Reading the Context of 1 Corinthians 3

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For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. …] he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’ …] go out and join the others in my vineyard.’
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William_C said:
Which of the two is greater in terms of volume? Scripture, or Tradition?
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It is the living Apostolic Tradition that produced the scriptures. Don’t think so? Read the prologue to Luke (Luke 1:1-4). From it, we see that Theophilus learned nothing - zip, zero, nada, from Luke’s Gospel. Luke wrote the Gospel only to confirm the oral Apostolic teaching that Theophilus had already received. Read it again - you’ll see that it is in there. Since it is written in the bible, Catholics and Orthodox Christians absolutely believe it. If there was more than the bible, there still is more than the bible.

The Apostolic Tradition must be greater, as it contains all of the scriptures, plus that absolutely huge amount of teaching that the bible tells you it does not contain. But, where does the bible say that it does not contain everything? Try Luke 3:18, John 20:30, John 21:25, Acts 2:40, 1 Corinthians 11:34, Ephesians 6:21 and many, many other verses. But, since God’s word is timeless, the Church also has the magisterium (teaching authority of the Holy Spirit), to make the Word complete and - even more important - accurately and authoritatively proclaimed.

I fully realize that bible Christians often demand written proof of everything before they will believe. By that reasoning, Jesus’ Church failed upon its birth, since it had no bible. It failed miserably for its first 70 years, until the NT was not completed. It also must have failed for almost 400 years until the bible (canon of scripture) was finally declared.

Question to ponder: How could early believers possibly know the Gospel if they had no bibles?
 
po18guy said:
bible Christians often demand written proof of everything before they will believe.
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Our beloved Lord faced the same issue, and was not afraid of standing up and saying: “you have heard that it was said…but I say to you…”. Some would say: “you give witness of yourself”, to which the Lord would reply: “If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.”

The Apostles faced the same issue when they taught about the Lord being the Messiah, and when they taught about the Holy Spirit, and about the Holy Trinity.

Even more complex is the argument about the Sacraments.

I have heard all of the above being denied from a scriptural standpoint, and I have even had the sad privilege of hearing someone say: “I know the Scriptures very well, which is why I am an atheist”…

Everything the Church teaches **is **in the Scriptures, however what happens is that there is a persistent denial of the scriptural evidence, in the form of stating that the scripture referred to something else, or that the interpretation given is mistaken (perhaps providing a new one, often already condemned in the early centuries as heretic).

Other times some passages are plainly ignored and others are used to build the denial, ignoring that the Scriptures and the Tradition are a unique self, the living Word of God, and as such must be regarded: the Old Testament read through the New Testament, the Sacred Tradition as the fruit of the Scriptures, et cetera.

As soon as a thread goes into sola scriptura arguments it’s the end of it, because there are countless arguments written by both sides…the issue of this thread is whether 1 Corinthians 3 refers to purgatory or not. We point out what each doctrine says: according to the Catholic Church, this, according to the Lutheran church, this, etc. To come and say “that’s wrong, we all go to heaven” or “that’s wrong, we all fall asleep” etc. is of no help if we don’t know who says so.
 
R_C said:
That is not what we see, and above all that is not what Christ teaches.

Even though there are no works we could possibly do that would beyond what is our duty - we are called to be perfect as our heavenly Father and to love one another as the Son has loved us - those saved by the Lord will be known as such by their works:

With regards to those who believed in Christ but had no good works:

Indeed we quote from the Scriptures and from Sacred Tradition, which are under the light of the Holy Spirit. Others, of course, may deny or reject parts of the Church’s Depositum Fidei, and that is their choice. Some even deny that the Lord is the Messiah, or that there is a Holy Spirit. Others go further and deny the Scriptures. It’s all the way downhill once you reject the authority of the teachers. Once they would single out heretic doctrines and the faithful would humbly listen, now that respect is gone. We see this all the time when we discuss with our brothers from a variety of Christian communities…

For the benefit of protestant brothers who may be interested in a better understanding of the teachings of the Church on purgatory, apologist James Akin wrote an in-depth article here.
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That’s interesting, but I’m discussing 1 Cor 3:15 in which one sees that one saved by Christ can have no good works, but he is still saved.
 
po18guy said:
It is the living Apostolic Tradition that produced the scriptures. Don’t think so? Read the prologue to Luke (Luke 1:1-4). From it, we see that Theophilus learned nothing - zip, zero, nada, from Luke’s Gospel. Luke wrote the Gospel only to confirm the oral Apostolic teaching that Theophilus had already received. Read it again - you’ll see that it is in there. Since it is written in the bible, Catholics and Orthodox Christians absolutely believe it. If there was more than the bible, there still is more than the bible.

