Real Catholic TV on feminism in the Church

[Maxirad]

Well, there certainly have been altar girls in my parish. Just ask my older sister, who supposedly was the first altar girl in my parish’s history.

BTW, check out the following link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_altar_servers

 

[InspiritCarol]

Mr. Korf, I’m going to ignore your inflammatory speech and direct my remarks to specific points which are worth being addressed.

Explain the tradition, tell them they did a good job, throw them a thank you dinner, find ways for them to help. To answer this is in a simpler fashion, don’t be rude.

Really? You think there is anything you could do to make this kind of transition feel good? A thank you dinner will taste like ashes, I guarantee. I pray that you have wisdom from others if you are ever placed in a pastoral role. NO. The onus is on the pastor to create a new, equally or more functional role for them. This should be done in the case of any volunteer whose job does not fit their abilities.

Catholicism has always had a feminine character to it. The ancient world referred to it as a woman’s religion since it was so preferential to them and because it shared a compassion for the poor, sick, and outcast. Take the imagery used, The Bride of Christ, Holy Mother Church, etc.

This is patently incorrect. I have to wonder at your age because no-one who was around before Vatican would remotely make this claim; even now it’s laughable. In fact the only thing remotely “feminine” about Holy Mother Church has been the fact that She has been the only female voice heard for most of 2000 year and that “voice” has always come from male mouths with very masculine perceptions.

Now as far as the “compassion” aspect; I think most men, Jesus included, would balk at that being designated as a woman’s role. You ought to read G.K. Chesterton’s “Everlasting Man” for better insight into how your perceptions of masculinity have been skewed.

If you make men, (young, old and in between) necessary, we will come. If you make us optional, we won’t.

Ahh… would that this were true. Priest is a male only role and that’s kind of where this thread began; but aside from that; traditionally, the role of “usher” has always been filled by men. At our little parish, this role has sat VACANT for over a decade. Also, read my earlier post, my husband is the only male who can be bothered to help out with the maintenance around here, despite the fact that the church is sadly rotting away around us. And I will reiterate: boys went away → then girls became servers. Period.

Don’t listen to me, listen to the Bishops, the Priests, Cardinal Arinze (see my prev. post 132 regarding this), and JReducation has some wise remarks on this. I’m with Cardinal Arinze, girls “never should have been allowed to serve” if *only *because it allows the Devil to work on the minds of weak fools who *do *perceive this as distracting at best and, yes, “defilement” at worst. If you haven’t caught that accusation, you haven’t been paying attention. Don’t forget the accusation before us is that the presence of altar girls has directly led to the decline in priesthood. It’s shocking to me that this thread has gone on as long as it has.

 

[ProVobis]

but aside from that; traditionally, the role of “usher” has always been filled by men.

You know how to fix that, don’t you? Just tell them no women allowed and then you will get women ushers and collection plate administrators.

 

[Prayerfully]

“Alter” girls might have been okayed by a Pope, but Cardinal Arinze thinks it was a mistake.

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

Non omne quod licet honestum est.

Oh my gosh! I just read this and thought I must have slept for a month, woke up and discovered that Cardinal Arinze had been elected Pope and made a statement Ex Cathedra.

 

[ProVobis]

Oh my gosh! I just read this and thought I must have slept for a month, woke up and discovered that Cardinal Arinze had been elected Pope and made a statement Ex Cathedra.

That’s quite a putdown of Cardinal Arinze, part of the Magisterium of the Church and one of the top English communicators in the Vatican.

Ex Cathedra’s aren’t necessary when Popes reinforce one another’s teachings. Check out #131.

 

[Prayerfully]

That’s quite a putdown of Cardinal Arinze, part of the Magisterium of the Church and one of the top English communicators in the Vatican.

Ex Cathedra’s aren’t necessary when Popes reinforce one another’s teachings. Check out #131.

I’m sorry if you feel** it was a put down. It was not meant to be taken that way; it was meant to show that we are are to follow the Vicar of Christ. Even if we personally** disagree with it. Otherwise, we’d end up following the suggestions, beliefs, and practices of the Cardinals and Bishops we liked best. Then you have a set up rather like the Protestants and all their denominations.

