Reading Scripture together as Christians

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Romans 6 is the inward reality of the baptism done by the Spirit of God which unites us to Christ. The outward sign of the inward reality is water baptism.
Please explain more. Are you saying that God doesn’t use outward signs to cause inward realities?
Acts 22:11-16
11 And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.
12 “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ - Acts
At what point was Saul able to see the Lord?
After Ananias layed his hands on Saul.
At what point was Paul born from above before or after water baptism?
After.
It sure seems Saul was baptized in the Holy Spirit before water baptism to be able to see Jesus Christ as who He is. Prior to that understanding, Saul was spirituality blind.
I don’t know when he recieved the Holy Spirit, because the verse doesn’t say. And it doesn’t bother me either way. No one can limit God.

Besides, water and Spirit are almost always connected when refering to baptism. God uses His creations to accomplish things.
You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8] - John 3
He must be born of water and spirit. They are together. I don’t understand your point.
 
Please explain more. Are you saying that God doesn’t use outward signs to cause inward realities?

After Ananias layed his hands on Saul.

After.

I don’t know when he recieved the Holy Spirit, because the verse doesn’t say. And it doesn’t bother me either way. No one can limit God.

Besides, water and Spirit are almost always connected when refering to baptism. God uses His creations to accomplish things.

He must be born of water and spirit. They are together. I don’t understand your point.
I posted several times in regards to this verse you keep posting. Obviously we have a mutually exclusive understanding what Jesus meant by being born of water and spirit.
 
I’m not sure what Luther, Calvin and Zwingli have to do with my question. I would be nice to get an answer to my questions during our Bible Study. The Scriptures should drive our questions and answers on this thread if possible. Here are my questions again:
If you don’t want to answer on behalf of your tradition, that is fine.
How about you answer your own question so I can understand your postition for a change.
Our diolog is becoming one sided again.
 
I posted several times in regards to this verse you keep posting. Obviously we have a mutually exclusive understanding what Jesus meant by being born of water and spirit.
Which is one reason why we see justification differently.
 
I’m not sure what Luther, Calvin and Zwingli have to do with my question. I would be nice to get an answer to my questions during our Bible Study. The Scriptures should drive our questions and answers on this thread if possible.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight…and you are readily answering our questions? “Good day pot, meet kettle.”
 
God the Holy Spirit works through these fallible men in creating the Holy Scriptures. Are you implying the Word of God is fallible? The author of Scripture is God. Does the Roman Catholic Church teach that the Scriptures are not God-breathed?
You clearly do not understand the principle of infallibility or to what it applies!
The Holy Spirit works through the fallible men of the Magisterium to produce infallible doctrine.

Here are some explanations from Catholic Answers’ pages for your benefit:
  • The infallibility of the pope is not a doctrine that suddenly appeared in Church teaching; rather, it is a doctrine which was implicit in the early Church. It is only our understanding of infallibility which has developed and been more clearly understood over time. In fact, the doctrine of infallibility is implicit in these Petrine texts: John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32 (“I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail”), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter . . . ").
  • Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to “guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15), even if individual Catholics might.
 
You clearly do not understand the principle of infallibility or to what it applies!
The Holy Spirit works through the fallible men of the Magisterium to produce infallible doctrine.

Here are some explanations from Catholic Answers’ pages for your benefit:
  • The infallibility of the pope is not a doctrine that suddenly appeared in Church teaching; rather, it is a doctrine which was implicit in the early Church. It is only our understanding of infallibility which has developed and been more clearly understood over time. In fact, the doctrine of infallibility is implicit in these Petrine texts: John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32 (“I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail”), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter . . . ").
  • Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to “guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15), even if individual Catholics might.
Thanks for joining us in our Bible Study. I understand the claim of apostolic succession. Let’s see how well Sacred Tradtion lines up with our Bible Study. 👍 Please understand the Protestant understanding of the Church is a different understanding of the Catholic understanding of the church.
 
This is the heart of the gospel of God’s grace:

For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

It seems our understanding of this passage divides our religious communities. Could you please explain your interpertation and understanding of this passage?
For Catholics, this means that the righteousness we posses does not come from observing the Mosaic Law - thus originating in man - but comes from God through faith. We do not believe that the righteousness being referred to here is not an alien and imputed righteousness, but a righteousness that comes from God and infused.

The idea of an alien and imputed righteousness first made it’s appearance in the writings of Martin Luther. Protestant Alister McGrath says the following regarding Augustine:

**“Man’s righteousness, effected in justification, is regarded by Augustine as inherent rather than imputed, to use the vocabulary of the sixteenth century. A concept of ‘imputed righteousness’, in the later Protestant sense of the term, would be quite redundant within Augustine’s doctrine of justification, in that man is made righteous in justification. The righteousness which man thus receives, although originating from God, is nevertheless located within man, and can be said to be his, part of his being and intrinsic to his person” (I:31). **

And Calvinist Dr. Sam Storms states:

**This radical and fundamental distinction between justification as a status obtained by initial faith and the subsequent sanctification or transformation of one’s nature through grace was a true theological novelty on the part of the reformers. **

enjoyinggodministries.com/article/16-the-doctrine-of-justification/

God Bless,
Michael
 
I’m not sure what Luther, Calvin and Zwingli have to do with my question. I would be nice to get an answer to my questions during our Bible Study. The Scriptures should drive our questions and answers on this thread if possible. Here are my questions again:

As I have already posted, our dividing line is the doctrine of justification. What is the basis of our justification? When are we justified according to Scripture? When we are justified, God adopts us into His family as a son or daughter of the Most High God. We cry abba Father, because He becomes our Heavenly Father. Why would our Heavenly Father disown us, or place us in a conditional relationship with Him as Father based on our obedience? For those who have been blessed to be an earthly father or mother, would you disown your children based on their disobedience to you? If your answer is no, why would God who is so much more greater than all of us abandon His adopted children whom Christ died for?
That’s an argument purely based on human logic and emotion. We believe that the Bible clearly indicates that a justified person can lose their justification (John 15, Hebrews 6, etc.) and that God can disinherit:

Revelation 22:19

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

God bless,
Michael
 
For Catholics, this means that the righteousness we posses does not come from observing the Mosaic Law - thus originating in man - but comes from God through faith. We do not believe that the righteousness being referred to here is not an alien and imputed righteousness, but a righteousness that comes from God and infused.