The Apostolic Tradition must be greater, as it contains all of the scriptures, plus that absolutely huge amount of teaching that the bible tells you it does not contain. But, where does the bible say that it does not contain everything? Try Luke 3:18, John 20:30, John 21:25, Acts 2:40, 1 Corinthians 11:34, Ephesians 6:21 and many, many other verses. But, since God’s word is timeless, the Church also has the magisterium (teaching authority of the Holy Spirit), to make the Word complete and - even more important - accurately and authoritatively proclaimed.

I fully realize that bible Christians often demand written proof of everything before they will believe. By that reasoning, Jesus’ Church failed upon its birth, since it had no bible. It failed miserably for its first 70 years, until the NT was not completed. It also must have failed for almost 400 years until the bible (canon of scripture) was finally declared.

Question to ponder: How could early believers possibly know the Gospel if they had no bibles?
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Yes, the early church, the church from which my church came, wrote the scriptures, and compiled them into a canon of scripture.

Unfortunately, there later came a split in that church. But that’s OK. We still have the scriptures put together by the early church. In them, we have the apostolic witness.

To God be the glory.
 
William_C said:
That’s interesting, but I’m discussing 1 Cor 3:15 in which one sees that one saved by Christ can have no good works, but he is still saved.
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I do not read what you read. I do not read that one can have no good works. The scripture is not saying that.
If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire
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I see a man who did works, and I know that God judges the intentions, not the works - which perhaps is why the work may go burned up yet the person be saved.

Besides, this scripture is evidence for the benefit of good works: for when his work was burned up, he suffered loss. Works are valuable in the eyes of God. The person in the scripture was saved, “yet as through fire”, because the work was burned up.
 
William_C said:
That’s interesting, but I’m discussing 1 Cor 3:15 in which one sees that one saved by Christ can have no good works, but he is still saved.
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Read it again: It says that a man’s works will be tested. Not everyone’s works of charity will stand the test of fire.

We must not conflate Christian works of love with the Old Testament works of the Mosaic law. That is a snare laid by the devil.
 
po18guy said:
Read it again: It says that a man’s works will be tested. Not everyone’s works of charity will stand the test of fire.

We must not conflate Christian works of love with the Old Testament works of the Mosaic law. That is a snare laid by the devil.
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List for me all of the works of charity that aren’t works of the Mosaic law?
 
R_C said:
I do not read what you read. I do not read that one can have no good works. The scripture is not saying that.
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No, that is what it’s saying. All of works burned up, they were useless, but he was saved.
 
William_C said:
No, that is what it’s saying. All of works burned up, they were useless, but he was saved.
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But not all of the works were burned! You are reading meaning into the scripture that is not there.

1 Corinthians 3:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Work that abides will earn a reward. How much clearer can it be? Paul constantly hammers about doing good works.

Romans 13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Timothy 2:10
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1 Timothy 5:10
Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

1 Timothy 5:25
Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

1 Timothy 6:18
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14
And let our’s also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Do you declare Paul wrong? If so, by what authority?
 
William_C said:
Yes, the early church, the church from which my church came, wrote the scriptures, and compiled them into a canon of scripture.

Unfortunately, there later came a split in that church. But that’s OK. We still have the scriptures put together by the early church. In them, we have the apostolic witness.

To God be the glory.
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Where is your evidence that your church came from the early church? History simply doesn’t support your claim.
 
Ok it has been shown that good works are necessary for salvation.

This post got a little bit off topic.

What we are speaking of here is purgatory. No on has argued from the Scripture that 1 Cor 3:12-15 is speaking of “the day” as each and everyone’s death, individually and sporatically throughout history.

It is clear there that “the day” will reveal it refers to the day of Judgement. For this is the time where ministers are judged (1 Cor 4:1-5).

Why is everyone so divorced from what St. Paul is saying?
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Ok it has been shown that good works are necessary for salvation.

This post got a little bit off topic.

What we are speaking of here is purgatory. No on has argued from the Scripture that 1 Cor 3:12-15 is speaking of “the day” as each and everyone’s death, individually and sporatically throughout history.

It is clear there that “the day” will reveal it refers to the day of Judgement. For this is the time where ministers are judged (1 Cor 4:1-5).

Why is everyone so divorced from what St. Paul is saying?
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Where did Jesus go upon His death? And why?
 
William_C said:
Yes, the early church, the church from which my church came, wrote the scriptures, and compiled them into a canon of scripture.

Unfortunately, there later came a split in that church. But that’s OK. We still have the scriptures put together by the early church. In them, we have the apostolic witness.

To God be the glory.
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Do you allege that the gates of hell prevailed against the Church? If so, by what authority do you proclaim this?
 
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