 

[JReducation]

I’m sorry if you feel** it was a put down. It was not meant to be taken that way; it was meant to show that we are are to follow the Vicar of Christ. Even if we personally** disagree with it. Otherwise, we’d end up following the suggestions, beliefs, and practices of the Cardinals and Bishops we liked best. Then you have a set up rather like the Protestants and all their denominations.

Catholics have to be extra careful with assent to authority. A number of things have to be factored in.

1. Not everything has to be infallible or Ex Cathedra to be authoritative. The Church has three duties: to sanctify, to govern, and to teach. A pope can authorize or even command something that one may consider a mistake, but one is bound to obey it, because we obey authority. I always like to think of authority in the home. Our parents are not always right. However, that does not change their role nor take away from their authority. When we hear someone like Cardinal Arinze say that he thinks something is was a mistake, we have to take it exactly as he says it. He is not inviting or encouraging dissent. He’s making a simple observation. St. Francis of Assisi said it most clearly in his writings to his brothers and to the laity of his day. “Even when you know that you are correct and authority is mistaken, you are bound to obey in all things but sin, because obedience is a end in itself that is pleasing to God and man. You must learn to offer up the sacrifice as a penance and quietly submit to authority.”
2. We also have to remember that we can’t just write off bishops, cardinals, Metropolitans and Patriarchs. They have legitimate spheres of authority. A diocese without a bishop is not a Church. Again, the bishop governs, teaches and sanctifies. The priests and deacons in his diocese derive their authority from him. These bishops and metropolitans and even some abbots who are in charge of certain regions have the right to command obedience. They are Ordinaries. We tend to think that an Ordinary must coincide with the pope in all things. This is not true. They govern in union with the pope. This means that they are submissive to the pope in those matters where the pope explicitly commands submission or the law commands submission. They must also be in union with the pope in matters of faith and morals. Outside of that, they are very autonomous. Unless the bishop is a member of certain religious orders that explicitly vow obedience to the pope at all times, the promise of obedience that he makes when he is ordained a bishop kicks in only in those areas that i described. If a bishop is doing something that he pope commands him to stop, he must obey. If the pope says that he does not like it, but does not command him to stop, he need not stop. It is not expected of him. The faithful of his diocese must go along with the bishop. This is the principle of subsidiarity that Pope Benedict keeps talking about. You go with your bishop as long as he is in union with the pope in matters of faith, morals, canon law and direct orders from the pope. You may depart from the bishop only in matters where he departs from the union with the primacy. In those areas where he is in union with the primacy, you must comply. In areas where the primacy is either silent or has not legislated, we must also comply with the bishop.

I feel that this is a little more difficult for Latin Catholics than it is for the Oriental Catholics. The Oriental Catholics are smaller Churches. Therefore, they have more contact with their patriarchs or their synods, whichever governs them. The look to them for leadership. They don’t look to the pope as much as Latin Catholics do. Popes deliberately stay out of their local affairs. There is a psychological space, while preserving unity, between the local Church and the Holy See that we don’t observe too well. Our expectation is that the pope should micro-manage the Church. There is the other extreme that believes that the pope is a person with a lot of opinions and some of them are worth listening to. Both extremes are wrong.

The bishops manage their dioceses, not the pope. The pope’s expectations have to be taken seriously. But we have to learn to understand the expectation. Otherwise, we fall short or we go further than what the pope had in mind. The best person to tell us what the expectation means is the local bishop, because it is his job to apply it in his local Church.

