Real Presence

[AgnosTheist]

But per above. What makes you think that Catholics who receive Communion regularly and in proper conscience are just as likely to go to jail as anyone?

proper conscience? i’m not a mind reader. all i know is that ive seen plenty of people who recieved communion, and an hour later became the regular beep that they are.

All the Catholics I can think of who receive Christ regularly and properly throughout history are far less likely to commit crimes from what I see. Aquinas, Augustine, Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, people I know, etc…

those who burned heretics & disbelievers at the stake, did they eat jesus properly?

 

[kms123]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=180302

 

[MarcoPolo]

proper conscience? i’m not a mind reader.

Nor do I expect you to be, my friend! It is for God to make that ultimate determination and for the person to examine his own heart. (cf. 1 Cor 11:26-30)

those who burned heretics & disbelievers at the stake, did they eat jesus properly?

Well, I’m guessing no if they were receiving Communion with unrepented murder on their conscience.

You seem to be a non-Christian? Is that correct? If so, that is making this difficult. If you accept Scripture, this conversation should be easy. If not, then I would say before discussing the truth behind Church teaching and the Real Presence, it would be better to determine what the true faith is. No? Perhaps in another thread.

Because if this is going to turn into cyncicism about Catholicism at every turn, I’m going to get bored really fast.

If you do follow me, here’s a quick understanding of how people still sin after receiving Communion. Catholics teach in our free will to reject grace from God. However, if one persists in embracing the grace received in Communion and in other ways, he will indeed be transformed to a holier state.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Well, I’m guessing no if they were receiving Communion with unrepented murder on their conscience.

You seem to be a non-Christian? Is that correct?

no i’m not christian. i have faith in god but I dont believe in any religion.

What i was trying to say is, if the eucharist help prevent people from sinning then how come catholic history had so much blood in it? it just about rivals islam as the most violent religion on record. some people would say its because of necessity. but then early christianity survived Roman brutality without resorting to violence.

 

[MarcoPolo]

it just about rivals islam as the most violent religion on record.

Could you cite the Catholic Church’s teaching that promotes violence?

I already explained how people can receive the Eucharist ineffectively.

And if a Catholic person went against Church teaching and committed sin and injustice, does that make the Church itself an invalid faith? Of course not. If you believe the Church should have better representation of the love the Church is meant to espouse…join us and be a great witness…we could always use more.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Could you cite the Catholic Church’s teaching that promotes violence?

hey i never said that the teaching itself promote violence.

i’m just saying that if the eucharist really prevents sin, then there should at least be a massive positive effect on the catholic nation as a whole. and yet the deeds that the church have committed in the past are anything but divine.

thats evidence that the eucharist is just make believe. it doesnt really have any long lasting effect.

 

[MarcoPolo]

hey i never said that the teaching itself promote violence.

i’m just saying that if the eucharist really prevents sin, then there should at least be a massive positive effect on the catholic nation as a whole. and yet the deeds that the church have committed in the past are anything but divine.

thats evidence that the eucharist is just make believe. it doesnt really have any long lasting effect.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear that people who regularly receive the Eucharist in good practice tend not to engage in mortal sin…

 

[Keikiolu]

hey i never said that the teaching itself promote violence.

i’m just saying that if the eucharist really prevents sin, then there should at least be a massive positive effect on the catholic nation as a whole. and yet the deeds that the church have committed in the past are anything but divine.

Who says the eucharist prevents sin?

This idea shows an extreme lack of knowledge about the subject at hand.

thats evidence that the eucharist is just make believe. it doesnt really have any long lasting effect.

To you, the eucharist IS just make believe. What does that tell us?

It tells me that you have no concept of what the eucharist is, which informs me of your credibility in commenting on this subject.

Best to you, my ignorant friend.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Who says the eucharist prevents sin?

Cathechism 1393-1395

youve been eating jesus without knowing that? now talk about “extreme lack of knowledge”

To you, the eucharist IS just make believe.

Its only logical, for there are no objective positive effects besides making you feel good from 5 minutes to 1 hour.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Its only logical, for there are no objective positive effects besides making you feel good from 5 minutes to 1 hour.

I don’t see it Agnos…everyone I can think of who lived Saintly lives properly took the Eucharist. And I know plenty of people who have gotten over sin by taking to the sacraments of Eucharist and Confession. It is quite powerful.

I think you point only to people who do not receive the Eucharist in proper conscience (cf. Catechism 1415), which indeed is not efficacious but detrimental! (again, 1 Cor 11:26-30)

Hopefully that explains to you why you see some people taking Communion who do not live as they should.