The idea of an alien and imputed righteousness first made it’s appearance in the writings of Martin Luther. Protestant Alister McGrath says the following regarding Augustine:

**“Man’s righteousness, effected in justification, is regarded by Augustine as inherent rather than imputed, to use the vocabulary of the sixteenth century. A concept of ‘imputed righteousness’, in the later Protestant sense of the term, would be quite redundant within Augustine’s doctrine of justification, in that man is made righteous in justification. The righteousness which man thus receives, although originating from God, is nevertheless located within man, and can be said to be his, part of his being and intrinsic to his person” (I:31). **

And Calvinist Dr. Sam Storms states:

This radical and fundamental distinction between justification as a status obtained by initial faith and the subsequent sanctification or transformation of one’s nature through grace was a true theological novelty on the part of the reformers.

enjoyinggodministries.com/article/16-the-doctrine-of-justification/

God Bless,
Michael
You sure have a habit of posting all kinds of commentaries as compared to simply discussing the Scriptures. Why do you like to refer to extra-biblical revelation and not wrestle with the Scriptures with all of us? Maybe we should make an agreed rule on this particular thread, that we can only refer to Scripture to make our points? Are you willing to abide by that rule?

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You sure have a habit of posting all kinds of commentaries as compared to simply discussing the Scriptures. Why do you like to refer to extra-biblical revelation and not wrestle with the Scriptures with all of us? Maybe we should make an agreed rule on this particular thread, that we can only refer to Scripture to make our points? Are you willing to abide by that rule?
OK, I agree.
Now, you’ll have to start with the canon of Scripture. Let’s see your Scriptural evidence for the canon!
After all, we need to make sure that that from which we cite is Scripture!
 
You sure have a habit of posting all kinds of commentaries as compared to simply discussing the Scriptures. Why do you like to refer to extra-biblical revelation and not wrestle with the Scriptures with all of us? Maybe we should make an agreed rule on this particular thread, that we can only refer to Scripture to make our points? Are you willing to abide by that rule?

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/armor/sword.jpg
The commentaries that I cite are directly related to the Scriptures being discussed. They either give historical background to how that passage was interpreted prior to the Reformation or they provide an interpretation based on Scripture. If someone provides a good exegesis of a passage or a good scriptural explanation of a doctrine, I don’t see the need to reinvent the wheel. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
The commentaries that I cite are directly related to the Scriptures being discussed. They either give historical background to how that passage was interpreted prior to the Reformation or they provide an interpretation based on Scripture. If someone provides a good exegesis of a passage or a good scriptural explanation of a doctrine, I don’t see the need to reinvent the wheel. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
Let’s agree not to post any type of link to commentaries. It appears by posting links, we are avoiding what is written. You can always start another thread if you think commentaries are important to your position and understanding.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-pictures-joy-water-elephant.jpg
 
By posting links I was addressing what is written. So you mean I can’t post from monergism.com either? 😃 😛

God Bless,
Michael
Yep, my commentaries are not considered Sacred Tradition like your extra-biblical source. So, we are all in agreement. No links to commentaries.
 
Yep, my commentaries are not considered Sacred Tradition like your extra-biblical source. So, we are all in agreement. No links to commentaries.
I highly doubt Catholics would consider “commentaries” by Calvinist Dr. Sam Storms, Arminians, or even Catholic theologians or apologists “Sacred Tradition.” Everything that I have cited is historical or based on Scripture.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Yep, my commentaries are not considered Sacred Tradition like your extra-biblical source. So, we are all in agreement. No links to commentaries.
Comments such as this cause your credibility to crumble.
 
Comments such as this cause your credibility to crumble.
I’m starting to wonder if these side comments are made intentionally to avoid actual discussion of the Scriptures. Let’s all try hard to just comment on the Scriptures without posting external links that will cause us to drift. We all cannot change what is written.
 
Philippians 2-3

Christ’s Example of Humility
2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [1] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, [2] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Lights in the World
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

Timothy and Epaphroditus
19 I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, so that I too may be cheered by news of you. 20 For I have no one like him, who will be genuinely concerned for your welfare. 21 For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know Timothy’s [3] proven worth, how as a son [4] with a father he has served with me in the gospel. 23 I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me, 24 and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also.

25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26 for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29 So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me.

Righteousness Through Faith in Christ
3:1 Finally, my brothers, [5] rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God [6] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, [7] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Straining Toward the Goal
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
 
In this chapter I really like: I like it because I think it has application directly to me. When I get all uppity in myself about what I think other Christians should do, say, act, feel, etc. I am chastised by this passage. Instead of being annoyed I should be as St. Paul and rejoice that “Christ is proclaimed” no matter what.

p.s. I like this idea for a thread and hope you have great success 🙂
I was thinking the exact same thing. The Bible isn’t a gun rack, full of verses we can take out (of context) to shoot at each other with.
 
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