The good thing in all of this is that the tradition has always been that if the bishop makes a mistake, those who followed him are not culpable. Only the bishop is culpable, IF the mistake was a deliberate deviation. If it was a mistake, then he’s not culpable either. The Church does not hold people subjectively culpable for mistakes that are made in good faith. Nor does she hold the faithful subjectively culpable for following the bishop believing that they are doing the right thing. Obviously, if they know that they are doing the wrong thing, they have a duty to say something. But wrong in this case means either immoral, heretical or in violation of Canon Law. It’s very important to remember that the Church has a system in place to decide what is wrong and when it’s wrong. We should not bring our system into the picture. We don’t have the authority to do so and we’ll only get us and others very confused. This is the problem with the Reformation Communities. Everyone brings his or her system and criteria to the table. It must be a nightmare. I’ve never been Protestant, so I wouldn’t know from personal experience.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Prayerfully]

Thanks Brother JR. As always, you put things into perspective and do so in an intelligent, readable, and charitable way.

In no way did I mean for my post to come across as an insult to the good Cardinal’s assessment. I was simply trying to point out, as I have when someone gets themselves in a twist over women wearing lady-like trousers and starts quoting St Pio’s assessment, that while good and holy souls have their own opinions, we must not take it as the entire answer, especially when “Rome has spoken” on it already- Pope okay with Altar Girls or the obvious clothing signs outside St Peter’s in the Vatican showing modest pants are okay for women.

 

[JReducation]

Thanks Brother JR. As always, you put things into perspective and do so in an intelligent, readable, and charitable way.

In no way did I mean for my post to come across as an insult to the good Cardinal’s assessment. I was simply trying to point out, as I have when someone gets themselves in a twist over women wearing lady-like trousers and starts quoting St Pio’s assessment, that while good and holy souls have their own opinions, we must not take it as the entire answer, especially when “Rome has spoken” on it already- Pope okay with Altar Girls or the obvious clothing signs outside St Peter’s in the Vatican showing modest pants are okay for women.

I’m glad that you mentioned St. Pio. St. Pio was a member of my religious family, the Franciscan family. He was a Capuchin Franciscan Brother. In fact, he belonged to the same province a Frater Cantalamessa, the papal preacher.

If we take the time to study the Franciscan school, we may learn a great deal that may help in this thread. St. Pio had an opinion. Before he expressed his opinion, he asked his superior if it was permissible to do so. This is an 800 year Franciscan tradition. No one expresses opinions of that nature without permission. It’s not like expressing your opinion about the weather. You had better be sure that your superior will back up your opinion. If he does not, you’re in serious canonical trouble and depending on the matter, you may even be in a state of grave sin for disobedience and presumption.

Second, the opinion was worded in such a way that it did not oppose the opinion of Church authorities, nor did it encourage anyone to oppose Church authorities, nor discourage anyone from doing whatever the Church allows. Why the careful wording? Again, it would be good for everyone here to study the Franciscan school of spirituality. Francis was not only a holy man, he was a mystic and a spiritual master. He understood what was necessary to achieve great holiness. One of the requirements for great holiness was submission to the Church at all times and in all things, even when one disagreed. You could always work through your disagreements. But it was risky business to dissent, even if you were right. Because God looks for obedience above all things. Man’s universal call is to conform to Christ who obeyed even unto death. From St. Pio’s point of view, he was not too keen on some things, but he suffered a psychological death, if you will, just as Christ suffered an actual death, all for the sake of obedience. Only through obedience can souls be redeemed.

Finally, St. Pio did not like many changes that took place during his final years. He asked his superiors if it was OK not to like these changes. He was actually told what changes he could dislike and which ones he had to learn to like. He did. This is how great saints operate. You force your mind and your will to comply, because you love. This has not changed to this day.

I’m still told what I may say or not say, what I may like and what I must learn to like. I’m still told what opinions I may hold and which ones I have to abandon. If I want to be a saint, this is my sure way to heaven, because the method was tried and proven by one of the greatest spiritual masters in Church history.

Our Holy Father Francis, St. Pio and Cardinal Arinze would all have an opinion on female servers, but they would never say that we are to point the finger at the Holy See and demand change. They would all say that we must learn to live with what we do not like until such time as those in power change it, if they wish to do so. They would encourage us to be obedient. Obedience does not mean that you must push your daughter to be an altar server. Obedience means that you must accept that the Church allows this.

