Reading Scripture together as Christians

[mikeledes]

I would like the opportunity to go through the Epistles of Paul together with others. We will go through an entire book one chapter at a time. You can post whatever comment that you have related to the chapter. But let’s try to keep our comments within the contents of the chapter posted. Let’s please give it a try:

Philippians 1

Greeting

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanksgiving and Prayer

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

The Advance of the Gospel

I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel, so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard and to all the rest that my imprisonment is for Christ. And most of the brothers, having become confident in the Lord by my imprisonment, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.

To Live Is Christ

Yes, and I will rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.

Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

I just want to make a general statement about this chapter first. The Phillipians enjoy a special place in Paul’s heart as already indicated in this chapter and will be stated in the following chapters. He even expressing confidence that through their prayers he will be delivered. The Philipians have a persevering faith and love as demonstrated by their great love for the gospel since day one and their solidarity with Paul during his imprisonment. Like Paul, they too are suffering for the sake of the gospel. Thus he expresses great confidence in their spiritual progress.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

LOL!

Well…obviously people do it and it is possible. I, myself, tend to get overwhelmed and my brain starts firing too fast. I am definitely guilty of this same thing. I am just trying to slow it down a bit.

If you can do it! Keep it up!

I don’t think I will be able to keep it up!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

I just want to make a general statement about this chapter first. The Phillipians enjoy a special place in Paul’s heart as already indicated in this chapter and will be stated in the following chapters. He even expressing confidence that through their prayers he will be delivered. The Philipians have a persevering faith and love as demonstrated by their great love for the gospel since day one and their solidarity with Paul during his imprisonment. Like Paul, they too are suffering for the sake of the gospel. Thus he expresses great confidence in their spiritual progress.

God Bless,
Michael

Thank you for sharing that. I completely agree and receive all that you have shared.

 

[Mickey]

[For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.]

The cross is the door to mysteries. Through this door the intellect makes entrance in to the knowledge of heavenly mysteries. The knowledge of the cross is concealed in the sufferings of the cross. And the more our participation in its sufferings, the greater the perception we gain through the cross. For, as the Apostle says, `As the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
The Ascetical Homilies of St. Isaac of Syria

 

[Reformed]

[For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.]

The cross is the door to mysteries. Through this door the intellect makes entrance in to the knowledge of heavenly mysteries. The knowledge of the cross is concealed in the sufferings of the cross. And the more our participation in its sufferings, the greater the perception we gain through the cross. For, as the Apostle says, `As the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
The Ascetical Homilies of St. Isaac of Syria

That’s very good. I have always read the end of chapter 1 with the lenses of election and my theolgical distinctives of Reformed Theology.

“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake”

I never spent too much attention on the suffering sake, but on the part of God granting belief to some. I do believe true saving faith has to include suffering… or a struggle with the flesh and our new life in the Spirit (Rom 8), It seems by that verse that the suffering part is also granted by God for those who believe. The Christian life is one of suffering, trials, tribulation for our good. We are purged from our worldly desire as we grow in our love for God. Suffering appears to be allowed, caused, or even granted by divine providence for an intended purpose to make us more like Christ.

 

[Reformed]

Since we discussed the end of the chapter, how about the very begining of it?

Philippians 1

Greeting

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Protestants tend to see all Christians as saints based on our union with Christ. It is my understanding that the Catholic Church will determine if a Christian is an actual saint. It appears Paul is calling everyone in the church to be saints in chapter 1.Paul is greeting everyone (entire church in Philippi make up the saints) with grace and peace from God our Father. Do you want to explain why we understand this differently?

 

[cfrancis]

Since we discussed the end of the chapter, how about the very begining of it?

Philippians 1

Greeting

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Protestants tend to see all Christians as saints. It is my understanding that the Catholic Church will determine if a Christian is an actual saint. It appears Paul is calling everyone in the church to be saints in chapter 1.Paul is greeting everyone (entire church make up the saints by our union with Christ) with grace and peace with God. Do you want to explain why we understand this differently?

We do not understand this differently.
The Catholic Church calls all Christians saints as well.
What we also believe is there are some saints whose lives are most exemplary, most Christ-like. The Church holds up these saints as examples for us to imitate:
1 Cor 4
15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
16 Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.
Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

Here’s a way to think of it: all the people with whom I graduated high school are graduates; but there is only one valedictorian out of all those graduates.

