Real Problem with Isaiah 22 and the Keys

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Ok, as many of you know by now, it’s not uncommon for me to find problems with certain Catholic views on things…Up until very recently, I have accepted the authority of the Pope despite not believing in papal infallibility, but more recently, Orthodox arguments against authority have led me to question that as well.

In this case, however, I am NOT saying that the problem I am about to present means papal authority is wrong…all I am saying is that the common Catholic argument invoking Isaiah 22 may be incorrect (or maybe not!).

As many of you know, in Mathew 16:19, Jesus says to Peter: "19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Now many Catholic apologists, as well as those who oppose Catholic views, have suggested that the “keys” are a reference to Isaiah 22. I am not here to dispute this, as some Orthodox and others seem to have done in the past. I am, however, wondering how Isaiah 22 actually provides the authority the Church claims.

The reason Isaiah 22 is important for Catholics is because a major criticism of papal authority has often been, especially from Protestants, that “Yes, Peter was given authority, but that doesn’t mean his successors were!”

Catholics often then point to Isaiah 22 on this matter, saying that in that passage, the keys are a clear mark of dynastic authority, a mark of an office that must be filled the same way the office of Judas was filled after he killed himself.

Isaiah 22:15-25 reads as follows:

"Thus says the Lord God of hosts: Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is master of the household, and say to him: 16 What right do you have here? Who are your relatives here, that you have cut out a tomb here for yourself, cutting a tomb on the height, and carving a habitation for yourself in the rock? 17 The Lord is about to hurl you away violently, my fellow. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there your splendid chariots shall lie, O you disgrace to your master’s house! 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your post.

20 On that day I will call my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah, 21 and will clothe him with your robe and bind your sash on him. I will commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and no one shall shut; he shall shut, and no one shall open. 23 I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his ancestral house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his ancestral house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. 25 On that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way; it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will perish, for the Lord has spoken."

Here, the “keys” symbolize dynastic succession, as Scott Hahn and others would argue. But, notice that at the very beginning of the story, the previous man who held the position now being given to Eliakim (the one being given the keys), was Shebna. And Shebna had his authority, meaning his keys, taken away from him because of pride. Doesn’t this suggest that authority can be lost? After all, Shebna, who lost his authority, was once the possessor of the keys himself.
 
I say never mind Isaiah 22. It is corroborative. We have a clear, direct statement of Christ to Peter. Who needs more? We have Peter being mentioned 195 times in the NT. The next is 'beloved disciple" John at just 29 times. The rest even less. We see Peter’s shadow healing the sick. Peter walking on water. Jesus telling Peter that Satan has demanded to sift him like wheat. Peter asked to “strengthen your brothers” Peter paying the tax for Jesus and himself. We have Peter silencing the discussion in Acts 15. We have Peter words alone converting 3,000 on the Pentecost. We see Peter alone receiving the vision making all foods clean. It just goes on and on and on. Of the twelve, why only Peter?

Read the Wiki of James Cardinal Gibbons. He voted in favor of infallibility. I dare not consider myself enlightened above him or any of the others who so voted.
 
Here, the “keys” symbolize dynastic succession, as Scott Hahn and others would argue. But, notice that at the very beginning of the story, the previous man who held the position now being given to Eliakim (the one being given the keys), was Shebna. And Shebna had his authority,** meaning his keys**, taken away from him because of pride. Doesn’t this suggest that authority can be lost?** After all, Shebna, who lost his authority, was once the possessor of the keys himself**.
I do not see any evidence that Shebna possessed the keys. Other than your own guesstimate, is there proof in scripture of what you claim? True, he had authority, but unlawful authority, but was it ever given the absolute strength of “keys” that was later conferred to Eliakim?
 
:eek: Justin, I just reviewed your posting history and find that you have submitted several threads relating to this topic, – some of which were very lengthly, and gave you the best of Catholic answers.

And here we go again. The only difference now, is that you are attempting to prove the apologists wrong, rather than continuing to seek for understanding.
 
