Real Catholic TV on feminism in the Church

[TMC]

She was not a great teacher, warrior, academic or scholar. She did not die for her beliefs (as so many Christians did) nor did she is go out of her way to spread them like the apostles did. The Virgin Mary never held any position in the Church (at least before she died) and was not apparently capable of exerting control or influence her son’s followers.

All these are reasons Mary is a great role model for Christians. Mary teaches us that one need not be a great public figure to be a great person. That holding positions of authority doesn’t necessarily make one great (and, in fact, the opposite is often true). That “exerting control or influence” is not the goal of this life. That a mostly unremarkable and powerless person can live a relatively normal, simple life and by doing so serve God as fully and completely as any person that has ever lived – that is a remarkable and powerful message. Christianity is not (or, at least, should not be) about being the most powerful, the most influential or the most remarkable person - it is and should be about simply being a good person - the best person you can be. That is the message I get from Mary’s life.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

What are those (seriously)? .

Altar and rosary societies are women’s ministries where we seek to serve Christ by serving others. Members pray the rosary together or lead the rosary before mass, advocate for the spiritual welfare of the parish, and maintain the care of the altars, contribute to the financial support of the church and school, (this is where the bake sales and cookie sales come in or rummage sales) and encourage sociability. Many times, especially in the past, these were the women who were behind the scenes cooking all day and preparing meals for people after funerals. They are also the ones who keep the church clean or decorate the altar for mass.

I mentioned this because many people after a funeral go back to the church and have a meal and the women of the parish would always prepare it for the people and not too long ago someone close to me died and at this particular parish there weren’t any women who did this and in years past this was always a great ministry at this particular parish.
The parish I am at now the altar and rosary society is still flourishing but has fewer members.

Ezekiel 37:1-3
The hand of the LORD was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”
I said, “Sovereign LORD, you alone know.”
People, the Lord God has breathed on you and yet you sit and wait for others to do the work. What is going on? What do you expect?

How DARE you criticize those who are at least doing something … anything while you do … What, exactly?
oops - I’m very pregnant BTW and getting a little grumpy - guess I better leave it at this.

Peace all.

I totally understand Bible verse. I agree, totally. I was not criticizing anyone, especially women, since I am one. What I am saying is we all need to get involved and work in the church. That was my point, both men and women have roles to fill but we also need to pray that God would send up men to become priests and pray for boys who are willing to learn to be altar boys so that someday they might want to be priests.

Congratulations on your pregnancy.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I agree that it is a mistake to strip Mary of her humanity, in part because doing so renders her a less useful role model, but also because it does her a disservice to suggest that she led a good life only because she had supernatural backing that made her good life easier to accomplish. That said, I think you are misstating or over stating Catholic teaching about Mary:

The Church teaches this.

The Church teaches that Mary was without sin, but not that she was without temptation. Even Christ was tempted. What that means about Mary’s mental state and her internal sexual or other thoughts I don’t know. I do know that Mary was a human creature, so I assume (and believe) that her sinlessness was the result of her moral resolve and her good nature, and not because God magically removed all temptation from her.

You hear some Catholics say this, but I do not belive the Church teaches it and I have see no theological or rational reason it would be true.

I have not heard this one, but it seems even less supportable then the painless child-birth thing.

Mary was not a demi-God given the gift of an easy and virtuous life. To the extent you are suggesting that the attempts of some to paint her that way are counter-productive, I agree. Mary was a first century peasant girl who was pregnant out of wedlock and apparently widowed at a relatively young age. I believe that she had a hard but otherwise fairly normal life before her Son’s mission began, which was remarkable because of her virtue, hard work and kind heart, not because she was given a miraculously easy path to follow.

My primary source is the official Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) here are some relevant quotes from the section about the Virgin Mary:

When there is question of sin, Mary must always be excepted. [81] Mary’s complete exemption from actual sin is confirmed by the Council of Trent (Session VI, Canon 23): “If any one say that man once justified can during his whole life avoid all sins, even venial ones, as the Church holds that the Blessed Virgin did by special privilege of God, let him be anathema.” Theologians assert that Mary was impeccable, not by the essential perfection of her nature, but by a special Divine privilege. Moreover, the Fathers, at least since the fifth century, almost unanimously maintain that the Blessed Virgin never experienced the motions of **concupiscence. **

-Apparently the Church did/does believe that Mary had some sort of get out of sin free card from God, and that she was exempt from temptation (concupiscence is another word for desire).

Mary’s death was not necessarily the effect of violence; it was undergone neither as an expiation or penalty, nor as the effect of disease from which, like her Divine Son, she was exempt.

