Reading the Context of 1 Corinthians 3

  • Thread starter Thread starter Erick_Ybarra
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Why? It’s a simple request. Either you can do it, or you can’t.
First: Do you understand the difference between the ritual “works” of the old covenant Mosaic law and the Christian works of charity under the new and everlasting covenant? Jesus said “the poor you will always have with you and you may do good unto them whenever you wish” Good works include doing good to the poor, as per Jesus’ advice. Proclaiming the Gospel is a work. Should we not do that?

It truly seems like you lump all works together as bad or meaningless. Jesus certainly did not.
 
First: Do you understand the difference between the ritual “works” of the old covenant Mosaic law and the Christian works of charity under the new and everlasting covenant? Jesus said “the poor you will always have with you and you may do good unto them whenever you wish” Good works include doing good to the poor, as per Jesus’ advice. Proclaiming the Gospel is a work. Should we not do that?

It truly seems like you lump all works together as bad or meaningless. Jesus certainly did not.
Please answer the question.
 
It is clear there that “the day” will reveal it refers to the day of Judgement.
I found the following quote from this General Audience of pope John Paul II:
The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person’s work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: ‘If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire’ (1 Cor 3:14-15).
An interesting statement from here (New American Bible, a Catholic bible translation):
The text of ⇒ 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.
(P.s.: sorry I rewrote my reply…)
 
They simply did not see the alignment with 4:1-5. Otherwise we need a new standard for reading
 
That’s awfully vague. Nevertheless, seeing as you think there’s good historical evidence for your interpretation of church history, please answer this question. You said “Yes, the early church, the church from which my church came, wrote the scriptures, and compiled them into a canon of scripture. Unfortunately, there later came a split in that church.”

Now, when exactly (or approximately) do you believe that split occurred?
 
That’s awfully vague. Nevertheless, seeing as you think there’s good historical evidence for your interpretation of church history, please answer this question. You said “Yes, the early church, the church from which my church came, wrote the scriptures, and compiled them into a canon of scripture. Unfortunately, there later came a split in that church.”

Now, when exactly (or approximately) do you believe that split occurred?
There you go.

It occurred at the reformation.
 
There you go.

It occurred at the reformation.
Well, then, I can only conclude you haven’t done your homework on Church history, because you’re then left to explain why the doctrine of purgatory has been taught in the Church implicitly since at least the 2nd century and explicitly since at least the 4th. I’ll start with a few of the more explicit teachings of one of the most well known Church Fathers and then work my way up from the earliest documents:

***“Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment” ***(Augustine of Hippo, The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire." (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

“The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year.** May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius.**” (Epitaph of St. Abercius [A.D. 190]).

“[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died.** This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and * I knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day*** until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).

“A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice” (Tertullian, Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).

“It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering.** It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord**” (Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire."** (Greogry of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).
 
(continued from above)

“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them” (John Chrysostom, Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

“But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death.” (Augustine of Hippo, ibid., 172:2).

So we see that the doctrine of purgatory is one that was present in the early Church, well over a millenia prior to the reformation. So do you maintain that the split in the Church really occured when the Apostles were fresh in their graves and remained in apostasy for over 1000 years?
 
Well, then, I can only conclude you haven’t done your homework on Church history, because you’re then left to explain why the doctrine of purgatory has been taught in the Church implicitly since at least the 2nd century and explicitly since at least the 4th.
Where is it taught in Scripture?
 
So we see that the doctrine of purgatory is one that was present in the early Church, well over a millenia prior to the reformation.
Where is purgatory taught in Scripture?

Give me the scriptural basis for it, along with the Scriptural statements for it.
 
Where is purgatory taught in Scripture?

Give me the scriptural basis for it, along with the Scriptural statements for it.
Well, you could start with the verse cited in the title of this thread. 🤷

Here are others:

“And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” - Matthew 12:32. Here Jesus implies that sins can be cleansed “in the age to come.”

“Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” Matthew 5:25-26. Here Jesus suggests that there is a place of punishment from which one may eventually be released. Of course Protestants disagree with this interpretation, but to quote Tim Staples: "But for many Protestants, our Lord is here giving simple instructions to his followers concerning this life exclusively. The statement has nothing to do with purgatory. That traditional Protestant interpretation is very weak when the verses are taken contextually. They are found in the midst of the famous Sermon on the Mount, where our Lord teaches about heaven (v. 20), hell (29-30), and both mortal (22) and venial sins (19), in a context that presents “the kingdom of heaven” as the ultimate goal (see 3-12). Our Lord goes on to say if you do not love your enemies, “what reward have you” (46)? And he makes very clear these “rewards” are not of this world. They are “rewards from your Father who is in heaven” (6:1) or “treasures in heaven” (6:19).