Ok, as many of you know by now, it’s not uncommon for me to find problems with certain Catholic views on things…Up until very recently, I have accepted the authority of the Pope despite not believing in papal infallibility, but more recently, Orthodox arguments against authority have led me to question that as well.
The reason Isaiah 22 is important for Catholics is because a major criticism of papal authority has often been, especially from Protestants, that "Yes, Peter was given authority, but that doesn’t mean his successors were!
 
Is: 22 I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and no one shall shut; he shall shut, and no one shall open.
This is key to understanding the whole passage of Isaiah.
The former Shebna had authority in the palace, as prime minister. This was not given to him by God, but by man.

However, with God’s bestowal of the* keys* to Eliakim, the prime minister, He is bestowing the Davidic line upon him. The Dynastic Oracle, as it was delivered by Nathan the prophet to David in 2 Sam. 7:12-16, is an “unconditional covenant” bestowed by God which will last forever, and His mercy will never to be withdrawn. We find this repeated in Psalm 89.
2 Sam. 7:12-16 He it is who shall build a house for my name, and I will establish his royal throne forever. I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. If he does wrong, I will reprove him with a human rod and with human punishments; but I will not withdraw my mercy from him as I withdrew it from Saul who was before you. **Your house and your kingdom are firm forever before me; your throne shall be firmly established forever. **

Ps. 89: 4 I have made a covenant with my chosen one; I have sworn to David my servant: I will make your dynasty stand forever and establish your throne through all ages."
29 Forever I will maintain my mercy for him; my covenant with him stands firm.
I will establish his dynasty forever, his throne as the days of the heavens.If his descendants forsake my teaching,do not follow my decrees, If they fail to observe my statutes, do not keep my commandments, I will punish their crime with a rod and their guilt with blows. But I will not take my mercy from him, nor will I betray my bond of faithfulness.
**35 I will not violate my covenant; the promise of my lips I will not alter. **By my holiness I swore once for all, I will never be false to David. His dynasty will continue forever, his throne, like the sun before me. Like the moon it will stand eternal, forever firm like the sky!"
As King born in the line of David with authority to bestow the keys, Jesus gave this to Peter. Note well that this kingdom will last forever, unbroken.

I had traveled to the Holy Land years ago, and knowing how God chooses things that seem incidental to us, I was struck by the fact that the Upper Room of the Last Supper is located ABOVE David’s tomb which is there to this day. Since Jesus had asked the disciples to have THIS room prepared for them, I prayed for understanding as to why He chose it.

The New and Eternal Covenant promised to David in the O.T.was now being fulfilled in that Upper Room with Jesus’s words instituting it at the Last Supper. Not a lower room, or an adjacent room, but one directly above David’s tomb. Awesome! Simply beyond words that I was given the grace to understand this. I am not even sure whether I can put it into words, so I ask that the Holy Spirit confirm to whoever is reading this, the beauty of it.

Therefore, the succession does not end with Peter, but is forever established according to God’s sworn decree.
 
:eek: Justin, I just reviewed your posting history and find that you have submitted several threads relating to this topic, – some of which were very lengthly, and gave you the best of Catholic answers.

And here we go again. The only difference now, is that you are attempting to prove the apologists wrong, rather than continuing to seek for understanding.
The line I omitted from my response to the OP: “Are you looking for reasons to leave, or to stay?”

I think that the OP is examining this bit of apologetics in a vacuum. This association with Isaiah 22 did not occur last week! It has been noted and employed most likely ever since the Apostles and early Christians had to make a persuasive argument with the Palestinian Jews, whom they sought to convert. As well, let us recall how Jesus “opened their (Apostles) minds to the scriptures” (Luke 24:45) Well, Isaiah 22 was included in those scriptures, was it not?

OP is clearly wrestling with granting intellectual assent to the origin, history and teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

While no offense is intended, the following is posed as illustrative of the nature of the search for the One Church. The Orthodox Churches call to the OP. But this poses another set of hurdles to overcome: Which Orthodox? How many councils to they recognize? Eastern or Oriental Orthodox? Which Patriarchate? Which biblical canon?

