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archangel04
Guest
Two things are either going to happen 1. this thread will be locked, or 2. Your going to get a lot of people who hate RCTV on here about how Micheal is no good for the Church.
Gonna sit back and relax
Gonna sit back and relax
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MtnDwellar
Guest
May I have this seat next to yours?Two things are either going to happen 1. this thread will be locked, or 2. Your going to get a lot of people who hate RCTV on here about how Micheal is no good for the Church.
Gonna sit back and relax
:hey_bud:
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Oh, how dissappointing. Here I had enjoyed the Vortex, up until this point. My disenchantment is derived not from their opinion however, but because it is such a cut and dried case of Post Hoc fallacy.
The Post Hoc fallacy derives its name from the Latin phrase “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.” This has been traditionally interpreted as “After this, therefore because of this.” This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that one event causes another simply because the proposed cause occurred before the proposed effect. More formally, the fallacy involves concluding that A causes or caused B because A occurs before B and there is not sufficient evidence to actually warrant such a claim.
The claim (A), since 71% of ordained priests used to be altar boys
therefore
(B) Being an altar boy makes one a priest.
:ehh:
From my understanding 100% of the victims of pedophilia were altar boys, (and I hate to bring this up) now, does it follow that being an altar boy makes you a victim? No, of course not.
Further, and this is a completely unscientific man-on-the-street kind of survey:
Every single ex-Catholic man I know, used to be an altar boy.
Since there are a lot more ex-Catholic men then there are Priests, it is only natural to conclude that being an altar boy has a far greater probability of making a man an ex-Catholic; right?
It’s just really bad logic.
And my last :twocents: (I hope) on this issue:
It has been my experience that in every single church I have ever been, the girls were asked to be altar servers because the boys simply were not there. Period. Don’t blame women for stepping up to the plate where males drop the ball.
I noticed Michael Voris was slurring his words a bit; maybe we should just chalk this debacle up to some bad Roman wine and let it go.
The Post Hoc fallacy derives its name from the Latin phrase “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.” This has been traditionally interpreted as “After this, therefore because of this.” This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that one event causes another simply because the proposed cause occurred before the proposed effect. More formally, the fallacy involves concluding that A causes or caused B because A occurs before B and there is not sufficient evidence to actually warrant such a claim.
The claim (A), since 71% of ordained priests used to be altar boys
therefore
(B) Being an altar boy makes one a priest.
:ehh:
From my understanding 100% of the victims of pedophilia were altar boys, (and I hate to bring this up) now, does it follow that being an altar boy makes you a victim? No, of course not.
Further, and this is a completely unscientific man-on-the-street kind of survey:
Every single ex-Catholic man I know, used to be an altar boy.
Since there are a lot more ex-Catholic men then there are Priests, it is only natural to conclude that being an altar boy has a far greater probability of making a man an ex-Catholic; right?
It’s just really bad logic.
And my last :twocents: (I hope) on this issue:
It has been my experience that in every single church I have ever been, the girls were asked to be altar servers because the boys simply were not there. Period. Don’t blame women for stepping up to the plate where males drop the ball.
I noticed Michael Voris was slurring his words a bit; maybe we should just chalk this debacle up to some bad Roman wine and let it go.
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InspiritCarol
Guest
meh.May I have this seat next to yours?
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archangel04
Guest
All yours buddy! lolMay I have this seat next to yours?
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ANNE_2
Guest
Michale Voris is not the only one or the first one to speak about Altar Girls.
Vatican Prefect Emeritus of the " Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments " , Cardinal Francis Arenzi said the following:
**What about Altar Girls? … Cardinal Arinze **
youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY
I have to go along with the wisdom of Cardinal Arinze (and Michael Voris).
This of course means that men and boys need to step up to the plate and volunteer at their Parish Church to be Altar Servers.
They will train you.
Vatican Prefect Emeritus of the " Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments " , Cardinal Francis Arenzi said the following:
**What about Altar Girls? … Cardinal Arinze **
youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY
I have to go along with the wisdom of Cardinal Arinze (and Michael Voris).