They would also encourage us to be gentle with ourselves. We cannot and should never go around agonizing over something that is not wrong. There are too many evils in the world over which we can agonize. To add more agony to our lives is to be cruel to ourselves. Loving neighbor as we love ourselves, requires the latter first. Be gentle with yourself. Don’t agonize over things that are not evil or that are not wrong.

They may be mistakes, but they are not wrong. There is a difference, don’t ever forget that. Just because I made a left turn when I should have made a right turn does not constitute an evil.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Kardinal]

St. Francis of Assisi said it most clearly in his writings to his brothers and to the laity of his day. “Even when you know that you are correct and authority is mistaken, you are bound to obey in all things but sin, because obedience is a end in itself that is pleasing to God and man. You must learn to offer up the sacrifice as a penance and quietly submit to authority.”

Brother JR,

I’ve been reading your recent posts on authority with great interest. I could not find a source for this quote. Can you tell me where you found it in the writings of St Francis? I would like to do more reading on his thoughts on the matter.

Thank you.

 

[archangel04]

They would also encourage us to be gentle with ourselves. We cannot and should never go around agonizing over something that is not wrong. There are too many evils in the world over which we can agonize. **To add more agony to our lives is to be cruel to ourselves. Loving neighbor as we love ourselves, requires the latter first. Be gentle with yourself. Don’t agonize over things that are not evil or that are not wrong.

They may be mistakes, but they are not wrong. There is a difference, don’t ever forget that. Just because I made a left turn when I should have made a right turn does not constitute an evil.**
Br. JR, OSF

The bolded part just gave me chills I always learn somethine new with your post Br. JR
Thank you!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Well, great. You are absolutely right about asking. Alas, I wish you were right about the physical presence of boys or most any youth at Mass these days. Out here in the God-less Pacific NW - we have a slightly different picture. Thanks for sharing. This underscores the reason we don’t/can’t “call the shots”. We don’t have the capacity to see the big picture nor do we have the level of contemplative prayerfulness that we expect from our Bishops and clergy. Now that I think about it, though, even in my various churches back East while growing up, this was the case: viri de nada.

(Definitely, people, please do ask your youth to be involved in EVERY aspect of your church. Invite them and make ways for them to feel not just welcome, but WANTED.

:yup:

Ain’t that the truth…at our morning mass…there just aren’t that many boys that want to serve…or even girls…quite often one of them is an adult.

Maybe people are having less kids nowadays:shrug: I myself figure that I’ll let the Church work it out…that is the beauty of being Catholic…having been on the other side of the rhelm… Personnally I’m thankful that our priest sees nothing wrong with having both females/males serve. But if he only wanted males to serve then I would respect that too… Are we not suppose to work in unity and love?

not go on some public rant about it? Some people just love this guy…but how would they feel if it was some person attacking the church on something else?..that that person thought was truly in error?

Ya…maybe don’t shoot the messenger but there is a way to do it…and frankly…I don’t see good things coming out of this guy…

 

[JReducation]

Brother JR,

I’ve been reading your recent posts on authority with great interest. I could not find a source for this quote. Can you tell me where you found it in the writings of St Francis? I would like to do more reading on his thoughts on the matter.

Thank you.

I paraphrased it into modern English. Here’s the link to a translation from 13th century Italian to 19th century English, maybe early 20th century.

Of Perfect and Imperfect Obedience**

Admonition 3

And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God, let him strive to fulfil the work enjoined by the superior. This is true and charitable obedience which is pleasing to God and to one’s neighbor.**

There is a book called Francis and Clare: The Writings, edited by Regis Armstrong, OFM Cap, which has a much better translation than the one on this site. It flows much better. This one is clunky to my ears.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[dailey]

I agree with Michael 100%!

 

[tradcathconvert]

Allow the Extraordinary Form or Tridentine Mass to flourish and co-exist with the Ordinary Form. Traditional parishes, chapels, oratories, and so forth don’t seem to have any issues with having young men serve. For example,

youtube.com/watch?v=94sa1Byb7fw

youtube.com/watch?v=xK8jPgJeGuA

Thank you for the links. I am sacristan/head server (MC) for the TLM I attend. It would be great to have that many altar boys.