The OP’s search may not be ending, but only beginning.
 
Ok, as many of you know by now, it’s not uncommon for me to find problems with certain Catholic views on things…Up until very recently, I have accepted the authority of the Pope despite not believing in papal infallibility, but more recently, Orthodox arguments against authority have led me to question that as well.

In this case, however, I am NOT saying that the problem I am about to present means papal authority is wrong…all I am saying is that the common Catholic argument invoking Isaiah 22 may be incorrect (or maybe not!).

As many of you know, in Mathew 16:19, Jesus says to Peter: "19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Now many Catholic apologists, as well as those who oppose Catholic views, have suggested that the “keys” are a reference to Isaiah 22. I am not here to dispute this, as some Orthodox and others seem to have done in the past. I am, however, wondering how Isaiah 22 actually provides the authority the Church claims.

The reason Isaiah 22 is important for Catholics is because a major criticism of papal authority has often been, especially from* Protestants, that “Yes, Peter was given authority, but that doesn’t mean his successors were!”*

Catholics often then point to Isaiah 22 on this matter, saying that in that passage, the keys are a clear mark of dynastic authority, a mark of an office that must be filled the same way the office of Judas was filled after he killed himself.

Isaiah 22:15-25 reads as follows:

"Thus says the Lord God of hosts: Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is master of the household, and say to him: 16 What right do you have here? Who are your relatives here, that you have cut out a tomb here for yourself, cutting a tomb on the height, and carving a habitation for yourself in the rock? 17 The Lord is about to hurl you away violently, my fellow. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there your splendid chariots shall lie, O you disgrace to your master’s house! 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your post.

20 On that day I will call my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah, 21 and will clothe him with your robe and bind your sash on him. I will commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 **I will place on his shoulder the key **of the house of David; he shall open, and no one shall shut; he shall shut, and no one shall open. 23 I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his ancestral house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his ancestral house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. 25 On that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way; it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will perish, for the Lord has spoken."

Here, the *"*keys" symbolize dynastic succession, as Scott Hahn and others would argue. But, notice that at the very beginning of the story, the previous man who held the position now being given to Eliakim (the one being given the keys), was Shebna. And Shebna had his authority, meaning his keys, taken away from him because of pride. Doesn’t this suggest that authority can be lost? After all, Shebna, who lost his authority, was once the possessor of the keys himself.
Re: dynastic succession

Since Jesus said His kingdom will have no end, keys to His kingdom without end, means the authority given to Peter, doesn’t end either, with Peter’s death. It must get passed on, Do you see that?

Peter’s successors, are the bishop of Rome. And that succession of authority can only end when Jesus ends it. Not the protests of the Protestants, nor the Orthodox or any other non Catholic.
 
OP is clearly wrestling with granting intellectual assent to the origin, history and teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The OP’s search may not be ending, but only beginning.
That is so sad, isn’t it? It would be good for us to give thanks to God for our wonderful gift of faith. I offer the Baltimore Catechism’s Act of faith.

“O my God! I firmly believe that Thou art one God in three Divine persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; I believe that Thy Divine Son became man, and died for our sins, and that he will come to, judge the living and the dead**. I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches, because Thou hast revealed them**, who canst neither deceive nor be deceived.”

Whenever someone came to Jesus, He praised their faith. So simple. The intellect can never have enough of searching. There eventually has to be an assent that believes without evidence or factual research, simply because of God’s revelation to us in Jesus.
 
…Whenever someone came to Jesus, He praised their faith. So simple. The intellect can never have enough of searching. There eventually has to be an assent that believes without evidence or factual research, simply because of God’s revelation to us in Jesus.
Indeed. As I noted in my exegesis of John 6 and the Bread of Life discourse, Jesus does this again and again: " “either believe what I say no matter what your material senses or reason (“the flesh”) tell you or have no part in me.”
 
