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ProVobis
Guest
So attack the messenger?
- Status
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ProVobis
Guest
Okay, so what does the Pope say?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=302896
Also an interesting read.
totustuus.com/girlservers.htm
An excerpt:
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Pope Benedict the XIV was pope from August 1740 to 3 May 1758.
And this is SPECIFICALLY about women priests.
Nonetheless "A female person may not minister. An exception is permitted only when no male person is available and if a just cause is present. The female person may not, however, approach the altar under any circumstances, and may only respond from afar’. (Canon 813/2). "
is EXACTLY how I have seen this executed to the letter.
As for the rest: we have them; it is clearly allowed; and the more you say “women are the source of harm”, in these and other matters instead of looking for a real cause; the more harm you and the Michael Voris’ of the world do towards actually helping the situation.
Throwing mud does not produce solutions.
Let’s think about this, because, ProVobis, I believe you are sincere in wanting this vocational problem fixed (as are we all).
Say you throw out all of the girl altar servers right now. This Sunday. What then?
No servers?
Will the boys then magically start serving again?
Do you really think they stopped because girls started?
I reiterate: FIRST there were not enough boys → THEN girls were allowed VERY reluctantly. As I was growing up, when the Bishop visited, there was always a tremendous scramble to find only boy altar servers for his Mass. (At his demand). It was an awful headache for the coordinator. The boys were too busy with sports. I love sports, but they became a Sunday routine and this has only worsened. Girls are playing more sports now too so we don’t have any servers on Sundays sometimes.
Think a little deeper.
You’ve thrown out the girls who were piously (many at least were) serving the Mass. What have you just *done *to them?
They are young and impressionable too.
All these future mothers of Priests have just been told that their very presence in some small form or function at Mass has somehow *defiled *God. THINK what you are suggesting. Do you honestly think these girls are going to “get over it”; or the rest of the congregation recover for that matter; that saw only selfless sacrifice from the girls when no-one else was there to do the job?
I’m all for tough love and taking a stand for what’s right when it’s right, but my friend, what you are suggesting is not remotely right. There is a big leap from Cardinal Arinzes “should not have been” statement to “should now eliminate”. Even he is reluctant to put it in those very hurtful terms; and friend, if this tough-as-nails, no-holds-barred Cardinal is reluctant to go there; then maybe caution should be exercised by the rest of us as well.
-Carol
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Neatly taken out of context. This kind of argument serves no purpose except to assuage the egos of those who want only to do harm. I would have thought it beneath you. Especially since you, yourself gave the answer to this in your other reference.
"The decision came in the form of a circular letter[7] from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to presidents of episcopal conferences on 15 March 1994, which announced a 30 June 1992 authentic interpretation (confirmed on 11 July 1992 by Pope John Paul II) from the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts. This authentic interpretation said that canon 230 §2 states that service at the altar is one of the liturgical functions that can be performed by both lay men and women. The circular letter, written by the cardinal-prefect of the Congregation, also clarified that canon 230 §2 has a permissive and not a preceptive character, that is, it allows, but does not require, the use of female altar servers. Thus it was for each diocesan bishop to decide whether to allow them in his diocese. "
You know, this is the nice thing about being Catholic. We do not have to make these tough calls. If/when the Bishop calls for the elimination of girl altar servers, I will do my best to scramble for a way to hold their self-esteem together while *at the same time *quelling any opposition and grumbling heard from the congregation. I would give God that courtesy because his Body deserves to be lifted up, not degraded and mocked.
-Never let that come from me Lord, I pray you.-
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Ruth_Catherine
Guest
After reading your post here it made me think, it is not that the boys are gone somewhere. They are sitting in church, still. They are at mass on Sundays, the same as the girls or at least they should be, otherwise they are neglecting their Sunday obligation and then we have to ask the parents why are you children not here.
So,why are we waiting for them to come up. Why not go ask them. When at our parish Sunday mass is very full and father doesn’t have enough eucharistic ministers he will ask for someone. Why not go up to a boy and say, “would you like to come and serve today. I need someone.” They may say no but they might say “yes” and then the girls will not need to volunteer because we will have boys. Yes, you are right, boys are busy with sports but perhaps they need more invitations from the priest and encouragement from their parents.
Saying there aren’t any boys around is wrong. They are there. They need asked. They need catechised. It should be part of every Catholic boys religious education to learn how to serve and then when asked he can get up and go.
