Real Presence In The Eucharist & Priest's Ability to Transform Bread & Wine To Body And Blood

[Greg1]

Good Morning All,
I’m a Cradle Catholic and Sponsor for an RCIA Candidate this year.
We have an individual in the class that has fantastic questions, deeper than the usual run-of-the-mill questions.

This particular one from last night pertaining to the Real Presence of Christ in The Eucharist, (vs the ol’ ‘just a representation of…’) but her reason for the question was to be applauded. It went like this:

'When Christ came into the world via Mary, Catholic teaching says she (Mary) was conceived without sin, so Christ would not enter this world through sin (referring to the immaculate conception) How then, can Christ enter into the Eucharist with his real and physical presence, through a priest who is a sinner? If He HAD to enter the world through sinless flesh, how is He able to do so during consecration through a sinner?"

Fantastic question if I may say so myself.

She has no issues with believing in the true presence at the THE LAST SUPPER when Christ himself said it, her hang up, is on the Priest’s ability to do so.

I responded, this is about his authority as a priest to do so? Not really, its about him being a sinner.

We took the angle of Peter/keys to the kingdom, passing down the authority, also Christ’s words “do this in memory of me…” Still, more, we went on that it is not the priest himself, but rather Christ through him etc.

Still she wants more direct biblical evidence of the priesthood, and their ability as a sinner, to be the instrument through which Christ enters the Bread and Wine.

Any Additional help from this knowledge base would be helpful so I may return next week with further answers.

Thank you in advance

-Greg

 

[Wesrock]

Jesus Christ took his flesh from Mary and was nurtured and lived in her womb. The Eucharist is not the same type of action. As you noted, it is Christ who uses the priest as an instrument, but it is the bread and wine that changes, not anything of the priest. I don’t see a parallel to the Immaculate Conception.

Just a note on the IC. I don’t believe it is a logical necessity. It was fitting, though, and also an act of love for his mother.

 

[LittleFlower378]

Maybe take the approach of its not the priest(although the priest is necessary), but Jesus working through the priest.

Another doctrine is that even though the priest may be in mortal sin, the bread and wine are still changed into the body and blood of Christ.

 

[BartholomewB]

Still she wants more direct biblical evidence of the priesthood, and their ability as a sinner, to be the instrument through which Christ enters the Bread and Wine.

Biblical evidence? That’s going to be difficult. I’m pretty sure there’s nothing in the NT that is so explicit and so specific. You could try Paul’s use of the verb “hierourgeo” in Romans 15:16. It means, literally, “to do the work of a priest.” This is evidently a difficult passage to translate. In the NIV,

I have written to you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Rom 15:15-16,NIV)

I’m sure either @Gorgias or @Bithynian will be able to help, if they see this.

 

[po18guy]

All human hands are sinful. However, Christ is made present by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Conversely, if she is from another denomination, how can the word of God be preached - come to us - via pastor’s sinful lips?

 

[Inquiry]

So two things that may help her. The first is to look at the words of the consecration at the last supper. “Do this in remembrance of me.” He charged his disciples to continue this act going forward. And biblically, remembrance usually refers to God remembering His covenants. So Jesus was saying do this and God shall remember and uphold it.

The second is that the Eucharist like all the Sacraments, does not depend on the worthiness of the person who ministers them. They are visible manifestations of God’s grace and not reflections of the person who performs them. If the power were coming from the priest than his sinful nature could be a problem, but that’s not where the power is coming from.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

When Christ came into the world via Mary, Catholic teaching says she (Mary) was conceived without sin, so Christ would not enter this world through sin

Are you sure that this premise is correct?

The CCC seems to give a different reason for the Immaculate Conception.

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”.133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.

 

[Jesuslover]

We took the angle of Peter/keys to the kingdom

Peter himself was a sinner and denied Jesus three times, but Jesus still handed him the keys to the Kingdom. Could he not then hand a sinful priest the keys as well?

 

[porthos11]

'When Christ came into the world via Mary, Catholic teaching says she (Mary) was conceived without sin, so Christ would not enter this world through sin (referring to the immaculate conception) How then, can Christ enter into the Eucharist with his real and physical presence, through a priest who is a sinner? If He HAD to enter the world through sinless flesh…

This is the problem right here. This premise is false.

 

[OneMoreTime]

I am also in RCIA. My understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) is that part of why Mary was conceived without sin because to fulfil her role as the new Eve, she must be without original sin and likewise Christ had to be without original sin to be the new Adam.
It has always been my understanding that the “job” of a priest is to be a conduit for holiness, a tool of God’s grace and mercy but his job does not make him personally holy. He has to do the same hard work day to day as the rest of us sinners. A heart surgeon might save lives all day. The fact that he himself eats McDonald’s every night after work doesn’t invalidate his surgeries. That’s my take on it.

 

[Chistian-ity]

Welcome to the forums!