 

[ProVobis]

Thank you for the links. I am sacristan/head server (MC) for the TLM I attend. It would be great to have that many altar boys.

That’s great but perhaps you ought to explain the role of an MC for many of those here. I know it’s very important in the Solemn High Mass.

 

[Baron_Korf]

Mr. Korf, I’m going to ignore your inflammatory speech and direct my remarks to specific points which are worth being addressed.

Hey, I was simply following the trend.

Really? You think there is anything you could do to make this kind of transition feel good?

Take it from the other perspective. How about the transition from it being our duty to something that can be done by women instead? How is that for an insult. ‘Sorry guys, this isn’t your thing anymore, but hey, nothing personal.’ I never said it would be easy, I’m saying it should be corrected. That will require humility and magnanimity on the part of the young women who did indeed help out when it was asked of them. Indeed they often do a better job, but there is a bigger picture to consider.

This is patently incorrect. I have to wonder at your age because no-one who was around before Vatican would remotely make this claim; even now it’s laughable. In fact the only thing remotely “feminine” about Holy Mother Church has been the fact that She has been the only female voice heard for most of 2000 year and that “voice” has always come from male mouths with very masculine perceptions.

Always coming from the mouth of men? They must have been ventriloquists with impeccable falsettos to have their words spoken through St Brigid, St Catherine, St Teresa of Avila, St Hildegarde, St Clare, St Elizabeth Ann Seton and many others. Around most parishes I’ve been in, the majority of catechists, bible study participants, choir members, and lay leaders have been women. What is more evocative of Catholicism than the teaching nuns who gave us so much in dozens of decades before the Council?

Now as far as the “compassion” aspect; I think most men, Jesus included, would balk at that being designated as a woman’s role. You ought to read G.K. Chesterton’s “Everlasting Man” for better insight into how your perceptions of masculinity have been skewed.

Study a few pagan religions of Europe and the world and tell me that. After reading the Edda, the Nibelung, Odyssey, Iliad, parts of Gilgamesh, and the cultures from which these writings have spawned, I can say with confidence that the pagan world’s view on masculinity does not include compassion and preferential treatment to those marginalized in society. Now the actions and teachings of our Blessed Lord tell us it should, but then if we already knew that why would he have to teach it? It is contrary to our fallen nature. This fallen masculinity is to be tamed, guided and corrected by the divine femininity of the Bride of Christ.

And I will reiterate: boys went away → then girls became servers. Period.

Only in some cases. Other places they story goes in reverse. I have seen both

Don’t listen to me, listen to the Bishops, the Priests, Cardinal Arinze (see my prev. post 132 regarding this), and JReducation has some wise remarks on this. I’m with Cardinal Arinze, girls “never should have been allowed to serve” if *only *because it allows the Devil to work on the minds of weak fools who *do *perceive this as distracting at best and, yes, “defilement” at worst.

Well this weak-minded fool (those were the droids I was looking for) will consider that if an all boys cadre of altar servers is good enough for the Holy Father, it is good enough for me. Also I would point out that while girls are allowed to serve at the altar as an indult implemented at the discretion of the local ordinary, they cannot be instituted acolytes. To me that says that mind of the Church is that service at the altar is to be reserved for young men.

Don’t forget the accusation before us is that the presence of altar girls has directly led to the decline in priesthood.

Not really. Voris’s video pointed to an overall feminization of the Church, of which altar girls are a visible symptom. I have watched enough of his stuff to know that he is not such a fool as to think that the problems we face have a single origin. This is but one problem amongst many.

 

[JReducation]

Hey, I was simply following the trend.

Take it from the other perspective. How about the transition from it being our duty to something that can be done by women instead? How is that for an insult. ‘Sorry guys, this isn’t your thing anymore, but hey, nothing personal.’ I never said it would be easy, I’m saying it should be corrected. That will require humility and magnanimity on the part of the young women who did indeed help out when it was asked of them. Indeed they often do a better job, but there is a bigger picture to consider.