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Daizies
Guest
So, I didn’t watch the video. But I just wanted to share my thoughts on the subject. I’m a convert, just joined the Church on Easter Vigil this year. Now, the very first time I went to Mass I was not too sure on what to expect. I knew that all Priests are men, and I had heard of alter boys, though I had no idea what precisely they did. (I still don’t know what Novus Ordo, EF, and OF mean). But I have to say that in my very first time at Mass, I was shocked at seeing female alter servers. It just seemed so out of step with everything that I had heard about the Catholic Church. Now with time, I learned why things were this way, but had I been more conservative minded, and less attached to the Church’s teaching on the Eucharist, I may have moved on rather than finding a new parish (that only has female alter servers at a couple of Masses per week, and NEVER a mass where the Archbishop is presiding). Now these are my own personal thoughts mind you, but there is is.
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Well, great. You are absolutely right about asking. Alas, I wish you were right about the physical presence of boys or most any youth at Mass these days. Out here in the God-less Pacific NW - we have a slightly different picture. Thanks for sharing. This underscores the reason we don’t/can’t “call the shots”. We don’t have the capacity to see the big picture nor do we have the level of contemplative prayerfulness that we expect from our Bishops and clergy. Now that I think about it, though, even in my various churches back East while growing up, this was the case: viri de nada.
(BTW - ProVobis - I am reading your suggested book regarding the feminization of Christianity - there are a few good points, so far, but there are many issues as well. I’ll start a new thread when I get a grasp of it and let you know (If you want)).
Definitely, people, please do ask your youth to be involved in EVERY aspect of your church. Invite them and make ways for them to feel not just welcome, but WANTED.
:yup:
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Kit15
Guest
Actually at the particular Mass my family attended you saw my sisters and I up on the altar every week.
Reason being because we were pretty much the only children at that Mass at all. Only my mom and another parent (whose children were not servers) regularly went to the 7:30am Mass. For the most part everyone else was childless or their children were grown and moved out.
No one wanted to serve it. After the server schedule was released, we’d have everyone call us wanting to trade their 7:30’s for our more “reasonable” hour Masses because we regularly went to that one anyway. The result? The same 2-3 girls serving every week…and eventually a boy was finally thrown in when our only brother was old enough. At the later Masses you saw greater variety.
Reason being because we were pretty much the only children at that Mass at all. Only my mom and another parent (whose children were not servers) regularly went to the 7:30am Mass. For the most part everyone else was childless or their children were grown and moved out.
No one wanted to serve it. After the server schedule was released, we’d have everyone call us wanting to trade their 7:30’s for our more “reasonable” hour Masses because we regularly went to that one anyway. The result? The same 2-3 girls serving every week…and eventually a boy was finally thrown in when our only brother was old enough. At the later Masses you saw greater variety.
Heh…one minute the priests are referring to you and your sisters as “The A Team” because we were reliable and did a good job…the next you’re a defilement (or it’s suddenly revealed that your presence was always a defilement). Even at age 27, that would not be a particularly easy thing to accept.
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Ruth_Catherine
Guest
Maybe it is just my area that has boys. I see them at mass. I see them in our catholic schools. I see catholic moms having boys and bringing them to mass. there are alot of youth and it is that way at most of the parishes nearby. I see alot of youth at mass during the week. Most of the altar boys around here are between 4-7th grade so they are usually with their parents on Sundays. If sports is the reason, maybe we shouldn’t be doing sports on Sundays, especiallyl if you go to a catholic school. That school should not be having sports that day.Well, great. You are absolutely right about asking. Alas, I wish you were right about the physical presence of boys or most any youth at Mass these days. Out here in the God-less Pacific NW - we have a slightly different picture. Thanks for sharing. This underscores the reason we don’t/can’t “call the shots”. We don’t have the capacity to see the big picture nor do we have the level of contemplative prayerfulness that we expect from our Bishops and clergy. Now that I think about it, though, even in my various churches back East while growing up, this was the case: viri de nada.
Definitely, people, please do ask your youth to be involved in EVERY aspect of your church. Invite them and make ways for them to feel not just welcome, but WANTED.
Unfortunately despite seeing all these boys, there are not many serving. Some but not many.
I am very sorry things aren’t that way in your area. Prayerfully, things will change.