And again, to recap the theme of this thread:

“For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” - 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Again, Tim Staples says in response to Protestant objections: "The Protestant will immediately focus on the fact that nowhere does the text explicitly mention “the cleansing of sin.” It describes only the testing of works. The passage emphasizes the rewards believers will receive for their service, not how their character is cleansed from sin. And the believers here watch their works go through the fire, while they escape it…

…Most importantly, however, this idea of works being burned up apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives . . . he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Gk. dia puros). The truth is: Both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by Paul so that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like purgatory, doesn’t it?"

And I would like to submit that your argument still suffers the most glaring problem of Sola Scriptura Christianity: Sola scriptura is itself not supported by the Bible, nor by Christian history. Over 20 years of church history took place before Paul wrote his epistles, up to nearly a century before the Gospels were completed and another 300+ before Scripture was canonized by the Church. So you’re left with several centuries of Christian communities that had no access to Scripture and more importantly, numerous early Christian writings that predate the compilation of the New Testament and reflect Catholic doctrine, including those of St. Clement who learned under St. Peter (and succeeded him.) He writes of the real presence and other Catholic doctrines in the first-second centuries.

I’ll leave you with the most clear cut Scriptural case against Sola Scriptura (2 Thessalonians 2:15):
**
“So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”**

Not all of the Christian faith was written down initially. However, purgatory is one doctrine that has pretty decent Scriptural support. Like the Trinity and the Eucharist, it is not explicitly defined, but was handed down by the Apostles (irrefutably provable in the case of the Eucharist by the fact that the real presence was written about by Peter’s successor, Linus, who is mentioned several times in Scripture.)
 
40.png
prodigalson2011:
So we see that the doctrine of purgatory is one that was present in the early Church, well over a millenia prior to the reformation.
Where is purgatory taught in Scripture?

Give me the scriptural basis for it, along with the Scriptural statements for it.
William,

Just a second, though. You asserted that the break occurred at the Reformation. Prodigal has demonstrated that centuries before the break, the Church – which (by implication of your statements) is ‘your’ Church – agreed with the doctrine of Purgatory. Before you can assert a “Scripture only” approach, you should probably address prodigal’s question (“do you maintain that the split in the Church really occured when the Apostles were fresh in their graves and remained in apostasy for over 1000 years?”)…

Thanks!

Blessings,

G.
 
William,

Just a second, though. You asserted that the break occurred at the Reformation. Prodigal has demonstrated that centuries before the break, the Church – which (by implication of your statements) is ‘your’ Church – agreed with the doctrine of Purgatory. Before you can assert a “Scripture only” approach, you should probably address prodigal’s question (“do you maintain that the split in the Church really occured when the Apostles were fresh in their graves and remained in apostasy for over 1000 years?”)…

Thanks!

Blessings,

G.
Thanks for pointing out his diversion. Unfortunately, it seems he has gotten himself banned, and apparently for doing just that thing–stirring a lot of pots without cooking anything. In every thread he has participated in recently he has been attacking Catholic positions while providing no argument for his own. It never ceases to amaze how deeply entrenched some Protestants’ anti-Catholicism can be; to be faced with evidence he clearly has no means of rebuking and continue standing obstinately on the bloody stumps of his own arguments. It brings to mind a certain black knight:

😃
 
That’s interesting, but I’m discussing 1 Cor 3:15 in which one sees that one saved by Christ can have no good works, but he is still saved.
Re: [1 Cor 3:11-15]. That’s not what’s going on. The man is judged on works done in life. This is not a man who does no works. If it was it would create contradictions all over scripture.

Many quote the following passages and stop at vs 9. What about vs 10? What do you suppose happens to US if we don’t do what we are created to do? God made us to do good works that He prepared in advance for us to do. What happens to us if we don’t do them?

Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

grace + faith + good works = saved

If one has NO good works they have a dead faith and a dead faith won’t save them.Jas 2:26]

said another way,

If we don’t do what God created us to do, and do what He prepared in advance for us to do, we will end up like the tree that won’t bear fruit.

Matt 3:10
The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Lk 13:6
“A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ 8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top