…Here, the “keys” symbolize dynastic succession, as Scott Hahn and others would argue. But, notice that at the very beginning of the story, the previous man who held the position now being given to Eliakim (the one being given the keys), was Shebna. And Shebna had his authority, meaning his keys, taken away from him because of pride. Doesn’t this suggest that authority can be lost? After all, Shebna, who lost his authority, was once the possessor of the keys himself.
The keys in Isaiah symbolize the office of steward and the authority granted to the person holding that office. In terms of succession, the office was passed down from generation to generation, because each generation needed to be benefitted from it.

In the situation you described, the authority of the office of steward was not lost, but only transferred from Shebna to Eliakim (i.e., from one Jew to another). Each time a new pope is elected, the authority of the papacy is transferred from one Catholic to another. Therefore, I do not see how the situation involving Shebna indicates that the authority of the office of either the steward or the pope can be lost. All this shows is that a person eventually ceases being the one to hold an office (and therefore this person stops being able to wield the office’s authority), but someone else then steps in to take over (and therefore the authority of the office continues).
 
Originally Posted by jinc1019
…Here, the “keys” symbolize dynastic succession, as Scott Hahn and others would argue. But, notice that at the very beginning of the story, the previous man who held the position now being given to Eliakim (the one being given the keys), was Shebna. And Shebna had his authority, meaning his keys, taken away from him because of pride. Doesn’t this suggest that authority can be lost? After all, Shebna, who lost his authority, was once the possessor of the keys himself.
I have to agree with David Filmer in his response shown above. I don’t think it is entirely about succession, but mostly of authority. I say this because in that time there were two schools of pharisaic learning. One was Hilel and the other Shemi (? spelling). Each of these schools had their leader which was called a “FATHER”. This I believe is a word which symbolizes the authority that is given in Isaiah and shown in the teaching authorities in Jerusalem at that time. Each school carried on and had new “Fathers” to teach over time.
mdcpensive1
 
The Church which had the authority to countermand scripture as to circumcision (Acts 15) most certainly had the authority to appoint successors!
 
This is key to understanding the whole passage of Isaiah.

The former Shebna had authority in the palace, as prime minister. This was not given to him by God, but by man.

As King born in the line of David with authority to bestow the keys, Jesus gave this to Peter. Note well that this kingdom will last forever, unbroken.

I had traveled to the Holy Land years ago, and knowing how God chooses things that seem incidental to us, I was struck by the fact that the Upper Room of the Last Supper is located ABOVE David’s tomb which is there to this day. Since Jesus had asked the disciples to have THIS room prepared for them, I prayed for understanding as to why He chose it.
The New and Eternal Covenant
 
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mdcpensive1:
Absolutely…look at the area where the Matthew 16 takes place…Ceasaria Phillipi…site of a massive rock.
Isn’t it a lovely discovery to learn that Christ speaks to us through so many more “coincidences” than just words? For those that have interior ears to hear and discern, may God grant us wisdom and deeper understanding.

I laugh to myself whenever the pundits arrive on the scene trying to intellectualize this scripture by citing the Greek word for “little pebble.” 😃
 
