Reading the Catechism

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ntisawesome

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Hi and thanks for reading my post.

I am currently sitting on the fence regarding becoming a member of the Catholic church. I was raised a protestant, and learned everything I thought I knew about Catholics from non-Catholics. Let’s just say I am realizing that I have been misinformed on many issues.

I understand that to become a Catholic one must embrace 100% of the teachings of the [Catholic] church. Thus is only makes sense that I should do my best to learn what all of those teachings are before I can become a member while remaining honest with myself and God.

A couple general questions:
  1. By reading the Catechism, will I have done this?
    (learned all the teachings of the Catholic church)
  2. Under what circumstances can these teachings change? and to what degree could they change within a single person’s lifetime?
A specific question:

Please know that I am nervous asking about Mary and I don’t want this to be taken the wrong way since I know how important she and her image is to Catholics. I promise I am just seeking clarification and wish to offend no one.

I am having a difficult time understanding why Catholics pray directly to Mary. I have read the section on the Blessed Virgin Mary and I must say it is very very complicated. I can accept that she was divinely protected from God and thus protected from original and personal sin for her whole life while still remaining human and retaining her free will. The part that I have difficulty with is this part:

It can be found in
Code: 
"Blessed Virgin Mary" 
  "Doctrine of the Second Vatican Council"
  "Christ the one mediator--and Mary"
It’s page 167 in the copy that was lent to me, I’m not sure how much that might deviate in someone else’s copy, but here it is.

“After the Assumption [into heaven] she could no longer merit grace for others, but she can still intercede and by her prayers exercise in glory a role comparable to that of other saints in heaven but immeasurably more effective because she is the Mother of the God with whom she pleads.”

This seems to be saying that Mary can somehow coerce (maybe too strong of a word but my brain cannot find a better one) God into answering her prayers because she is the mother of his son? I get a picture in my mind of a dad being too hard on his kids and then mom taking him aside privately and defending the children.

The implications as I see them are that different people have different abilities to influence God. This doesn’t make sense to me given what we are all taught as Christians.
 
Here is a good idea of what the Church teaches, the Tridentine Creed, this Creed was promulgated as part of the Catholic (Counter) Reformation, it is still valid to this day, though not often used outside of Traditionalists. It’s good though to contrast Catholicism with Protestantism.

I, N, with a firm faith believe and profess each and everything which is contained in the Creed which the Holy Roman Church maketh use of. To wit:

I believe in one God, The Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And became incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary: and was made man. He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, and who spoke through the prophets. And one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I await the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I most steadfastly admit and embrace Apostolical and ecclesiastical traditions, and all other observances and constitutions of the Church.

I also admit the Holy Scripture according to that sense which our holy mother the Church hath held, and doth hold, to whom it belongeth to judge of the true sense and interpretations of the Scriptures. Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

I also profess that there are truly and properly Seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind, though not all for every one; to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of these, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be reiterated without sacrilege.

I also receive and admit the received and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of the aforesaid sacraments.

I embrace and receive all and every one of the things which have been defined and declared in the holy Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification.

I profess, likewise, that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially, the Body and Blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood, which conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation. I also confess that under either kind alone Christ is received whole and entire, and a true sacrament.

I constantly hold that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful. Likewise, that the saints, reigning together with Christ, are to be honored and invoked, and that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I most firmly assert that the images of Christ, of the Mother of God, ever virgin, and also of other Saints, ought to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration is to be given them.ulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people.

I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church as the mother and mistress of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ.

I likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent, and by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican, particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching. I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the Church hath condemned, rejected, and anathematized.

This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, inviolate and with firm constancy until the last breath of life, I do so profess and swear to maintain with the help of God. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels.

I hope that you will come home to the Church of Christ.

Laus Deo
 
I have the CCC.

Though, what would experienced Catholics say about the Western Church?
 
God bless you as you struggle to do do His Holy Will!