For one, I’m not sure if transubstantiation is analogous to giving birth to Jesus. But I don’t think that would be a satisfying answer for her. I have a question’ could you ask your priest? They could probably provide a better answer, especially since they know her in person. If not, I can go grab some Bible verses and throw together an answer. Although it seems someone has already addressed the first part of the question by quoting the CCC

 

[Gorgias]

'When Christ came into the world via Mary, Catholic teaching says she (Mary) was conceived without sin, so Christ would not enter this world through sin (referring to the immaculate conception)

No. The Church teaches that it was fitting, not that God’s plans would have otherwise been thwarted.

My understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) is that part of why Mary was conceived without sin because to fulfil her role as the new Eve, she must be without original sin and likewise Christ had to be without original sin to be the new Adam.

Hmm… no, I don’t think we’d say that “Christ had to be without original sin to be the new Adam.” He’s God – He simply is, a priori, “without sin”. If Mary were born with original sin, Jesus would still be without sin. It’s the case, rather, that it’s simply fitting that Jesus should be born of a woman who was sinless.

How then, can Christ enter into the Eucharist with his real and physical presence, through a priest who is a sinner?

Invalid foundation. Christ doesn’t “enter into the Eucharist with his physical presence”. Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is real and substantial, but it’s in a sacramental mode, not the usual physical mode in which we encounter persons on a normal basis.

So, on that count alone, I think we can set aside her objection. Nevertheless, it’s valuable to keep exploring her questions and offer answers…

I responded, this is about his authority as a priest to do so? Not really, its about him being a sinner.

And yet, Christ Himself commanded the apostles – all of whom were sinners! – to “do this in memory of me.” So, this isn’t an example of later leaders in the Church doing something that Christ didn’t want – rather, Jesus Himself literally commanded it, of sinful men!

Still she wants more direct biblical evidence of the priesthood

Umm… Mt 16 doesn’t suffice? Nor do St Paul’s references to the Eucharistic celebration? (Moreover, why “biblical evidence”? Does the witness of Early Church Fathers not count – and if so, why not? Why does she assert a “bible only” standard (that’s something that the Church does not teach)? Do the teachings of the councils not count – and if so, why not?)

“Evidence of their ability as a sinner, to be the instrument…”? Does Christ’s forgiveness of Peter (and His commands to “feed my sheep”) not count?

 

[Gorgias]

Maybe take the approach of its not the priest(although the priest is necessary), but Jesus working through the priest.

Yep. From the catechism:

[1548] In the ecclesial service of the ordained minister, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church as Head of his Body, Shepherd of his flock, high priest of the redemptive sacrifice, Teacher of Truth. This is what the Church means by saying that the priest, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, acts in persona Christi Capitis :

It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsius Christi) .

Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ.

[1549] Through the ordained ministry, especially that of bishops and priests, the presence of Christ as head of the Church is made visible in the midst of the community of believers. In the beautiful expression of St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop is typos tou Patros : he is like the living image of God the Father.

[1550] This presence of Christ in the minister is not to be understood as if the latter were preserved from all human weaknesses, the spirit of domination, error, even sin. The power of the Holy Spirit does not guarantee all acts of ministers in the same way. While this guarantee extends to the sacraments, so that even the minister’s sin cannot impede the fruit of grace, in many other acts the minister leaves human traces that are not always signs of fidelity to the Gospel and consequently can harm the apostolic fruitfulness of the Church.

Just a question from my own personal sense of curiosity: was the leader of the RCIA class unable to provide an answer? Did they not defer to the Catechism?

 

[RaisedCatholic]

Another somewhat relevant question I had growing up was since Jesus is God which means he is ever present, that is, he is everywhere all the time, then how could Jesus not be present in the communion bread one moment, and then be present in the very next moment when the priest performs transubstantiation of the Eucharist? Does that mean the God Man Jesus was not ever present in that particular communion wafer before then? Is the communion bread somewhere that Jesus was not present at that particular time? That would seem to conflict with his ever presence wouldn’t it? Just asking, because I thought that’s where you were going to go with this, and because it’s a question that’s relevant to the post, and I am interested what the answer would be. Thank you and God bless.

 

[Cathoholic]

Greg1 . . . .

'When Christ came into the world via Mary, Catholic teaching says she (Mary) was conceived without sin, so Christ would not enter this world through sin (referring to the immaculate conception) How then, can Christ enter into the Eucharist with his real and physical presence, through a priest who is a sinner? If He HAD to enter the world through sinless flesh, how is He able to do so during consecration through a sinner?"

Welcome to CAF here Greg1.

I am going to echo @Wesrock.

It was “fitting” to enter into humanity via a pure Blessed Mother.

Not “necessary”.

(End of answer but now I will muse deeper into this if interested. Since it is a Mystery, I won’t be able to explain it. But we can probe deeper.)

Recall Jesus is the New Adam (c.f. Romans 5).

The “old Adam” was made from undefiled substance (a non-fallen world).