Always coming from the mouth of men? They must have been ventriloquists with impeccable falsettos to have their words spoken through St Brigid, St Catherine, St Teresa of Avila, St Hildegarde, St Clare, St Elizabeth Ann Seton and many others. Around most parishes I’ve been in, the majority of catechists, bible study participants, choir members, and lay leaders have been women. What is more evocative of Catholicism than the teaching nuns who gave us so much in dozens of decades before the Council?

Study a few pagan religions of Europe and the world and tell me that. After reading the Edda, the Nibelung, Odyssey, Iliad, parts of Gilgamesh, and the cultures from which these writings have spawned, I can say with confidence that the pagan world’s view on masculinity does not include compassion and preferential treatment to those marginalized in society. Now the actions and teachings of our Blessed Lord tell us it should, but then if we already knew that why would he have to teach it? It is contrary to our fallen nature. This fallen masculinity is to be tamed, guided and corrected by the divine femininity of the Bride of Christ.

Only in some cases. Other places they story goes in reverse. I have seen both

Well this weak-minded fool (those were the droids I was looking for) will consider that if an all boys cadre of altar servers is good enough for the Holy Father, it is good enough for me. Also I would point out that while girls are allowed to serve at the altar as an indult implemented at the discretion of the local ordinary, they cannot be instituted acolytes. To me that says that mind of the Church is that service at the altar is to be reserved for young men.

Not really. Voris’s video pointed to an overall feminization of the Church, of which altar girls are a visible symptom. I have watched enough of his stuff to know that he is not such a fool as to think that the problems we face have a single origin. This is but one problem amongst many.

I don’t believe that Mr. Voris is a fool. However, I do see a weakness in the Vortex Videos. They begin with the words “Where lies and falsehoods are trapped and exposed.” This can be problematic, because a lot of times the content are the opinions of the speaker. What the speaker may consider a lie and a falsehood may not be so for other people in the Church, including the Holy See itself.

The other problem is that there are many people who only watch the Vortex videos, but do not subscribe to St. Michaels media. What happens is that they walk away only with the negatives, because that’s what the Vortex series is about. There are other articles, videos and resources in St. Michael’s Media that contain a lot more positives about the Church than the negatives in the Vortex series. Unless you subscribe to St. Michael’s Media, you won’t see these and you will always go away feeling that the Church is going to hell in a hand basket.

That’s my word of warning regarding the Vortex Series. It’s only a piece of a larger picture. It’s too bad that it has become the most popular piece of what Mr. Voris and St. Michael’s Media produces. They do have a lot of very uplifting and hope filled material.

No knowing anything about their corporate policies, I have no idea why their other material is not a readily accessible. It should be. It would balance things out. That’s why I like Mr. Keating better. His products are equally available.

On this particular subject I also find it interesting that Mr. Voris sounds like a “man’s man”. When you see him in person, he’s really not. This is almost the same Michael Voris that was once a TV anchor. It’s a persona. In person, this man is very gentle, funny, almost boyish and very polite and unassuming. He’s not as tough as he projects on the Vortex. I don’t mean to say that he does not have courage. When I say that he’s not as tough, I mean that he’s not an aggressive person at all. I’ve never figured out why the Vortex series presents him as if he were this aggressive guy willing to take on the world. He’s not aggressive at all. He’s attentive, polite and very diplomatic. I can’t figure out why they project this image only on this series. It’s not present in any of their other work. Then again, I’m not in the field of Communication. Maybe there is a method to the madness as we used to say when I was younger. But I do warn people that the Vortex represents only a small piece of the Church. The Church is not going to hell in a hand basket and St. Michael’s Media and other online Apostolates can prove it.

As Bl. John Paul always said, “Be not afraid.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PiousTemplar]

It’s all and well that Michael Vortex can still see the sawdust in other’s eyes through the planks in his own. His show is the “COPS” of the self-appointed Church guardians, supposedly picking up the slack from the Holy Spirit, and allowing his viewers to cheer on the bullying of the less-holy-than-me miscreants. It’s big on righteous indignation and thin on the Gospels, and that’s called ‘awesome’?