This of course means that men and boys need to step up to the plate and volunteer at their Parish Church to be Altar Servers.
They will train you.
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Barbkw
Guest
I think Michael raises a great point:
Where are all the Catholic men?
Where are all the Catholic men?
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ProVobis
Guest
I notice the emphasis is on altar serving, but it seems feminization started occuring well before female altar serving: reader, cantor, EMHC, etc.
As far as the 71% statistic goes, I believe it was closer to 95% in the pre-Vatican II period.
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InspiritCarol
Guest
They’re home watching sports on TV, dear.
… But apparently that’s our fault …
Thank God I was never an altar girl or I suppose I’d have to answer to God for eliminating a priest from our ranks.
Do men *really *feel this way?
I guess I’ve been attending a different Catholic Church.
My poor husband spends his entire Sunday working for the church doing very manly things; no-one ever joins him despite the open, on-going need and invitation. Even with women filling in the gaps, there is still a huge dearth of men for the manly roles that are simply sitting empty.
Do logical, thinking human beings (not ones trying to get a rise - or sell a story) *really *think this is because of the presence of altar girls, women lectors, etc?
Hmm… Personally, I would gladly step down as Music director/ Liturgy coordinator (yes, that’s right, I do both) if some ONE, male or female would step forward.
This finger pointing just seems so silly to me.
…so *insulting *too.
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ProVobis
Guest
I thought it was insulting when they removed the Latin responses and other various functions from us servers back in the 60’s. Whereas one day you have a very important role in the sanctuary, in matter of a few years, your role is relegated to almost nothing except perhaps symbolism of the past. My younger brother didn’t even see the point. Eliminating the subdeacon function, solemn Masses, Benedictions, novenas, etc. didn’t help either.
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InspiritCarol
Guest
See, now… this is so strange to me - born in the early 70’s I can only imagine. It *DOES *sound awful. But… you don’t think this was the fault of women or feminization somehow… do you?
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ProVobis
Guest
A good book to read on this is *The Church Impotent, The Feminization of Christianity *by Leon Podles. He goes into the matter much better than I could here in a short post.See, now… this is so strange to me - born in the early 70’s I can only imagine. It *DOES *sound awful. But… you don’t think this was the fault of women or feminization somehow… do you?
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Elsport1
Guest
I’d have to say I agree completely with Voris.
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damooster
Guest
Michael Voris may have offended you, but that’s no reason to lash out all men because of it. You call out Voris for doing something, and then you turn around and do it.They’re home watching sports on TV, dear.
… But apparently that’s our fault …
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At_Trent
Guest
Yes, little boy in the pew get’s old enough to start looking around, wondering what is happening in the sanctuary. Sees altar girls. Impression is left. Thinks that is “something girls do.”
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InspiritCarol
Guest
But I didn’t lash out at all men, just the ones who aren’t in church.Michael Voris may have offended you, but that’s no reason to lash out all men because of it. You call out Voris for doing something, and then you turn around and do it.
Please read my posts.
I DO kind of resent that my husband has no men compatriots to share the burden he bears. I deeply resent the men who send their wives to church with all their children and sit home on their laurels doing whatever they please. These men not only exist, but are plentiful. To verify their existence does in no way malign all men. Men are great: rah men. Go, go, go - just please go to church and stop making silly excuses like the presence of altar girls as being the reason you don’t feel like giving back to God.
Michael didn’t offend me a bit. Again, please *read *my posts. I do think there is a case that having girls as altar servers *might *set false expectations, but that was not Voris’ argument. My disappointment was regarding the illogic of HIS argument here, and judging by the responses I’m seeing, I’m going to continue to be disappointed over the fact that logic is not taught in our school system.
ProVobis, I will try to make time to read the book you have suggested, I’m not saying that there is nothing to this whole “feminization” thing. I have far too little experience to make that call; but I can say definitively that there is absolutely no substance in THIS thread or video to convince me of anything except that people are completely illogical beings.