=jinc1019;10096141]Ok, as many of you know by now, it’s not uncommon for me to find problems with certain Catholic views on things…Up until very recently, I have accepted the authority of the Pope despite not believing in papal infallibility, but more recently, Orthodox arguments against authority have led me to question that as well.
In this case, however, I am NOT saying that the problem I am about to present means papal authority is wrong…all I am saying is that the common Catholic argument invoking Isaiah 22 may be incorrect (or maybe not!).
As many of you know, in Mathew 16:19, Jesus says to Peter: "19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Now many Catholic apologists, as well as those who oppose Catholic views, have suggested that the “keys” are a reference to Isaiah 22. I am not here to dispute this, as some Orthodox and others seem to have done in the past. I am, however, wondering how Isaiah 22 actually provides the authority the Church claims
The reason Isaiah 22 is important for Catholics is because a major criticism of papal authority has often been, especially from Protestants, that “Yes, Peter was given authority, but that doesn’t mean his successors were!”
Catholics often then point to Isaiah 22 on this matter, saying that in that passage, the keys are a clear mark of dynastic authority, a mark of an office that must be filled the same way the office of Judas was filled after he killed himself.
Isaiah 22:15-25 reads as follows:
"Thus says the Lord God of hosts: Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is master of the household, and say to him: 16 What right do you have here? Who are your relatives here, that you have cut out a tomb here for yourself, cutting a tomb on the height, and carving a habitation for yourself in the rock? 17 The Lord is about to hurl you away violently, my fellow. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there your splendid chariots shall lie, O you disgrace to your master’s house! 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your post.
20 On that day I will call my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah, 21 and will clothe him with your robe and bind your sash on him. I will commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and no one shall shut; he shall shut, and no one shall open. 23 I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his ancestral house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his ancestral house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. 25 On that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way; it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will perish, for the Lord has spoken."
Here, the “keys” symbolize dynastic succession, as Scott Hahn and others would argue. But, notice that at the very beginning of the story, the previous man who held the position now being given to Eliakim (the one being given the keys), was Shebna. And Shebna had his authority, meaning his keys, taken away from him because of pride. Doesn’t this suggest that authority can be lost? After all, Shebna, who lost his authority, was once the possessor of the keys himself.
Very clever; but also illogical IMO:)
WHY?

1 God who is both “perfect” Mt. 5:48 and “consistant” Mal. 3:6
  1. Has always chosen [John.15: 16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you”] men that He placed in charge and give great authority and powers too.
  2. If as some calim as is necessary for every framework of competring Faiths God did not do as is clearly evident in Mt. 16:19 He would have had to intend for His “One God; One Faith and One Church” to end with the demise of the Apostles. A IMPOSSIBLE to hold position.
  3. Because of the God given mandate in Mt 28:19-20 cf:TEACH THE ENTIRE WORLD WHAT I TAUGHT YOU! absolutely requires Succession as it exist today
  4. Peter in calling for a replacement of the deceased Judas /traitor [Acts 1:25] Followed by Christ Himself ADDING Paul to their ranks is both biblical and historical evidence that this is indeed God’s objective and plan.
So while I persoanlly hold to Isaiah 22 being a fulfilled Prophesy; it’s not needed to prove Papal Succession is God’s Will and reality.

God Bless,

Pat /PJM
 
I do not see any evidence that Shebna possessed the keys. Other than your own guesstimate, is there proof in scripture of what you claim? True, he had authority, but unlawful authority, but was it ever given the absolute strength of “keys” that was later conferred to Eliakim?
That is how Dr. Scott Hahn described the event. In other words, the REASON Eliakim has the keys is because he filled an office (which in modern times is the papal office). The keys denote succession, that’s the point. If you say that Shebna never had the keys, then what office did he have? He had the same title, same level of authority, etc. They both were basically prime ministers to the king…How does it make sense that one would have keys and one would not?
 
I say never mind Isaiah 22. It is corroborative. We have a clear, direct statement of Christ to Peter. Who needs more? We have Peter being mentioned 195 times in the NT. The next is 'beloved disciple" John at just 29 times. The rest even less. We see Peter’s shadow healing the sick. Peter walking on water. Jesus telling Peter that Satan has demanded to sift him like wheat. Peter asked to “strengthen your brothers” Peter paying the tax for Jesus and himself. We have Peter silencing the discussion in Acts 15. We have Peter words alone converting 3,000 on the Pentecost. We see Peter alone receiving the vision making all foods clean. It just goes on and on and on. Of the twelve, why only Peter?

Read the Wiki of James Cardinal Gibbons. He voted in favor of infallibility. I dare not consider myself enlightened above him or any of the others who so voted.
As I mentioned before, I am not saying this somehow says there is no infallibility…I am only bringing it up because many Catholic apologists use this as a central argument. This was one of the primary arguments of Catholic apologists during the Reformation trying to stop the split, and Dr. Scott Hahn, one of the most prominent American apologists, has elevated it as the most important point on papal infallibility. It was one of the reasons he converted! So I am not the one saying this is important, Catholic Church leaders and apologists are.
 
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