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ProVobis
Guest
I thought it was a loophole in canon law that allowed for “alter” girls.
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Catholic41506
Guest
I don’t remember Mary ever complaining to Peter about her lack of participation in what was going on. Women of our time would be wise to look to our Mother as an example of how women should act and dress. 
No, I don’t care for female altar servers. I cringe when I see women near the altar. Even my six year old son has asked why girls are up there due to his understanding of a MALE only priesthood.
No, I don’t care for female altar servers. I cringe when I see women near the altar. Even my six year old son has asked why girls are up there due to his understanding of a MALE only priesthood.
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ANNE_2
Guest
If all Catholic women strove to be like our Blessed Mother, what a great world this would be.
God made a Woman the greatest Saint who ever lived !
The proof is in the statistics.
In Cardinal Arinze’s home Country of Africa where they do not permit Altar Girls, they have the most significant number of Priestly vocations. Poland also does not permit Altar girls.
These two Countries are supplying many Priests to assist Parishes throughout the USA or our shortage would mean many Americans would not be able to attend Mass and receive the Sacraments.
My Parish has a wonderfully faithful Pastor who was born and raised in Poland.
youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY
We need the men and boys to volunteer at their Parishes.
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MtnDwellar
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Aaah! Again with the logic!
Where are these so-called statistics?
Ireland supplies more priest than any country I’ve seen. (I fully admit I have no real data on this.) Yet they allow altar girls… How can this be?
Maybe there is another factor or factors that contribute; I’m thinking like maybe the fact that a country puts God as its priority. It’s my understanding that people actually attend Mass in these countries that supply priests. Maybe we should start there, doesn’t it make more sense that when a population goes to Mass and puts God first, it is only natural that Priestly vocations result?
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Correlation does not imply causation.
As an aside, Africa certainly does permit Altar girls. Or at least, it is happening, big time. In all my Parishes we have Altar girls.
But more to the point. This is a slight derailment. I can believe that Africa is producing more Priests and there are more vocations here. But we need to look at the reasons why.
For one, many see it as an escape. Many African boys are taught by their parents that being a Priest is easy, gets them fed, paid and it’s comfortable - oh and you also get a free ticket to Heaven. This is the reality of Africa. God forgive me for saying this, but the Priests we are churning out here are not good Priests. For the very reason that vocations are not really vocations in the first place - and because seminaries are poor and things are made easier, more lax and it’s more about making the stats improve rather than making a fantastic, orthodox Priest.
It’s a real shame. The point is that the statistics do not really make a point either way IMO.
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laszlo
Guest
No. Everything you say is against the principles how the statistics had to be interpreted in the social science.
This 71% is the 2011 US average. Parents do not feel responsibility to raise priests for the future generation, and since the nineties many boys are scared away from being altar server, by the altar-girls. In this circumstances the 71% altar boy service as preparation for vocation is extremely high.
Also if you read the survey, you will see, that about the same percentile of the vocations was encouraged by priest (and almost half as many by parents). Serving as altar boy is the main mean to met the priest at the early age
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Do you read scripture? I can’t imagine Mary complaining anyway, but she, least of all had any reason to do so as she was there from beginning to end and beyond.I don’t remember Mary ever complaining to Peter about her lack of participation in what was going on. Women of our time would be wise to look to our Mother as an example of how women should act and dress.
From the Annunciation
to Wedding at Cana,
to the Foot of the Cross
to the Upper Room
And enough places in between for us to have a good picture that she was, if not there with Jesus in person at all times, at least for a significant and, to me, startling amount of the time.
Throw in all the other Marys and you have a LOT of women close to Jesus, again, if not at all times (and we can’t be certain of that since women were not held in enough esteem in the culture to be even counted); at least at a significant portion of the Key events that surround his ministry. Who was the first to see the resurrected Jesus? Are you one of those who would use this to imply impropriety between Jesus and Mary Magdalene? Think about how remarkable and strange the presence of all these women are considering how misogynistic and repressive the culture was of that day. Was our Lord trying to tell us something?
Now, while I completely agree that modest, respectful clothing should be worn; do we have any idea what Mother Mary really wore?
To which you answer that his focus shouldn’t be on the people around him but on God.
Satan tries to distract us with all kinds of things at Mass: annoying people; annoying kids; a “bad” sermon; annoying music; and, of course all the countless minutia in our lives that we carry with us to Mass and somehow have so… much… trouble letting go of for just 45 minutes out of the week. How truly sad and lost are we, that these things become so important in light of the opportunity that is laid before us?
For the record, I don’t care for any altar server who is not there to serve for the Mass. Perhaps the girls in your parish are there to be “on display”. I could see that as being repulsive.