 

[Reformed]

We do not understand this differently.
The Catholic Church calls all Christians saints as well.
What we also believe is there are some saints whose lives are most exemplary, most Christ-like. The Church holds up these saints as examples for us to imitate:
1 Cor 4
15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
16 Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.
Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

Here’s a way to think of it: all the people with whom I graduated high school are graduates; but there is only one valedictorian out of all those graduates.

Well, do you see how God can work through this thread to change all of us? I misunderstood that Roman Catholics did not believe that all Christians are saints. I believe Hebrews 11 verifies that there are some saints that have done more in the Christian life that others (by the grace of God). We can look to them as examples. I’m sure we all agree that Christ is our greatest example to look to. I think Paul writes something similar such as imitate me as I imitate Christ (loose paraphrase). Thank you for helping me learn and correct my misunderstanding.

 

[tGette]

Well, do you see how God can work through this thread to change all of us? I misunderstood that Roman Catholics did not believe that all Christians are saints. I believe Hebrews 11 verifies that there are some saints that have done more in the Christian life that others (by the grace of God). We can look to them as examples. I’m sure we all agree that Christ is our greatest example to look to. I think Paul writes something similar such as imitate me as I imitate Christ (loose paraphrase). Thank you for helping me learn and correct my misunderstanding.

I had to peek in real quickly.

Also…when it comes to the canonization process…people go from being saints to Saints…with a capital “S”. Only those declared being in Heaven are given Saint with the capital letter S.

Now…you ask…how does the Church know someone is in Heaven? Well…the Saints themselves make it known that they are in Heaven. It is through miracles attributed to making intercessory prayer (asking a Saint to pray for us) to a specific Saint that causes the canonization process to begin.

The Church does not simply pick people they think were really holy and declare them in Heaven…the Saints, being in Heaven, declare themselves in Heaven by hearing our prayers and making the petition to the Father on our behalf and having a miracle take place on Earth to prove this happens.

 

[Reformed]

I had to peek in real quickly.

Also…when it comes to the canonization process…people go from being saints to Saints…with a capital “S”. Only those declared being in Heaven are given Saint with the capital letter S.

Now…you ask…how does the Church know someone is in Heaven? Well…the Saints themselves make it known that they are in Heaven. It is through miracles attributed to making intercessory prayer (asking a Saint to pray for us) to a specific Saint that causes the canonization process to begin.

The Church does not simply pick people they think were really holy and declare them in Heaven…the Saints, being in Heaven, declare themselves in Heaven by hearing our prayers and making the petition to the Father on our behalf and having a miracle take place on Earth to prove this happens.

LOL… I feel so much better to participate on this neutral thread. Peace is a good thing! Okay, there is a distinction between saints and Saints… just like tradtion and Tradition. I’m okay with the Saints thing, but Paul had a reverse revelation experience. He went from least of all Apostles to least of all saints, to Chief sinner in his life. Did I get my small letter correct? I hope you know I’m just joking. I will try my best not to fight on this thread. I need a break for contending for the Faith with a capital F as in THE FAITH.

Can you see where you can get Calvinism at the end of the chapter 2 in which God grants belief and suffering both?

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi Reformed.

Some times the saints are refered to as “holy ones” (in my NAB). These reference might give you some insight into Catholic doctrine.

some references for the living (Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9)

some references for the dead (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10)

In the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” (A meaningful union of the living and dead in the body of Christ)

 

[Among_Strangers]

Since we discussed the end of the chapter, how about the very begining of it?

Philippians 1:1b To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: (RSV-CE). The RSV-CE is my personally preferred translation of Scripture that I carry in my car and read from most often. I think St. Paul is showing the Christ like attitude of Servant Leadership in the way he opens this epistle.

First greet the flock (saints), then the servants of the flock (bishops/overseers), then (last but not least) the servants of the servants of the flock (deacons). He greets all and it’s a little formal even though, as several have pointed out that, this congregation is dear to him and they know each other intimately. He respects and admires them. And as soon as he says, “Hi” he bestows a blessing: “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (1:2).

Maybe it’s an example for us to follow personally as Christians as a whole. Or perhaps it’s even more for the leadership of the Church to follow. It’s like a manual. First things first: Greet all, show respect, and bless. Just my 2 pennies.

 

[Reformed]

Hi Reformed.