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Aizi
Guest
We never had a hard time finding servers for Mass. Our Church had 3 services a week, 5 servers a Mass, and it was considered poor form if you signed up for multiple masses at once…you had to sign up…wait a week…then go back and see if there were any more mass slots left and then if there was you sign up for another one. And it was very much about half boys, I never served with all girls.
Maybe its because I live in Michigan…its too cold for sports most of the year!
But seriously I think I think you need to have parents which encourage it, and the program was promoted a lot in the Church Bulletin. Not to mention if you are in church you can see the altar servers every week. For me, I wanted to sign up to be an altar girl as soon as I could. I don’t even remember how I started to feel that way, it was too long ago. I think most boys destined for the priesthood would agree. :yup:
I think most bishops would agree since after all it is allowed most everywhere…
Maybe its because I live in Michigan…its too cold for sports most of the year!
But seriously I think I think you need to have parents which encourage it, and the program was promoted a lot in the Church Bulletin. Not to mention if you are in church you can see the altar servers every week. For me, I wanted to sign up to be an altar girl as soon as I could. I don’t even remember how I started to feel that way, it was too long ago. I think most boys destined for the priesthood would agree. :yup:
No you don’t NEED to serve to show love for God and the Mass…but people here who say “oh a boy won’t serve if he sees girls serving, and then God won’t call him to the Priesthood”…well I disagree obviously! Fear of cooties is nothing before the call of God!
I think most bishops would agree since after all it is allowed most everywhere…
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ProVobis
Guest
But how can you disagree being that you’re not in a position to know what really motivates someone to the priesthood? In fact, even as a male, I don’t know what motivates others to become priests. Each one has a different reason, I would think. The OP’s video shows some limited statistics on the matter; perhaps we need more analysis before we can conclude that banning female altar servers (again!) will lead to more priests. Is that fair?No you don’t NEED to serve to show love for God and the Mass…but people here who say “oh a boy won’t serve if he sees girls serving, and then God won’t call him to the Priesthood”…well I disagree obviously! Fear of cooties is nothing before the call of God!
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Aizi
Guest
lol, I suppose that is true. I hear a call to a religious life, and for me its so strong I can’t imagine it to be foiled by cooties. But you are right…I have no way of knowing, and I am sure for every person it is their own unique reason. Perhaps that if it is a real reason why vocations are down is not because of secular society trashing a celibate life or less kids/household…but because girls are helping to serve during Mass. If that is the case, maybe we should try the “circle circle dot dot” method before we try to ban girls…always worked for kickball.
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TrueLight
Guest
Today I went to mass at a parish I had never been to before, and when it came time for communion, I saw the priest first serve three women who were on the pulpit (I don’t know what to call the elevated platform where the table is). Then he and the three women went down the stairs and gave the body and blood to the congregation.
Are the women what would be called eucharistic ministers? Is it okay for women to serve communion?
Are the women what would be called eucharistic ministers? Is it okay for women to serve communion?
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InspiritCarol
Guest
Yes. This is fairly common. There are many threads on this in that there are specific ruberics to follow, etc.
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TrueLight
Guest
Okay. Thanks.
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Phemie
Guest
In our parish, if Fr. was doing the training (which he doesn’t feel is his to do, he feels that the community should take responsibility for everything but the sacraments) we wouldn’t get anyone – if there aren’t 2 women at least, parents won’t send their kids.
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Phemie
Guest
She was pushy enough to coerce her son to perform his first miracle.
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JReducation
Guest
I prefer altar boys, but I think that being Jewish may have something to do with that. I grew up in a male dominated faith tradition. Females have very few roles in Judaism. Some very very Reformed Jews now have female Rabbis. They’re not very common. Most Jews don’t buy it. My point is that a lot has to do with what one has experienced. I always saw males leading worship, both as a Jew and later when I became a Catholic, many many years ago. Some of you were not born yet.
However, I’m not so convinced that the exposure to priests is always going to trigger priestly vocations. I wanted to be a priest. However, after making final vows, my superior said that it was Christ’s will that I go to study more theology and dedicate my life to educating priests. I became a seminary professor for many years.
As a kid I was exposed to friars. As you all know, about 40% of all friars are both: priest and brother. He’s called a friar-priest or a clerical-brother. However, among friars the lines between the ordained and the non ordained are deliberately blurred. Priests have no special place among friars. They don’t wear distinct clothing. They don’t have special privileges. They don’t do anything different from other friars. They celebrate mass and administer the sacraments. That’s not something they do 24/7. They are loved and respected, but they are not singled out. Finally, they don’t become priests of their own will. They ask for Holy Orders, but it’s up to their superior to decide if they can be ordained. Men who enter an order of friars know this upon entering, with the exception of the Dominican Friars who are an order for priests. If you enter the Dominicans, it’s understood that you’re going to be either a priest or a collaborator brother, I believe is the title.