-The Virgin Mary was immune to disease. Reminds me of J.R. Tolkien’s elves more than real live peasants girls from the 1st century.

 

[PA650]

But why did they give up? Why didn’t they stay and fight? Isn’t that what men do?

The church has always been full of women. In the past, women hadmore opportunity to spend time in church–at daily Mass or at adoration. But, men were there on Sundays, their sons served, they belonged to groups like the Sacred Name Society, they went on pilgrimages. Now, you can hardly find enough men in some parishes to be ushers, let alone anything else. If that is because somewhere in the 1960s a nun in a business suit started coordinated liturgies, then men in general are bigger pansies then I could ever imagine.

Overall, the liberal clergy of the time implemented the destructive liberalism evident in the Church today. Is a simple lay man going to storm the Bishop’s residence or obediently accept the ‘renewal’ movement launched within the Church by the Second Vatican Council? Overall, when the sacred chant was replaced by folksy guitar music, the sanctuary profaned, and the presentation of an unchangeable faith altered within a short period of time with no correction to ever emerge, I don’t find it difficult for Catholic men to abandon an ever-changing, relative presentation of the faith. Lastly, could you imagine Saint Ignatius of Loyola in today’s Church or would he simply be a rigid, traditional Catholic unable to read the signs of the times and thus never would have been ordained a priest in the first place?

Its worth noting that the Church never ceased being extremely patriarchal.

After all, no women are part of the hierarchy.

Well, according to today’s political correct society it’s perceived as ‘extremely patriarchal.’ Yet, I’m unable to truthfully state that ‘another Christ,’ which a Latin Rite priest should be could ever be fulfilled by a women as a Catholic familiar with the theology of the priesthood. In the end, the Church doesn’t exist to mirror the recent social changes evident in Western society, but rather strives for the salvation of souls and serves a greater cause than implementing the liberal social justice movements of the recent second half of the 20th century to appease the misguided notions of secular society.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Overall, the liberal clergy of the time implemented the destructive liberalism evident in the Church today. Is a simple lay man going to storm the Bishop’s residence or obediently accept the ‘renewal’ movement launched within the Church by the Second Vatican Council? Overall, when the sacred chant was replaced by folksy guitar music, the sanctuary profaned, and the presentation of an unchangeable faith altered within a short period of time with no correction to ever emerge, I don’t find it difficult for Catholic men to abandon an ever-changing, relative presentation of the faith. Lastly, could you imagine Saint Ignatius of Loyola in today’s Church or would he simply be a rigid, traditional Catholic unable to read the signs of the times and thus never would have been ordained a priest in the first place? .

I imagine the men of the time (like everyone else) were so swept away by the secular changes (that started long before) that they weren’t really ready to be a bulwark against anything. However, there have been terrible social upheaveals before, and since Ignatius was something of a playboy before he converted, I’m holding out hope for our own latter-day Ignatius.

 

[PA650]

I imagine the men of the time (like everyone else) were so swept away by the secular changes (that started long before) that they weren’t really ready to be a bulwark against anything. However, there have been terrible social upheaveals before, and since Ignatius was something of a playboy before he converted, I’m holding out hope for our own latter-day Ignatius.

You’re certainly correct in many ways. On the other hand, the amount of modernism and liberalism that infects the Church today started long before the convening of the Second Vatican Council, albeit the reforms emerging from the council that affected the daily life of a simple Catholic layman started to raise some eyebrows. Also, a simple study of Church history shows the great distress Pope Pius XII had about the state of the Church and especially an increasingly atheistic Western society. Personally, I feel the recent council greatly destroyed the Church’s position against the modern atheistic societies it meant to combat and the smoke of Satan that entered the sanctuary as Pope Paul VI stated has helped to bring about the internal conflict found within the Church today.

 

[Baron_Korf]

The claim
(A), since 71% of ordained priests used to be altar boys therefore
(B) Being an altar boy makes one a priest.

Not what he said. He pointed out that aside from being Catholic, being an altar boy was the most common experience. One comment I was surprised he left off is that most of 71% first considered the priesthood or heard their call to the priesthood in the context of being an altar boy. I have heard this from multiple bishops, priests and seminarians. (I myself first considered it when I was an altar boy, though God did not call me to that life.)

If you think about it, it makes sense. It is similar to the master/apprentice system that was common till relatively recent times. Rather than just the hour a week from the pews that most would experience, these boys would invest more time and effort into the Mass and have to know it well to do their job. They have to show up early and leave late.

Since only men can be priests, it makes sense that we should reserve the apprenticeships for boys.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Altar and rosary societies …

Ah… Thank you for the clarification. We all kind of do all those things to more or less of a degree. I wonder where the name went. Maybe it never migrated out West, but I honestly don’t recall such things from churches back East. Perhaps you are extra blessed to have some retention of good tradition that was lost.