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church is an excellent place to start. It fleshes out what we mean in the Creed and in the Ten Commandments, among other things.
  1. I’m no sure exactly what you mean by “all the teachings of the Catholic Church.” For example, the Church has always taught that taking innocent life is wrong, but specifically teaching the embryonic stem cell research is wrong is a new explanation of a constant teaching.
  2. The infallible teachings on Faith and Morals never change. There are specific criteria for an infallible teaching. One way ifsfor the Pope to speak “ex cathedra” and issue an infallible teaching for the universal Church on a matter of faith or morals. Another is for an infallible teaching to be issued by the Magisterium, the teaching office of the Church, when the Bishops united with the Pope issue a teaching on faith and morals which must be definitively held for the universal Church. See the Catechism for a more “authoritative and official” answer to this. Other teachings might not be authoritative, per se, but still authoritative and require our full assent, even though they could, in theory, change.
Other matters, such as those pertaining to discipline and liturgical rites can and do change.
  1. Ah, Mary!
    Intercession, like you find on earth, also happens in the supernatural realm. Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? That is what we do when we “pray” or talk to Mary. We can do that with any of the saints. Do you have a friend or family member who has died, and you have reason to think they are in heaven? If they are in heaven, you can talk to them and ask them to pray for you, intercede for you, just as they did on earth.
Mary is a special intercessor for many reasons. She is the closest creature to our Lord, His true flesh and blood Mother who also was spiritually perfectly united with Him. Also, He entrusted all of us to her when He was on the Cross, so she loves us with a true Mother’s Love. She will never ask Our Lord for anything that is against His Will, or that would be bad for us, so her prayers are the most powerful of all creatures. You are right in that it is a bit like Mom interceding for you with Dad. Mary is also Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and she can plead to her spouse on our behalf. She does plead for mercy when there is some chastisement we sorely deserve.

You can pray directly to God, but when the prayers come by way of Mary they are more pleasing. You can think of a gift that is handed over in a shopping bag, or lovingly wrapped and presented.

Or you can forget about the benefits to you, and just remember that she is Our Lord’s mother and if you want to please the Son, be respectful to the Mother! To put it in the vernacular, “Don’t be dissin’ His Mama!” 😉

The best book on this topic, though it might blow you away with it’s style and ideas that are new to you, is True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort.

Again, may God bless you as He draws you closer to Himself.
 
Remember that Doctrine cannot change. Research Dogma, Doctrine and Discplines. A lot of what people claim as Doctrine are really NOT Doctrine. By the way, the Second Vatican Council was not a Dogmatic Council but a Pastoral Council. They did not proclaim any new doctrine.

I have never understood the protestants reservation about Mary. She is mentioned numerous times throughout the Bible. The Holy Rosary is strictly scriptual. And as the Mother of God, how can you not at least venerate her?

There have been some good suggestions on the comments here. You stll need to talk to a traditional priest for some guidence. I’d be very careful in selecting a priest for guidence though. There are some real “whacko’s” out there.

I had one priest tell me " the Bible should begin ‘once upon a time’"

Go figure.
 
ntisawesome said:
Hi and thanks for reading my post.

I am currently sitting on the fence regarding becoming a member of the Catholic church. I was raised a protestant, and learned everything I thought I knew about Catholics from non-Catholics. Let’s just say I am realizing that I have been misinformed on many issues.

A couple general questions:

A specific question:

Please know that I am nervous asking about Mary and I don’t want this to be taken the wrong way since I know how important she and her image is to Catholics. I promise I am just seeking clarification and wish to offend no one.

I am having a difficult time understanding why Catholics pray directly to Mary. I have read the section on the Blessed Virgin Mary and I must say it is very very complicated. I can accept that she was divinely protected from God and thus protected from original and personal sin for her whole life while still remaining human and retaining her free will. The part that I have difficulty with is this part:

It can be found in
Code: 
"Blessed Virgin Mary" 
  "Doctrine of the Second Vatican Council"
  "Christ the one mediator--and Mary"
It’s page 167 in the copy that was lent to me, I’m not sure how much that might deviate in someone else’s copy, but here it is.

“After the Assumption [into heaven] she could no longer merit grace for others, but she can still intercede and by her prayers exercise in glory a role comparable to that of other saints in heaven but immeasurably more effective because she is the Mother of the God with whom she pleads.”

This seems to be saying that Mary can somehow coerce (maybe too strong of a word but my brain cannot find a better one) God into answering her prayers because she is the mother of his son? I get a picture in my mind of a dad being too hard on his kids and then mom taking him aside privately and defending the children.

The implications as I see them are that different people have different abilities to influence God. This doesn’t make sense to me given what we are all taught as Christians.
Click to expand...
Okay, I will tell you how it was explained to me, we, Catholics, use the word “pray” as in “to ask”. Protestants use the word “pray” to mean “worship”. We don’t worship Mary, but since we use the same word, it is confusing.