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Then either the principles of the social science are flawed or your understanding of them is because as NewsTheMan so succinctly points out "Correlation does not imply causation. " Yet that is how we are told to view the world around us, I agree: newspapers and television try to give us “facts” all the time that seem to imply one thing *must *follow from another. I am struggling with trying to explain this to someone who thinks that Catholicism is a natural progression from Paganism.
I only bring logic into the argument; and if that is against any kind of principles, then maybe you ought to reexamine those principles.
Here you have a problem stemming from parents and you would blame it on the presence of girls. This ALL stems from extremely poor catechisis and the way the church seems to have been blind to the myriad attacks on Her flock for several generations now.
laszlo, as so often happens, I DO agree with you in heart and spirit. We *do *need to make sure there is an avenue for boys to experience and be close to God in church. Why is it that the Evangelicals seem to understand this so much better than we do? Yes, children need to be taught; need to be shown; need to be guided on their journey in life. They need to have a playingfield wherein they can explore their future and the world around them. Did you read my exchange with archangel04 on this? Unfortunately this problem stems from a much larger one than the scapegoat that you are trying to make of the girls’ presence. The role of altar server is ingerently emasculated even without girls there: you wear a dress and you play with dishes. Come on. Is it any wonder that the boys don’t want to do it?
You are acting like: first there were girls, then the boys stopped participating. When in reality: first the boys stopped participating; then there were girls. If you didn’t witness this in your larger parishes directly, then you were not an administrator and you had a large pool of candidates to draw from. I’m getting this fact from people who were there in administrative roles; and people who were at small churches at the time. The overarching assumption is some kind of capitulation to “evil feminism” when it really was and is simply a matter of practicality.
Instead of pointing our fingers at the girls; let’s try to be productive and get to the root of the problem:
First, let’s make sure the servers and their parents are properly catechized as to why they are there and what their focus is and must be. This means that, among other things, let’s make sure there is not a culture of showmanship: do this by getting the parents more involved; if the parents participate in person, they do not feel as much need to live their lives through their child, and the pressure is off the child to “display” themselves as much.
Second let’s give the boys a reason to be there. Since this is not at all inherent in the duties performed, then make the job bigger; more important. Give them a manly reason to be there. Eliminating the presence of girls does in no way make wearing a dress and doing dishes “manly”. Try harder than that.
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waterbender
Guest
EXCERPTS FROM THE APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTIONS
**Sec. II - On Deacons and Deaconesses, the rest of the clergy **and on Baptism
Let not therefore either a bishop, or a presbyter, or a deacon, or any one else of the sacerdotal catalogue, defile his tongue with calumny, lest he inherit a curse instead of a blessing; and let it also be the bishop’s business and care that no lay person utter any curse: for he ought to take care of all,–of the clergy, of the virgins, of the widows, of the laity. For which reason, O bishop, do thou ordain thy fellow-workers, the laborers for life and for righteousness, such deacons as are pleasing to God, such whom thou provest to be worthy among all the people, and such as shall be ready for the necessities of their ministration.
**Ordain also a deaconess who is faithful and holy, for the ministrations towards women. For sometimes he cannot send a deacon, who is a man, to the women, on account of unbelievers. **Thou shalt therefore send a woman, a deaconess, on account of the imaginations of the bad. For we stand in need of a woman, a deaconess, for many necessities; and first in the baptism of women, the deacon shall anoint only their forehead with the holy oil, and after him the deaconess shall anoint them: (5) for there is no necessity that the women should be seen by the men; but only in the laying on of hands the bishop shall anoint her head, as the priests and kings were formerly anointed, not because those which are now baptized are ordained priests, but as being Christians, or anointed, from Christ the Anointed, “a royal priesthood, and an holy nation, the Church of God, the pillar and ground of the marriage-chamber,” (6) who formerly were not a people, but now are beloved and chosen, upon whom is called His new name? as Isaiah the prophet witnesses, saying: “And they shall Call the people by His new name, which the Lord shall name for them.”
womenpriests.org/deacons/deac_rec.asp
“Here are some deaconesses we know by name, often because of their connections with Church leaders. They represent thousands whose names remain hidden, like those of the ordinary priests and deacons.”
There’s your proof that Deaconesses were Ordained Clergy by Church Bishops!!!
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waterbender
Guest
More on Deaconesses (ordained women by Western Bishops):
"As for Ireland, whose ecclesiastical institutions (especialy liturgical) are in many respects very close to that of Gaul, we have the testimony of a gloss in the Epistolary of Wurzburg Universitätbibl. M. th. 12 (8th century) which mentions a deaconess (bandechuin in Gaelic); the Liber Angeli of the Book of Armagh (7th century), refers even to women in matrimonio legitimo ecclesiae servientes.