 

[bengal_fan]

i’ll chime in here as a protestant.

i believe that Jesus is spiritually present in communion. i do not believe it is mere symbolism, but that God, Himself, is present. i do not believe that i am acually eating real meat and drinking real blood. the reason is that it still looks, tastes, and has all the qualities of bread and wine. but God (Jesus) is truly present within the substances and there is a miraculous change to the substances and to us when we consume them.

now for AgnosTheist’s argument. he has a point. Jesus Himself tells us that we can judge a tree by the fruit it produces. the RCC has produced a lot of good fruit. but there has been a lot of very visible bad fruit. when a pope gives out indulgences for killing muslims to take back the holy land… i see that as bad fruit. the lack of life-changing faith i see in many american catholics is bad fruit. in my mind, these don’t affect my view of the richness that is in the catholic church. but for some one who is wrestling with the faith, they look at this stuff and (somewhat rightly) conclude that it is a dead or hipocritical faith. not my view by any means, but i think this is where AgnosTheist is coming from.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I don’t see it Agnos…everyone I can think of who lived Saintly lives properly took the Eucharist.

I know a couple of saintly people too are not even catholics. The best way to argue your point is through a larger picture: the community. Prove that catholic communities are better than than evangelical & buddhist communities.

In the past catholic communities are even worst than muslim ones.

 

[ncgolf]

I know a couple of saintly people too are not even catholics. The best way to argue your point is through a larger picture: the community. Prove that catholic communities are better than than evangelical & buddhist communities.

In the past catholic communities are even worst than muslim ones.

No, you are incorrect … the call to faith is an individual one. God calls each by name, as an individual, we use commnunity to share what has been given to each. The community supports each other … for the most part most Christians do their part in the community without any limelight, notierity or publicity … truth is you rarely hear about them. You can judge all 1 billion of us by the truly horrible 5,000, 10,000 whatever number you can dig up but you can and wont know what the other 900,000,000 or whatever number has done.

Being a saintly person and being a Saint are 2 entirely different states. We are all called to lead saintly lives on earth and are called to sanctity, no one is excluded. The standards for canonization in the Catholic Church are rigourous one of which you must have a verifiable miracle attributed to the intercession of the Saint. Look at St. Bernadette of Lourdes, Padre Pio … read their biographies. If you do you will find something in common … is that they were very ordinary people no different than you or I yet different in how they responded to God’s prompting.

 

[Brenda4God]

I have Protestant friends like Bengalfan who say they believe in the Real Presence. They mean Jesus is really there…spiritually.

I guess that’s better than believing he’s not there at all.

Hmmm. Except that he’s really not there for them because they don’t have holy orders, right?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I know a couple of saintly people too are not even catholics. The best way to argue your point is through a larger picture: the community. Prove that catholic communities are better than than evangelical & buddhist communities.

I’m sorry but whether or not there are good people who do not receive the Eucharist is immaterial to whether or not the Eucharist has efficacious effects.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Jesus Himself tells us that we can judge a tree by the fruit it produces. the RCC has produced a lot of good fruit. but there has been a lot of very visible bad fruit.

I would agree. And it is devilish work when Catholic individuals do not represent the true nature of the Church.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I’m sorry but whether or not there are good people who do not receive the Eucharist is immaterial to whether or not the Eucharist has efficacious effects.

thats because the eucharist isnt really a factor in making catholics better people compared to other benevolent communities out there. it doesnt really prevent a catholic from sinning after the feel-good-hour had expired. i know, I’m surrounded by catholics. like my italian catholic step father starts cursing 5 minutes after leaving church.

 

[ncgolf]

thats because the eucharist isnt really a factor in making catholics better people compared to other benevolent communities out there. it doesnt really prevent a catholic from sinning after the feel-good-hour had expired. i know, I’m surrounded by catholics. like my italian catholic step father starts cursing 5 minutes after leaving church.

Wow … one cursing step-father speaks to the full effects of the Eucharist … now I wonder does he curse because he is Italian or because he is Catholic or does he curse because he is both or does he curse because of some other reason. You really dont give much of a choice. Give me a break.

 

[MarcoPolo]

thats because the eucharist isnt really a factor in making catholics better people compared to other benevolent communities out there. it doesnt really prevent a catholic from sinning after the feel-good-hour had expired. i know, I’m surrounded by catholics. like my italian catholic step father starts cursing 5 minutes after leaving church.

I already addressed your 1 hour theory…

…but the Saints all took the Eucharist. And they are the greatest when it comes to living the fullness of God’s will. What’s the point of trying to start a “they are better than you” argument? I think that’s God’s call. But if you want to think all Catholics are of the bad ilk…I guess that’s your affair. Think so at your own risk!

And of course there are benevolent communities. The Spirit goes where the Spirit wills. Nevertheless, the Eucharist specifically imparts grace, every time, when taken as I described.

 

[AgnosTheist]

IBut if you want to think all Catholics are of the bad ilk…I guess that’s your affair.

NOT AT ALL! I was just saying that Catholics are just like most other people. Thats why the Eucharist isnt really doing anything special.