Now for the asking Mary to pray for us to God, I am reminded, and remind my CCD kids, about the passage from the Wedding at Cana. What happens when Mary tells Jesus that they , the bridal couple, have run out of wine. He says that it is not His time. What does she do? She turns to the stewards and says, " Do whatever he tells you." She doesn’t argue with him. She just knows that he will do what she asks. I am not saying that she will countermand what God, the Father, wants. Just that she has a special place with Jesus when it comes to requests. It doesn’t hurt to ask His mother to pray for us. Ultimately, it is God’s will be done. She always points to her son, Jesus. That is what the whole Rosary is about, Jesus’ life.
 
Thanks for the eager replies.
Or you can forget about the benefits to you, and just remember that she is Our Lord’s mother and if you want to please the Son, be respectful to the Mother! To put it in the vernacular, “Don’t be dissin’ His Mama!”
Click to expand...
I read in a Catholic book for teens something similar to this. The generic christian (you don’t have to be Catholic to believe it) reason for giving praise to Mary is as follows:
  1. As Christians, we seek to be like Christ.
  2. Mary is the mother of Jesus.
  3. Jesus followed all the commandments.
  4. Therefore Jesus honored his mother.
  5. Therefore Jesus honored Mary.
  6. In order to be like Jesus, we should honor Mary.
But it would seem that we can honor her without praying to her. And that not specifically praying to Mary is by no means “dissin’ his mama”.

You’ve made your point quite clear, and I will keep reading, so please don’t feel pressured to repeat or defend yourself. I’m still in an undecided stance on what I believe here.

But… the answer to this question from corsair is simple.
And as the Mother of God, how can you not at least venerate her?
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I can. As the mother of Jesus, I can hold her in the highest possible regard and believe through reasoning supplied in the Catechism that she is without sin - both original and personal.

I asked about praying directly to her and her prayers being more effective than ours.
 
A friend of mine once made a satirical remark which went something like this:

We Catholics don’t worship Mary, and she is not a goddess. But she did talk to Gabriel, Bore our Savior, then watched him die on the Cross, and view his body at the resurrection. Oh and she did it all without sin, so that gets respect.

I put it a more “Theological” way.

Jesus (as the Son) :signofcross: existed from all time, and was free to choose who would bear the Son of God. Why would he not pick the best possible candidate throughout all time and all the nations? And how could he allow the womb he would be in to be stained with sin?

Laus Deo
 
ntisawesome said:
I asked about praying directly to her and her prayers being more effective than ours.
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“The prayer of a righteous man profiteth much” James 5:14

Yes, the prayers of holy people are more effective. That applies to people here on earth and also to the saints in heaven.

Hope that helps!
 
ntisawesome said:
  1. By reading the Catechism, will I have done this?
    (learned all the teachings of the Catholic church)
  2. Under what circumstances can these teachings change? and to what degree could they change within a single person’s lifetime?
Click to expand...
1.Maybe. Maybe not.
2. A wide variety of answers, it depends on the specific teachings.
 
diggerdomer said:
An even better idea is the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed, which are in the Catechism and shared by all Christians.
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Exactly, those are for all Christians. He was specifically asking about Catholicism. And the Tridentine Creed contains the Apostles Creed.
 
DorianGregorian said:
Exactly, those are for all Christians. He was specifically asking about Catholicism. And the Tridentine Creed contains the Apostles Creed.
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Yes, but the Nicene and Apostles’ Creeds are much more widely known and prayed, e.g. at liturgy. And they are both in the Catechism (unlike the so-called Tridentine Creed). So they are much more useful references.
 
Okay, I will tell you how it was explained to me, we, Catholics, use the word “pray” as in “to ask”. Protestants use the word “pray” to mean “worship”. We don’t worship Mary, but since we use the same word, it is confusing.
Click to expand...
I think I have heard that before somewhere. That makes this easier to work with.
Jesus (as the Son) existed from all time, and was free to choose who would bear the Son of God. Why would he not pick the best possible candidate throughout all time and all the nations? And how could he allow the womb he would be in to be stained with sin?
Click to expand...
The Catechism also contains a sound argument that Mary is without any personal sin. It also makes a reasonable argument that she is without original sin. It is quite related to the quote above.
“The prayer of a righteous man profiteth much” James 5:14
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That is good stuff. I will look into that book [James] when I get home tonight.

May God bless you all for your helpful responses (I don’t usually say stuff like that).