In Italy, where legislation did not oppose the female diaconate, a Roman liturgical book of the 8th century known as the Gregorian Sacramentary contains the sole surviving Western formulary for the ordination of a deaconess, simply reusing the formula for the ordination of a deacon but in the feminine (n·994)."
“shown in the Statuta Ecclesiae Antiqua, a canonical collection composed in Provence at the end of the 5th century. This document, which enjoyed a wide reception, states that instituted widows and voluntary virgins were entrusted with the ministry of preparing female catechumens for baptism: “Widows and nuns who are chosen to minister to women about to receive baptism, must be well prepared for this office, in order to be able to teach clearly and correctly unlearned and rustic women when they are to receive baptism; how those women ought to answer the questions asked by the one who baptises them, and how they should live after their baptism” (canon 100).”
By the 8th Century many Western Bishops preferred to cloister women and have them be cloistered virgins and religious vs. continuing the role of Deaconess to the public. In the East, Deaconesses remained much longer in the service of Bishops.
Please note, there is a DIFFERENCE in an ordained Deaconess (widow or virgin, annointed to ministry by a Bishop), and a Deaconise(? spelling) who is the wife of a Deacon. I have provided references to Deaconesses - ordained widows or virgins who’s ministries were to assist priests, most especially to assist priests in evangelization and catachesis for women in societies where the social norm is for women to be educated apart from men.
I hope that clarifies my earlier statement about Deaconesses in the Church, per your request.
"As for Ireland, whose ecclesiastical institutions (especialy liturgical) are in many respects very close to that of Gaul, we have the testimony of a gloss in the Epistolary of Wurzburg Universitätbibl. M. th. 12 (8th century) which mentions a deaconess (bandechuin in Gaelic); the Liber Angeli of the Book of Armagh (7th century), refers even to women in matrimonio legitimo ecclesiae servientes.
In Italy, where legislation did not oppose the female diaconate, a Roman liturgical book of the 8th century known as the Gregorian Sacramentary contains the sole surviving Western formulary for the ordination of a deaconess, simply reusing the formula for the ordination of a deacon but in the feminine (n·994)."
“shown in the Statuta Ecclesiae Antiqua, a canonical collection composed in Provence at the end of the 5th century. This document, which enjoyed a wide reception, states that instituted widows and voluntary virgins were entrusted with the ministry of preparing female catechumens for baptism: “Widows and nuns who are chosen to minister to women about to receive baptism, must be well prepared for this office, in order to be able to teach clearly and correctly unlearned and rustic women when they are to receive baptism; how those women ought to answer the questions asked by the one who baptises them, and how they should live after their baptism” (canon 100).”
By the 8th Century many Western Bishops preferred to cloister women and have them be cloistered virgins and religious vs. continuing the role of Deaconess to the public. In the East, Deaconesses remained much longer in the service of Bishops.
Please note, there is a DIFFERENCE in an ordained Deaconess (widow or virgin, annointed to ministry by a Bishop), and a Deaconise(? spelling) who is the wife of a Deacon. I have provided references to Deaconesses - ordained widows or virgins who’s ministries were to assist priests, most especially to assist priests in evangelization and catachesis for women in societies where the social norm is for women to be educated apart from men.
I hope that clarifies my earlier statement about Deaconesses in the Church, per your request.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
I agree…how people come to some of these conclusions is beyond me:shrug: When I was a young girl…(in the 70’s) there were no altar girls allowed…so according to that logic there should be a BIG boom in vocations right now…correct? Because all the boys who were serving should go on to become priests…or more easily discern their vocation…according to logic. And yet we know that has not happened.
BTW…I never minded not serving as an altar girl, but I don’t see anything wrong with it. Nor do I see anything wrong with woman serving as lectors or EMHC’s. BUT NO WOMEN DEACONS or PRIESTS!
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ProVobis
Guest
At one of the parishes in my area, the girl servers actually smile and greet everyone at the door. Now THAT makes me very uncomfortable. I don’t think I’d want my daughters to be doing that, if I had any daughters. We’re throwing around all these legalities around but it seems as if someone has to draw a line as to what constitutes Mass serving and what doesn’t.
By the way, it was the last time I visited THAT parish. The only OF parish I attend now (when I don’t attend the EF) has no altar servers and they do just fine.
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JHow
Guest
Right, but it doesn’t rule out causation either. Correlation can, in fact, be a big hint where to look for causation… you just need to look further.
