformed]

Ryan, thank you for your excellent posts. I am not going to participate any longer. This effort distracts me and actually drains me of the energy to work our faith as God intended. You rerpresent the Catholic faith well.
God bless you
God bless Reformed

Thank you for your kind words. I agree that Ryan is well grounded in the Catholic Faith. God’s timing is always perfect. And the Christian life is a marathon instead of a sprint. Please feel free to join us later if you do change your mind. May God continue to pour out His amazing grace on you and your family. Our bold confidence is in God and not ourselves.

 

[East_and_West]

Reformed. I encourage you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You spend a great deal of time telling us what we believe and its nonsense. You need to read and find out. I especially suggest the portions of the Catechims that deal with grace and justification.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

This is a good topic to explore. In your first statement that I highlighted in red, it appears you believe salvation is merited and earned by us through our pesonal works done in Christ. I really believe Roman Catholic theology does not understand that Christianity is a works righteousness salvation completely earned and merited by another on our behalf. We are trusting in the work of Christ alone on our behalf as being sufficient for us to enter Heaven, or we are trusting in our own transformation as being our basis, merit, and reason for our final justification before God. If I understand your Catholic theology, you no longer agree in the sola of Christ alone as the basis of your salvation.

No, you don’t understand Catholic theology, especially since you still insist on sticking “Roman” in front of it more often than not, even after you’ve been told that at least one Catholic on these threads is not Roman Catholic and yet holds to the same Apostolic faith.

Romans 4

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

1 Cor 3

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

John 6

When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

In Catholic theology, believing entails more than just mental assent.

 

[ryanoneil]

Just a quick answer because I will be working on a big project at work for the next several month. I agree in a sense that salvation, or knowing God as our Heavenly Father is the real reward. God is the gospel in the real sense that our enmity with God has been restored to a relationship with God as our Father. We are adopted into the family of God on the basis of the merits of Christ alone. Therefore, our personal obedience as Christians cannot make us more adopted as we already are. But within the kingdom of God in eternity, there are degrees of reward that the Apostles speak about that is merited as individual Chrstians. Our relationship to God as Father is not merited by us by our obedience as adopted children of God, and a sharp distinction needs to be made between our status with God and personal rewards as children of God. We can explore all of the Scriptures speaking about rewards as Christians on another thread if you want to start it.

Thank you for responding.

I know we have different particular ideas (and not knowing all the difference) I generally argree with what you are saying.

Of course, the nature of justification is one issue. Salvation and the loss of it is another. But this is why we are having this conversation.

Good luck on your project.

 

[Reformed]

In Catholic theology, believing entails more than just mental assent.

In Reformed Theology and biblical theology, we completely agree with you (James 2).