My point is that what attracted me about the friar-priests to whom I was exposed was not the fact that they were priests. I saw them celebrate mass and went to confession to them too. I was fascinated by their spirit. So, I kept a close watch on them. As I became more courageous I began to ask questions about their spirit and their daily life. I fell in love with the charism of the Franciscan family. From there, I had to decide which branch of the Franciscan family I wanted to join. Every branch follows the same rule, but the work and some details vary from one group to another.
As I went through formation, I found that our guys had been attracted to the Franciscan charism, not to the priesthood. Even those who became priests did so because it was a call within a call. Their first love was to be a friar. I know that Jesuits become Jebbies, because they fall in love with the Jesuit charism. Carmelites fall in love with Carmel and so forth. I think it’s over simplified to believe that a boy who is exposed to a priest will become a priest. He may. He may also become a religious and never become a priest or he may become both, a religious and a priest.
I help out in a parish. It’s run by diocesan priests. There are six Franciscan brothers who serve there. So far the score is: Brothers 5 and Priests 0. We have five men at different levels of formation from that parish. The parish has never produced a priest in 25-years. They have five very holy secular priests on their staff.
Will any of these five brothers be ordained? I doubt it. We don’t need priests right now. We have enough to meet our needs. I can’t say for sure. It’s up to God. We ordain according to the needs of the community. These five guys were all servers. However, none of the brothers who serve in that parish are priests. Being altar servers had little influence on their desire to enter a fraternal order. The guys say that the ticket was the fact that the friars were very interesting.
Our brothers wear a very interesting habit. We live a very different way of life from that of a priest. Our work is non traditional. Most of us work in outreach with the homeless, the immigrant, the mom and dad in crisis pregnancy, the troubled youth, the sick and the dying. We also hang out together a lot. There are usually two of us where ever we go. We don’t live in rectories or monasteries. We live in real houses among the poor. We take buses and walk a lot. These things attracted these guys. They attracted me too.
I don’t know about this servers are more likely to become priests. That has not been the experience in our community. We have had many men who were servers, but most of our men came from the professional world and at some point they saw a friar in person or on TV and they became curious. These guys are older, usually in their 30s. The same is happening to other Franciscan communities: Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word, Franciscans of the Renewal, Capuchin Franciscans, Conventual Franciscans, Observant Franciscans. The attraction is not the priest at the altar. The attraction is the uniqueness of the life of these friars. I don’t think that the presence of girls on sanctuary had any impact on these guys one way or another. That priest is usually a diocesan priest and that’s not where they 're They are going to religious orders that are very different from the typical parish priest.
I think there is more to it than just being a server. There is something about the world in which we live that distracts from the call.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
However, I’m not so convinced that the exposure to priests is always going to trigger priestly vocations. I wanted to be a priest. However, after making final vows, my superior said that it was Christ’s will that I go to study more theology and dedicate my life to educating priests. I became a seminary professor for many years.
As a kid I was exposed to friars. As you all know, about 40% of all friars are both: priest and brother. He’s called a friar-priest or a clerical-brother. However, among friars the lines between the ordained and the non ordained are deliberately blurred. Priests have no special place among friars. They don’t wear distinct clothing. They don’t have special privileges. They don’t do anything different from other friars. They celebrate mass and administer the sacraments. That’s not something they do 24/7. They are loved and respected, but they are not singled out. Finally, they don’t become priests of their own will. They ask for Holy Orders, but it’s up to their superior to decide if they can be ordained. Men who enter an order of friars know this upon entering, with the exception of the Dominican Friars who are an order for priests. If you enter the Dominicans, it’s understood that you’re going to be either a priest or a collaborator brother, I believe is the title.
My point is that what attracted me about the friar-priests to whom I was exposed was not the fact that they were priests. I saw them celebrate mass and went to confession to them too. I was fascinated by their spirit. So, I kept a close watch on them. As I became more courageous I began to ask questions about their spirit and their daily life. I fell in love with the charism of the Franciscan family. From there, I had to decide which branch of the Franciscan family I wanted to join. Every branch follows the same rule, but the work and some details vary from one group to another.