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archangel04
Guest
I was a server for 10 years from 94 to 04 so I saw what happen for those 10 years. When I first started I would only serve once if not twice a month for the fact that there were too many altar boys at the time, we had no shortage. Now I am not saying this is the case, but around when I started our parish allowed females to join. Only 2 girls started to serve. I was young and was always embarrassed to serve next to them because other boys would start making fun of me, you know how it is lol. As I got older, boys just started to leave and other boys were just not stepping up to the plate. It got bad where I was the only one serving mass for 3 months straight. More girls started showing up and I really had no problem with it, but I had more problem was the lack of reverence, lack of prayer some of them had, and it seemed that their purpose was to be up there to look pretty. Soon I started getting complaints or looks from parents on why I would not let their kids hold the cross, even though it was reserved for the oldest, leader, or tallest, which in this case all three pertain to me. Sure did not help that the abuse scandals broke out when I was in high school so that made the bullying a lot worst for me, imagine getting picked on because you are an altar boy, now it had gotten worst because it was just more fuel for the bullies.
Anyways now at the parish the girls outnumber the boys 3 to 1, and the boys don’t last. The girls up there don’t serve the way we served, and I’ve seen all of them serve only a few show reverence for what they do. The person that trained me is still there and always complaining about all the different she has to do in the parish, including training for servers. I offered to take over and presented a plan for them:
1, start a new group called Knights of the Altar, were boys 5th grade and up receive very well training and take an exam at the end to see if they are up for the task. Once they have passed have a mass to celebrate their entrance to the group, taking an “oath” to serve Christ and his priest and be a guardian of the most sacred altar.
2. Have a “leadership structure” where the new ones start at the bottom and work their way up example: book bearer to torch bearer, to MC
3. Continue educating them about the theology of the mass, and encourage vocations.
In the end I was told I was not qualified, it was unfair to girls, and that those names like knights of the altar or MC belong to those on their way to ordination.
Anyways now at the parish the girls outnumber the boys 3 to 1, and the boys don’t last. The girls up there don’t serve the way we served, and I’ve seen all of them serve only a few show reverence for what they do. The person that trained me is still there and always complaining about all the different she has to do in the parish, including training for servers. I offered to take over and presented a plan for them:
1, start a new group called Knights of the Altar, were boys 5th grade and up receive very well training and take an exam at the end to see if they are up for the task. Once they have passed have a mass to celebrate their entrance to the group, taking an “oath” to serve Christ and his priest and be a guardian of the most sacred altar.
2. Have a “leadership structure” where the new ones start at the bottom and work their way up example: book bearer to torch bearer, to MC
3. Continue educating them about the theology of the mass, and encourage vocations.
In the end I was told I was not qualified, it was unfair to girls, and that those names like knights of the altar or MC belong to those on their way to ordination.
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laszlo
Guest
I do not watch videos and do not like Michael Voris. However, the argument that 71% of the ordained priest was altar boy is proof that being altar boy is one of the road toward the priesthood, and the most walked road.
As a comparison only 47% of ordinands attended Catholic elementary school, and about the same number were encouraged by their mother toward the priesthood.
The regular age to learn to be altar server is 8-12, and this is also the age when the presence of girls means sissy group for boys. Altar girls may be the pride of their mother but they meant damage for the Church.
Here is the CARA 2011 survey
usccb.org/vocations/classof2011/ordination-class-2011-report.pdf
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lizaanne
Guest
The real (and not snarky) answer, is that they have been contracepted out of existence. If couples were not contracepting their families down to one boy and one girl perfection, then mothers would not be so reluctant to give up their only son and carrier of the family name, to the priesthood.
I heard an awesome story about a priest who was asked by someone in his parish, what concrete thing can we do to help vocations. The priest answered, go home, flush your contraceptive pills, and have sex with your husband.
~Liza
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