Just to be clear, I have no brief on altar servers. I came to the church later in life, had no experience as a child with altar-serving, have seen the Church up close only in Poland and California. As a general principle, I do see value in boy-only programs (like Cub Scouts, or BSA) if your goal is form boys into men. If your goal is to just get a task done, then all-hands-on-deck will work fine.
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vsedriver
Guest
and how often is there NO FATHER in the home? Are sons quick to follow in a step father’s footsteps?
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
Heaven forbid we actually have any sense of welcome or community in the church.
Surely you must be joking… ?This whole debate is ridiculous. I work for my diocese and am an active volunteer in 2 different parishes. Women outnumber men in volunteer postions 3:1 because they are the ones willing to volunteer. I have never been given a difinitive answer by a man when asking him to volunteer for something, it is always, “Well, I guess so, so long as nothing comes up, I’ll let you know…” and then, in the end, I ususally have to scamble to find a “body” at all. Where as most of the women say “Oh, sure, I’ll put it on my calendar right now.”
Regarding NewstheMans comments about Africa, I have heard the same thing from some of the African prists here in my diocese. Many young men there are “pushed” into vocations because they (or their families) think it will be a “better life”. A priest friend once said the same thing about the pre-VII church, being a priest was not always a choice one made because he wanted to serve God, but it was a way to be comfortable and “taken care of”.
Bottom line-
parents, granparents, aunts, uncles, etc…
encourage your children to get involved, and do so by example, not just with words.
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laszlo
Guest
Correlation in itself does not mean causation, but in social science it is the only mean to analyze the causes. The facts that you have to consider are:
- 41 percent of Catholic families send their children to Catholic grade school. Only 48 percent of the priests to be ordained this year attended Catholic school
- 30% of the Catholic families send their boys to serve at the altar. 70% of the priests to be ordained in 2011 was altar boy.
What is your analysis?
I do not subscribe for the talk, that God calls every single candidate to the priesthood immediately unrelated to anything else. The vocation is th call of bishop before the ordination, to which the candidate answers: Here I am. (Adsum).
As for the parents responsibility who is altar bor or altar girl and what they do at the altar, parents are responsible. The enemy always wants to make believe, that the responsibility lays on others, but parents are responsible and their #1 responsibility is for their children.
One more thing. Only 23% of the candidates came from families with 1 or 2 children. 53 % of the candidates came from a family with 4 or more children. Less that 7 percent of the US families has 4 or more children.
This makes me agree with the comment of liza’s priest: 'If you are woman and want to serve God, go home, flush your contraceptive and make love to your husband. ’
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JHow
Guest
Okay. Here is the formula for increased male participation (in just about anything). I’ll warn you, some of you won’t like it.
Do the bolded part below…
Do the bolded part below…
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rben20
Guest
Posting Michael Voris is not a good idea even on a “Traditional” Catholicism page! People are way too sensitive here. My post on Voris talking about CITH back fired hard. That said…
I agree with Cardinal Arinze in that “it was a mistake” to allow women to take over the sanctuary (at my Church majority of lectors, EMHC, altar servers) but I do not believe the shortage has much to do with women serving at the altar. Even then men for whatever reason do not volunteer. I applaud women for stepping up and doing something for the Church.
As far as shortages, I think it has much more to do with the perception of the Priesthood more than anything. Men I know generally see the Priesthood as single men who couldn’t find a woman in life, homosexual, or cannot understand why anyone would give up sex for life. This perception wouldn’t help them in achieving “manhood” plus with all the abuse scandals, the Priesthood image is severely hurt. The weight of secular views also doesn’t help with society always pushing to be skeptic and asking why anyone would waste their life. The Priesthood is under attack daily.
I agree with Cardinal Arinze in that “it was a mistake” to allow women to take over the sanctuary (at my Church majority of lectors, EMHC, altar servers) but I do not believe the shortage has much to do with women serving at the altar. Even then men for whatever reason do not volunteer. I applaud women for stepping up and doing something for the Church.
As far as shortages, I think it has much more to do with the perception of the Priesthood more than anything. Men I know generally see the Priesthood as single men who couldn’t find a woman in life, homosexual, or cannot understand why anyone would give up sex for life. This perception wouldn’t help them in achieving “manhood” plus with all the abuse scandals, the Priesthood image is severely hurt. The weight of secular views also doesn’t help with society always pushing to be skeptic and asking why anyone would waste their life. The Priesthood is under attack daily.
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JHow
Guest
I don’t agree that this is the attitude of all men. Some priests do come off as wimpy or effete, but the pastor at my church (let’s call him “Father Dave”), to preserve his anonymity, is a real man, a real guy, dedicated to serving the church. He is not feminine, and most certainly would have been a good husband, father, businessman, or military officer if those had been his vocation.
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