I mentioned this because many people after a funeral go back to the church and have a meal and the women of the parish would always prepare it for the people and not too long ago someone close to me died and at this particular parish there weren’t any women who did this and in years past this was always a great ministry at this particular parish.

That sounds awful. I can’t imagine not having that available.

The parish I am at now the altar and rosary society is still flourishing but has fewer members.

Is it possible the younger parishioners simply don’t know what they are?

I totally understand Bible verse. I agree, totally. I was not criticizing anyone, …

Oh dear, that rant was *NOT *directed at you at all. I’m very sorry it came across that way. It was directed at the ones who think that griping and pointing out problems w/o actually doing anything is somehow productive. Sooo: not you. (darn hormones)

 

[TMC]

My primary source is the official Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) here are some relevant quotes from the section about the Virgin Mary:

When there is question of sin, Mary must always be excepted. [81] Mary’s complete exemption from actual sin is confirmed by the Council of Trent (Session VI, Canon 23): “If any one say that man once justified can during his whole life avoid all sins, even venial ones, as the Church holds that the Blessed Virgin did by special privilege of God, let him be anathema.” Theologians assert that Mary was impeccable, not by the essential perfection of her nature, but by a special Divine privilege. Moreover, the Fathers, at least since the fifth century, almost unanimously maintain that the Blessed Virgin never experienced the motions of **concupiscence. **

-Apparently the Church did/does believe that Mary had some sort of get out of sin free card from God, and that she was exempt from temptation (concupiscence is another word for desire).

Mary’s death was not necessarily the effect of violence; it was undergone neither as an expiation or penalty, nor as the effect of disease from which, like her Divine Son, she was exempt.

-The Virgin Mary was immune to disease. Reminds me of J.R. Tolkien’s elves more than real live peasants girls from the 1st century.

The Catholic Encyclopedia is an OK resource, but there is nothing official about it. The Church does not teach that Mary was never tempted or that Mary was immune to disease. If all you want to do is ridicule Catholics, you can certainly dig out the most extreme things that any Catholic has ever asserted about Mary and make fun of them. As you can see, there are some here that are happy to play that game with you. I am sure that your co-religionists have from time to time had extreme things to say about the figures they revere, and that a sharp-witted Catholic could pass the time making fun of them. If you decide you want to have a serious conversation about Mary or Catholicism, we could do that also.

 

[archangel04]

The Catholic Encyclopedia is an OK resource, but there is nothing official about it. The Church does not teach that Mary was never tempted or that Mary was immune to disease. If all you want to do is ridicule Catholics, you can certainly dig out the most extreme things that any Catholic has ever asserted about Mary and make fun of them. As you can see, there are some here that are happy to play that game with you. I am sure that your co-religionists have from time to time had extreme things to say about the figures they revere, and that a sharp-witted Catholic could pass the time making fun of them. If you decide you want to have a serious conversation about Mary or Catholicism, we could do that also.

Bravo!!

 

[InspiritCarol]

Not what he said. He pointed out that aside from being Catholic, being an altar boy was the most common experience. One comment I was surprised he left off is that most of 71% first considered the priesthood or heard their call to the priesthood in the context of being an altar boy. I have heard this from multiple bishops, priests and seminarians. (I myself first considered it when I was an altar boy, though God did not call me to that life.)

~sigh of relief~

Finally, *someone *able to speak logically about this. (no offense laszlo - your kind of logic, though clearly from an educated perspective, is simply not something I could relate to - )

Yes, that comment, left unsaid, *is *critical. It actually says something as opposed to the rest.

Here, I’ll “fix” my previously oversimplified statement:

A) "aside from being Catholic, being an altar boy was the ‘most common experience’ " (I seriously doubt this BTW).
B) The “most common experience” leads to the most desired results (Post Hoc)
Now here’s the Intuitive Leap that would make Superman jealous:
THEREFORE
C) The presence of girls keep one from being a priest.
uch:

If you think about it, it makes sense. It is similar to the master/apprentice system that was common till relatively recent times. Rather than just the hour a week from the pews that most would experience, these boys would invest more time and effort into the Mass and have to know it well to do their job. They have to show up early and leave late.

Since only men can be priests, it makes sense that we should reserve the apprenticeships for boys.