If you can squeeze me into your prayers some time in the next few days I would really appreciate it and maybe one day I can return the gesture when it’s appropriate to do so.
 
ntisawesome said:
If you can squeeze me into your prayers some time in the next few days I would really appreciate it and maybe one day I can return the gesture when it’s appropriate to do so.
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I will remember you in my prayers. And from my perspective, it’s perfectly appropriate for you to pray for me now, and would be much appreciated.🙂
 
ntisawesome said:
  1. By reading the Catechism, will I have done this?
    (learned all the teachings of the Catholic church)
Click to expand...
More or less. It would be wise to at times consult the footnotes and read (at least excerpts of the documents referred to there).
  1. Under what circumstances can these teachings change? and to what degree could they change within a single person’s lifetime?
Click to expand...
The teachings (i.e., dogmas, doctrines) cannot change. They do not change.

Disciplines and traditions (small ‘t’, not big ‘T’) can vary from time and place and in particular cultures.
It’s page 167 in the copy that was lent to me, I’m not sure how much that might deviate in someone else’s copy, but here it is.
Click to expand...
Normally, to make it easier on yourself, you can simply quote the paragraph number (the bold number to the left of the paragraph in the real Catechism) and people should know exactly where you are finding your information in the Catechism… which, I have to point out:
“After the Assumption [into heaven] she could no longer merit grace for others, but she can still intercede and by her prayers exercise in glory a role comparable to that of other saints in heaven but immeasurably more effective because she is the Mother of the God with whom she pleads.”
Click to expand...
This quote is not from the “official” Catechism of the Catholic Church, but from Fr. John Hardon’s “The Catholic Catechism” (a good book, rest assured), a book meant to explain the Catechism in further detail. But it’s not “The” Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You can find the official Catechism on the Vatican website (or I know a person who gives away a copy to people learning about the Church). vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Personally, I like the Baltimore Catechism, it’s a straightforward question and answer format (like the newer Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, also available on the Vatican website).
catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
This seems to be saying that Mary can somehow coerce (maybe too strong of a word but my brain cannot find a better one) God into answering her prayers because she is the mother of his son? I get a picture in my mind of a dad being too hard on his kids and then mom taking him aside privately and defending the children.
Click to expand...
The implications as I see them are that different people have different abilities to influence God. This doesn’t make sense to me given what we are all taught as Christians.
Click to expand...
As to your real concerns regarding Our Lady; Mary does not coerce or trick God into answering her prayers (she wouldn’t need to). The will of Our Lady is in conformity with the will of God (as we’ve seen from her first appearance in Scripture), by praying to her and developing a devotion to her, Catholics themselves become more oriented to the will of God (because Mary leads to Jesus). Our Blessed Mother would never ask her Son, nor would she give us something (i.e., an answer to a prayer) that would be a stumbling block on our way to Salvation. Mary always draws us to her Son, she cannot do otherwise.

So why then do we say that Mary powerfully intercedes for us in Heaven? In the Old Testament, you will notice that the Queen is not the wife of the King-- but his *mother *(thus, Mary is also the Queen of Heaven who sits at the right hand of Jesus…), she was the Gebirah (“Great Lady” or “Queen Mother”) and had great power and interceded often on behalf of her subjects (cf. 1 Kings 2:13-21 (or if you have a Douay, it’s 3 Kings 2:13-21)). And, as someone has already mentioned, the prayer of a righteous person is very efficacious… Mary’s prayers then, would be the most effective since she was preserved even from all stain of sin.

Further, since Mary’s will is in perfect accord with the will of God (she is in Heaven) so she would not will something He Himself does not will… she intercedes for us before God, drawing us closer to the will of God, so that we, in turn, will conform our own will to that of God’s.
 
BTW, I don’t think anyone has mentioned this. BUT, it is NOT a requirement to be Catholic that you have to ask the saints, even Mary, to pray for you. It is something good to do. But, it is not required. It wasn’t until after I had kids that I even said the Hail Mary. That was at least 6 years after I became a Catholic. And, it is only recently, that I have started to regularly say the Rosary. I find true peace in meditating on Jesus’ life as I say it. 🙂
 
This quote is not from the “official” Catechism of the Catholic Church, but from Fr. John Hardon’s “The Catholic Catechism” (a good book, rest assured), a book meant to explain the Catechism in further detail. But it’s not “The” Catechism of the Catholic Church.
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Thanks for pointing that out. I was completely unaware.

With that out of the way, is the book I’m reading right for me? If I were to get through this book without finding anything that I could not agree with, would I ready to become a Catholic?
 
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