Is it what we are supposed to do? Expose them? I’m new I don’t know much. From what I have heard, the things he says in his videos are mostly correct. I’m sorry if my other comments seemed offensive or harsh, I didn’t intend them to be any more than questions!

 

[InspiritCarol]

Hey, I was simply following the trend.

Take it from the other perspective. How about the transition from it being our duty to something that can be done by women instead? How is that for an insult. ‘Sorry guys, this isn’t your thing anymore, but hey, nothing personal.’

Boys aren’t allowed to serve? :banghead:

I never said it would be easy,

"Baron Korf:

Explain the tradition, tell them they did a good job, throw them a thank you dinner, find ways for them to help.

…makes it sound easy.

Always coming from the mouth of men? They must have been ventriloquists with impeccable falsettos to have their words spoken through St Brigid, St Catherine, St Teresa of Avila, St Hildegarde, St Clare, St Elizabeth Ann Seton

You have these people in Mass, quoted EVER? How about LOTH? Seriously, how do you even *know *about these women?

Around most parishes I’ve been in, the majority of catechists, bible study participants, choir members, and lay leaders have been women.

And this reflects your age. Women as lay leaders is a very new thing. Same with the whole choir thing. I’m told they didn’t do “bible studies” pre-Vatican II.

What is more evocative of Catholicism than the teaching nuns who gave us so much in dozens of decades before the Council?

IDK about the old “teaching nuns” you may have seen, but the High School I went to was also a retirement home for these nuns. Friend, they were lovely wonderful, spiritually beautiful people… truly. I have every ounce of love and respect for them; but, I’m afraid that they deliberately did every thing in their power to de-feminize themselves. These were tough “ladies” and I wouldn’t even swear to their gender at all except for the expectation that thats what they were.

Also, not a single person I know of who was taught by one of these nuns would remotely label them as “charitable” or “compassionate”. They are as people, yes, (I know from personal experience) but that was not the teaching style at all.

Study a few pagan religions of Europe and the world and tell me that.

You assume I haven’t.

After reading the Edda, the Nibelung, Odyssey, Iliad, parts of Gilgamesh, and the cultures from which these writings have spawned, I can say with confidence that the pagan world’s view on masculinity does not include compassion and preferential treatment to those marginalized in society.

You don’t have to look any farther than the Old Testament if you are search for data points to support your skewed conclusion; but you left off my personal favorite: Beowulf - which was entertainingly doctored by monks in the middle ages to come across as being a bit more “Christian”. It’s fun to notice these little insertions.

The trouble is, we’re back to post hoc. These patriarchal societies have a history of violence therefore → men aren’t charitable. It’s an absolute, so I only need to point to one example to refute it; though I’ll point to two: Queen Elizabeth; and the matriarchal society of druid and goddess worship; both *very *violent and bloody (unless one considers human sacrifice okay - I mean it doesn’t have to be violent… maybe they’re *charitably *ripping peoples’ hearts out ).

Beyond that though; look to the other aspects of the cultures you have put forward. You have presented ***accounts of war ***as if that is the sum total of the culture and the men therein. Of course the warriors are fierce and remorseless. We do not look to war for the complete picture of what “man” may be.

Now the actions and teachings of our Blessed Lord tell us it should, but then if we already knew that why would he have to teach it? It is contrary to our fallen nature. This fallen masculinity is to be tamed, guided and corrected by the divine femininity of the Bride of Christ.

:ehh:
Gentle reminders of our true nature do not indicate an *absence *of said traits.

Only in some cases. Other places they story goes in reverse. I have seen both

'Fraid you lost me here.

Also I would point out that while girls are allowed to serve at the altar as an indult implemented at the discretion of the local ordinary, they cannot be instituted acolytes. To me that says that mind of the Church is that service at the altar is to be reserved for young men.

It just means a line was drawn that is not to be crossed. And it is not.

I have watched enough of his stuff to know that he is not such a fool as to think that the problems we face have a single origin. This is but one problem amongst many.

Michael Voris *may *feel that way, but this video and others on this thread say otherwise.