In a better world your argument would be wonderfully compelling. – And it’s still not without merit.
The big problems are these:
-Proper catechesis aside, having the servers (boys or girls) just show up at all, is very problematic; especially in smaller parishes.
-“being an altar boy was the most common experience” based on what charged, questions? Perhaps they all had priests close to their families, but the question was never asked. Did you see the list of questions asked to ascertain commonality? Was it only 2?
Given the proper questions, I would expect I could come up with a much more extensive list of near total commonalities; like “prayer at home”; “both mother and father at home”; “weekly Mass attendance”; “mother and father who are both active in the Church”; “read the Bible at home growing up”; I could go on all day with these very relevant much more important; and overall much more actionable sources for inspiration to the role of Priest. Honestly, this “story” is merely someone with an agenda trying to incite the masses.

-Why did the master/apprentice system go away? IDK. Is there an inherent problem with it?

There are several more problems I could see, but; I really don’t like to continue dwelling in the negative.

MtnDwellar makes the correct observation: it comes down to the actions of the parents and the model *they *present.

 

[MontChevalier]

Hail,

I remember another thread around here touching this exact same thing. I would have to agree with Vortex. Girls are becoming a problem at the altar, I just wish His Holiness, Pope John Paul II had realized this in his time.

Perhaps he was just thinking of the times and how they were changing. Unfortunately, the church’s position after Vatican II has taken a few severe blows. I just wish they would reconsider Vatican II and see how the changes made haven’t exactly made things better. I want to hear the good Catholic music, not “Amazing Grace” protestant stuff (No offense Prostesties), and I would not want to see my son next to an altar girl. I would leave and find another church (Once again, no offense).

Personally, I’ve been offended all my life for being a man, and I’m actually starting to feel like stopping to say “No offense”. (This is not a joke)

-MontChevalier

 

[InquisitorMax]

If girls are involved, boys don’t want to be. If it’s men-only and they’re doing something technical, with status, you can get boys involved.

Catholics are having fewer children, thanks to careers and contraception. Also, the new rite has attracted a kind of sentimentality that I think is offputting to boys. Add in whispering girls
in the sacristy and I’d guess it’s like garlic to a vampire. “Non serviam!” says little Peter, embarassed.

And you can say “Well, they should jolly well do it!”. Yeah, well, I say, good luck with that. I guess they’d just find a way to wiggle out of it, even if you forced them. Your heart has to be in it.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

As I understand it, sin is defined (according to Catholics at least) as disobedience to God in thought, deed, or emotion. Simply having bad thoughts (especially lustful ones) is a sin in of itself.

Therefore, a truly sinless person would be incapable of thinking, feeling, or acting except in a certain (Godly) way. Its debatable whether such a creature would be a person at all. They would certainly not have feel will in any meaningful way.

Moreover, just from a literary point of view (the Bible is one of the most widely read books in history) the (Catholic) Virgin Mary is not very impressive.

She was not a great teacher, warrior, academic or scholar. She did not die for her beliefs (as so many Christians did) nor did she is go out of her way to spread them like the apostles did. The Virgin Mary never held any position in the Church (at least before she died) and was not apparently capable of exerting control or influence her son’s followers.

Mary only becomes powerful and influential (assuming you take the Marian doctrines at face value) after she dies. And then only because her Son loves her the most.

As a woman and a mother these are some of the reasons I look to Mary as a model woman ; one she was a woman who obeyed the Lord and went visiting a family member in need. Women can learn from her to be selfless and care for others. There are many people in the world needing care and friendship. Families should help each other out more. Today families are so far apart many hardly see each other anymore.

She followed the laws of her faith when taking Jesus to the temple. We could all learn to be obedient to God, our faith and the ways of the Church.

She followed her husband to where he was led so they could protect their son. In this world mothers have alot of worries and concerns about their children. She and Joseph ran for their lives to keep their son from being killed. Moms run many ways today to protect the lives and souls of their children. Mary can be the example to us that we should be protecting and caring for our children from the evils of this world and listening to God’s guidance as we do.

Another way I look to Mary is how she instructed the servers at the wedding of Cana tolook to Jesus and that can remind us to do the same thing. Even at her apparitions she instructs us as our mother to look to Jesus, to turn back to God. She, also, stood by his side when he was suffering and dying. When my son and husband are going through struggles in life I am reminded by her example to pray and stand by them and encourage them. I ask her to pray for us to help us to get through and I look to her.

For a mom there are so many worries and anxieties we go through for our children and our husbands, the best person I could ever think to learn from would be Mary because of her total trust in God.

Yes, she was full of grace. She did have something special given to her that no other woman ever had. She was the most blessed woman ever and she will always be the best woman ever to look to for example. It is because of her sinlessness that makes her the best example. She lived for God. Something we all should do. She did it right.

Her life was not an easy one and neither is ours but by following her example women can learn how to trust and obey and raise their families and love our husbands and live for God.