As I went through formation, I found that our guys had been attracted to the Franciscan charism, not to the priesthood. Even those who became priests did so because it was a call within a call. Their first love was to be a friar. I know that Jesuits become Jebbies, because they fall in love with the Jesuit charism. Carmelites fall in love with Carmel and so forth. I think it’s over simplified to believe that a boy who is exposed to a priest will become a priest. He may. He may also become a religious and never become a priest or he may become both, a religious and a priest.
I help out in a parish. It’s run by diocesan priests. There are six Franciscan brothers who serve there. So far the score is: Brothers 5 and Priests 0. We have five men at different levels of formation from that parish. The parish has never produced a priest in 25-years. They have five very holy secular priests on their staff.
Will any of these five brothers be ordained? I doubt it. We don’t need priests right now. We have enough to meet our needs. I can’t say for sure. It’s up to God. We ordain according to the needs of the community. These five guys were all servers. However, none of the brothers who serve in that parish are priests. Being altar servers had little influence on their desire to enter a fraternal order. The guys say that the ticket was the fact that the friars were very interesting.
Our brothers wear a very interesting habit. We live a very different way of life from that of a priest. Our work is non traditional. Most of us work in outreach with the homeless, the immigrant, the mom and dad in crisis pregnancy, the troubled youth, the sick and the dying. We also hang out together a lot. There are usually two of us where ever we go. We don’t live in rectories or monasteries. We live in real houses among the poor. We take buses and walk a lot. These things attracted these guys. They attracted me too.
I don’t know about this servers are more likely to become priests. That has not been the experience in our community. We have had many men who were servers, but most of our men came from the professional world and at some point they saw a friar in person or on TV and they became curious. These guys are older, usually in their 30s. The same is happening to other Franciscan communities: Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word, Franciscans of the Renewal, Capuchin Franciscans, Conventual Franciscans, Observant Franciscans. The attraction is not the priest at the altar. The attraction is the uniqueness of the life of these friars. I don’t think that the presence of girls on sanctuary had any impact on these guys one way or another. That priest is usually a diocesan priest and that’s not where they 're They are going to religious orders that are very different from the typical parish priest.
I think there is more to it than just being a server. There is something about the world in which we live that distracts from the call.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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PA650
Guest
In a slight continuation of this topic, RealCatholic TV’s The Vortex has released a video regarding young men and the faith:
youtube.com/watch?v=QmNBKwwBon0&feature=youtu.be
As a young adult male, I can only concur with Mr. Voris’s assessment.
youtube.com/watch?v=QmNBKwwBon0&feature=youtu.be
As a young adult male, I can only concur with Mr. Voris’s assessment.
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Baron_Korf
Guest
Obviously you only do that once you have a replacement in mind. “Throwing out” is hardly the term to be used.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner! The family has prioritized sports over an obligation at the altar. Of course seeing this an obligation that Catholic boys must fulfill has been lost, in part by the fact that girls are now permitted to take up the slack. Think about it this way. If there are no servers at the altar, but abled bodied young men in the pews (or full grown ones for that matter), there should be an enormous sense of guilt on their part for not doing their part. This is where the pastor and parishioners come in to play. If you see a lack of servers, ask the family with 3 strapping boys if they could help since it is obviously needed. If there are no men at all, adults can and do often serve at the altar, then you could have the women fill in, but I have never seen an all woman parish.
FALSE DICHOTOMY AHOY! With a little of drama and exaggeration sprinkled on the side. I know some pastors are dumb enough to let it go down like that, but seriously now, defiling the mass? That’s the only explanation for why the tradition for centuries has been to reserve service at the altar to young men? Come on now, you can do better than this. Explain the tradition, tell them they did a good job, throw them a thank you dinner, find ways for them to help. To answer this is in a simpler fashion, don’t be rude.
Catholicism has always had a feminine character to it. The ancient world referred to it as a woman’s religion since it was so preferential to them and because it shared a compassion for the poor, sick, and outcast. Take the imagery used, The Bride of Christ, Holy Mother Church, etc. On top of that, in the West especially, religion is seen as the domain of women and old folk. The men are stereotypically left trying to get out of anything Church related. If you make it so we can be replaced by women, most of us will let you do that. But it you leave it as a man’s responsibility, we are the only ones to blame when it doesn’t get done.
If you make men, (young, old and in between) necessary, we will come. If you make us optional, we won’t.
- Status