If the “New Adam” (Jesus) were made from defiled flesh, it would suggest Jesus is not a FULFILLMENT of the Old Adam.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the “New Eve”.

CCC 975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” (Paul VI, CPG § 15).

How Can You Say That Mary Is the 'New Eve'? | Catholic Answers Magazine

I would suggest it was entirely “fitting” regarding the Blessed Mother as well to be made sinless (as The Blessed Mother is also a fulfillment). But God had to intervene in a special way to accomplish this.

Remember the “Old Eve” was made from the PURE side of the PURE OLD Adam.

If Our Lady was not made pure, Eve (the Old Eve) would be BETTER in that sense than the Blessed Mother.

Remember. The Blessed Virgin Mary received this grace and purity as a “singular privilege”.

(The Blessed Mother is a type or “typus” of the Church.)

The Church which was born from the side of the New Adam (via blood and water), is ALSO pure as St. Paul states.

But only in it’s fullest form, or as Pope John Paul II has said, in its “eschatological fulfillment”. (Jesus who is God, realizes this in and out of time. That’s WHY the Book of Revelation describes Him as a Lamb as though it had been slain . . . In Heaven.)

Since there is an unperfected earthly dimension to the Church in time that is awaiting perfection (i.e. me, others, and even our priests are all sinners), Jesus is going to have to do this IN HIMSELF through the priest.

The priest acts in persona Christi. (There is ONE Priest-Jesus Christ. Bishops, ministerial priests, and us-the priesthood of ALL the Baptized, only have a SHARE in that ONE priesthood. Differing shares to be sure, but a share).

Despite the priest being a sinner, Jesus is not a sinner.
So there is a Christologic dimension of utter purity.

And a dimension (from the ministerial priest) that awaits fulfillment but did not have that “singular privilege” in this world.

These two (Christ and His ministerial priest) are joined in a mysterious way. The ministerial priest does not have that “singular privilege”.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Still she wants more direct biblical evidence of the priesthood, and their ability as a sinner, to be the instrument through which Christ enters the Bread and Wine.

First of all your catechumen needs to know that she’s not always going to get “direct Biblical evidence” for every teaching of the Church. I would suggest you make this very clear to her right now. If she can’t get past that hangup, she will have trouble with all kinds of Church teachings.

Second, we’ve already had a heresy in the early Church called Donatism where people argued that the efficacy of a sacrament was dependent on the priest being sinless. The Church rejected this idea. Obviously, if a priest needs to be sinless to administer sacraments, we would never be able to receive sacraments because no one on earth is sinless. The Council of Trent made very clear that the sacrament of Holy Eucharist is the sacrifice of Jesus, the Great High Priest and sinless victim, and does not depend on the worth of the individual priest offering the sacrifice.

Donatism - Wikipedia

Third, the Apostles were obviously sinful men - Peter sins majorly by denying Jesus, and Jesus foretold he would do it so Jesus was well aware of Peter’s sinfulness - yet Jesus had no problem with making Peter and the others priests and telling them to offer Eucharistic sacrifice. If Jesus thought it depended on the Apostles’ personal sinlessness, he’d have said so in his teachings to them. He didn’t say anything of the sort.

 

[Jesuslover]

God is omnipresent spiritually, but He is present in a more profound way in the Eucharist: Real Presence. So yes, God is present in the wafer before consecration, but we would never put an unconsecrated host into a monstrance and adore it. On the other hand, we worship and pray to the consecrated Host because we believe that it is God.

 

[Greg1]

Many Thanks to every last one of you for responding here. Many (but not all) of these responses were brought up not only by the teacher but the rest of the group, as we offered these things they were not necessarily in consecutive and coherent presentation of answers, but each of us immediately wanting to state our foundation / reason for why this is done through the priest.

Please continue if anyone has more to add, I will put together a list to deliver to here next week for her to pray about and consider.

Again, Many many thanks for the fast replies to all of you.

 

[Gorgias]

Many (but not all) of these responses were brought up not only by the teacher but the rest of the group

I think that the big picture answers that she will have to consider are:

• for Catholics, doctrine isn’t “Bible only”, but also includes Apostolic Tradition (i.e., the teachings of Christ as passed down to the apostles and continued throughout time in their successors)
• her understanding of the Eucharist and of the Immaculate Conception are close, but in need of certain nuance / correction, which we hope she’ll gain through her participation in the RCIA program

 

[Dedios]

Christ does not enter the Eucharist through the priest. During the consecration the priest says,

Therefore, O Lord, we humbly implore you: by the same Spirit graciously make holy these gifts we have brought to you for consecration, that they may become the Body and Blood of your Son our Lord Jesus Christ, at whose command we celebrate these mysteries. (Eucharistic Prayer III)

In other words, the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus by the Holy Spirit at the invitation of the priest. Some priests make a noticeable pause after saying these words, most, unfortunately don’t. It is in that pause (however brief) that transubstantiation takes place. The elevation of the host takes place immediately after these words as the bread is then the body of Christ.