She is our Mother and she would love for you to come to her, also. I know of people, including myself, that have found the problems in their lives turn around by praying the rosary every day. She has brought many answers to prayers for me. Call upon her as your mother also and see what happens. I’m sure you will be glad you did.

 

[Baron_Korf]

-Proper catechesis aside, having the servers (boys or girls) just show up at all, is very problematic; especially in smaller parishes.

Never was a problem for the small parish I grew up in. That was because my dad considered it to be a requirement for me and my brothers. The other guy’s dad’s did the same thing. It was both a privilege and a responsibility. It wasn’t presented as “Does little Johnny want to help?” it was “We need help, can Johnny do it?” Some might not see a big difference in those two statements, but they mean very different things.

I don’t Michael was intending his statement to be subject to the rigors of statistical analysis. While some of it was glazed over, I defend his assertion because I have heard it from other channels as well where the question was put to clerics and seminarians about what experiences had a positive influence on them in regards to becoming a priest, and the connection with serving at the altar was one of the most common responses. Again not statistically rigorous, but it is something that sticks in the minds of the priests themselves.

Girls do drive the boys away from things like this. I remember when our pastor (from the parish previously mentioned) asked us if we wanted altar girls and all of us gave an emphatic no. This was our turf, our responsibility, and we didn’t want to share it. There isn’t the same camaraderie between the sexes as their is between men of any age (I’m sure the inverse works too but I’m not a woman so I won’t speak for them), and that is part of the appeal to the boys and young men. The point is we are trying to train up little priests (“little cleric” is the Italian name for altar boys), and so we give them all the attention in this regard.

 

[bkovacs]

youtu.be/QmNBKwwBon0

 

[corsair]

I subscribe as a Premium member. Yeah, I liked this one.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

The Catholic Encyclopedia is an OK resource, but there is nothing official about it. The Church does not teach that Mary was never tempted or that Mary was immune to disease. If all you want to do is ridicule Catholics, you can certainly dig out the most extreme things that any Catholic has ever asserted about Mary and make fun of them. As you can see, there are some here that are happy to play that game with you. I am sure that your co-religionists have from time to time had extreme things to say about the figures they revere, and that a sharp-witted Catholic could pass the time making fun of them. If you decide you want to have a serious conversation about Mary or Catholicism, we could do that also.

I have no co-religionists.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

As a woman and a mother these are some of the reasons I look to Mary as a model woman ; one she was a woman who obeyed the Lord and went visiting a family member in need. Women can learn from her to be selfless and care for others. There are many people in the world needing care and friendship. Families should help each other out more. Today families are so far apart many hardly see each other anymore.

She followed the laws of her faith when taking Jesus to the temple. We could all learn to be obedient to God, our faith and the ways of the Church.

She followed her husband to where he was led so they could protect their son. In this world mothers have alot of worries and concerns about their children. She and Joseph ran for their lives to keep their son from being killed. Moms run many ways today to protect the lives and souls of their children. Mary can be the example to us that we should be protecting and caring for our children from the evils of this world and listening to God’s guidance as we do.

Another way I look to Mary is how she instructed the servers at the wedding of Cana tolook to Jesus and that can remind us to do the same thing. Even at her apparitions she instructs us as our mother to look to Jesus, to turn back to God. She, also, stood by his side when he was suffering and dying. When my son and husband are going through struggles in life I am reminded by her example to pray and stand by them and encourage them. I ask her to pray for us to help us to get through and I look to her.

For a mom there are so many worries and anxieties we go through for our children and our husbands, the best person I could ever think to learn from would be Mary because of her total trust in God.

Yes, she was full of grace. She did have something special given to her that no other woman ever had. She was the most blessed woman ever and she will always be the best woman ever to look to for example. It is because of her sinlessness that makes her the best example. She lived for God. Something we all should do. She did it right.

Her life was not an easy one and neither is ours but by following her example women can learn how to trust and obey and raise their families and love our husbands and live for God.

She is our Mother and she would love for you to come to her, also. I know of people, including myself, that have found the problems in their lives turn around by praying the rosary every day. She has brought many answers to prayers for me. Call upon her as your mother also and see what happens. I’m sure you will be glad you did.

So the best kind of woman has no desires, pride, will or interests of her own?

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

So the best kind of woman has no desires, pride, will or interests of her own?

Her desire is to do the will of God because she loves Him. Her pride is in the gifts she has received from God because that is where all good things come from.
Her interests are interests that God leads her to as she listens to his voice in her heart and she finds great fullfillment in following those interests.
He makes His wants her wants and she is very happy and content in following Him because God is where all happiness lies.