Some times the saints are refered to as “holy ones” (in my NAB). These reference might give you some insight into Catholic doctrine.

some references for the living (Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9)

some references for the dead (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10)

In the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” (A meaningful union of the living and dead in the body of Christ)

Thanks for sharing and agree that God has given more grace to some than others. I do not have a problem with saints and Saints. Check out Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:10

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

2 Corinthians 12:7

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

 

[Reformed]

Philippians 1:1b To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: (RSV-CE). The RSV-CE is my personally preferred translation of Scripture that I carry in my car and read from most often. I think St. Paul is showing the Christ like attitude of Servant Leadership in the way he opens this epistle.

First greet the flock (saints), then the servants of the flock (bishops/overseers), then (last but not least) the servants of the servants of the flock (deacons). He greets all and it’s a little formal even though, as several have pointed out that, this congregation is dear to him and they know each other intimately. He respects and admires them. And as soon as he says, “Hi” he bestows a blessing: “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (1:2).

Maybe it’s an example for us to follow personally as Christians as a whole. Or perhaps it’s even more for the leadership of the Church to follow. It’s like a manual. First things first: Greet all, show respect, and bless. Just my 2 pennies.

That’s very edifying!

 

[Reformed]

I would like the opportunity to go through the Epistles of Paul together with others. We will go through an entire book one chapter at a time. You can post whatever comment that you have related to the chapter. But let’s try to keep our comments within the contents of the chapter posted. Let’s please give it a try:

Philippians 1

Greeting

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanksgiving and Prayer

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

The Advance of the Gospel

I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel, so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard and to all the rest that my imprisonment is for Christ. And most of the brothers, having become confident in the Lord by my imprisonment, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.

To Live Is Christ

Yes, and I will rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.

Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

Here is the chapter that we are currently discussing. Please all feel free to jump in. This is not a thread for the biblical scholar. It is a thread for all who love the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[cfrancis]

Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. **This is a clear sign **to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

This appears an admonition in the same manner of Christ’s admonition in:
Matthew 10:22 (Mark 13:13)
" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved

Luke 21:19
" By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

[Reformed]

“And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ”.

I understand this verse to teach that God started the work in us and will finish it for His own glory and name sake. God is transforming us from wretched sinners deserving of His eternal wrath for our rebellion against Him to the image of His Son for the primary purpose to demonstrate and manifest his glorious transforming grace. Salvation is a process with a predetermined end, to bring glory to God by completing the transformation process in each one of us. We are but vessels of mercy which God demonstrates His creative power in us. I really believe God does all things for His own glory. I’m not sure Paul is saying that once God started a work (new birth) that He will finish it in some but not all saints. The verse also seems to teach that God is the author of our faith (new birth) which goes against the teaching that we are converted by our choosing Christ. We choose Christ because God caused us (enabled us) to choose Christ. There is so much in chapter 1, don’t you think?

 

[Reformed]

This appears an admonition in the same manner of Christ’s admonition in:
Matthew 10:22 (Mark 13:13)
" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved

Luke 21:19
" By your endurance you will gain your lives.

…not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

The opponents that will be destroyed are not Christians. Those who are Christians are granted to believe in him and suffer for Christ’s sake. Maybe the suffering is caused by their oponents? Look what Paul say about the Christians…but of your salvation and that from God. For it has been granted to you…

 

[ryanoneil]

Thanks for sharing and agree that God has given more grace to some than others. I do not have a problem with saints and Saints.

And in the next few verses we see Paul praying for them. In essence asking God to give more grace to the ones he is praying for. We call this “Intercessory Prayer.”

Does your tradition have a term that describes praying for one another?

Check out Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:10

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

2 Corinthians 12:7

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Are you somehow relating these verses to Philippians? I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

 

[Reformed]

And in the next few verses we see Paul praying for them. In essence asking God to give more grace to the ones he is praying for. We call this “Intercessory Prayer.”

Does your tradition have a term that describes praying for one another?

Are you somehow relating these verses to Philippians? I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

We pray for one another. I don’t think we tell each other to intercede on my behalf. On those two Scriptures, I was trying to state that God gave Paul more grace and greater revelation than other saints. I was supporting the saint and Saint distinction in a way. I’m really not trying to support Reformed Theology and refute Roman Catholicism by going through the Scriptures. We are all reading Scriptures through lenses in what we currently believe. We all know in part. In the areas that I am in error in doctrine and life, I want to change.

And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

All of life is by the grace of God. I think Paul is asking for something more specific than giving the believers more grace. Paul is interceeding for them so that “that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God”.