Reality Check: Are you an obedient Catholic, or an unfaithful heterodox?

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  1. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.—Allocution “Nemo vestrum,” July 26, 1855.
The Church at Vatican II in the Declaration Dignitatis Humanae stated the following about the moral duty of men and societies towards the true religion (aka Catholicism):Religious freedom, in turn, which men demand as necessary to fulfill their duty to worship God, has to do with immunity from coercion in civil society. Therefore [the Vatican Council] **leaves untouched **traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies towards the true religion and towards the one Church of Christ. The explanation of the great theologian Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman from his Letter to the Duke of Norfolk will be referenced as Newman spoke on this theme:

When we turn to the Allocution, which is the ground of its being put into the Syllabus, what do we find there? First, that the Pope was speaking, not of States universally, but of one particular State, Spain, definitely Spain; secondly, that he was not noting the erroneous proposition directly, or categorically, but was protesting against the breach in many ways of the Concordat on the part of the Spanish government; further, **that he was NOT referring to any work containing the said proposition, NOR contemplating any proposition at all; NOR, on the other hand, using any word of condemnation whatever, NOR using any harsher terms of the Government in question than an expression of “his wonder and distress”. **And again, taking the Pope’s remonstrance as it stands, is it any great cause of complaint to Englishmen, who so lately were severe in their legislation upon Unitarians, Catholics, unbelievers, and others, that the Pope merely does not think it expedient for every state from this time forth to tolerate every sort of religion on its territory, and to disestablish the Church at once? For this is all that he denies. As in the instance in the foregoing section, he does but deny a universal, which the “erroneous proposition” asserts without any explanation.
  1. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.—Allocution “Acerbissimum,” Sept. 27, 1852.
The error is presuming that in a Catholic country it is wise to promulgate civil laws to declare the non-Catholic to have public exercise of their religion. Vatican II, with the subject of religious liberty, dealt with the rights of individuals to freedom from coersion from practicing their religion provided that they were not disturbing the public order. Here is how public order was defined by DH:The right to religious freedom is exercised in human society: hence its exercise is subject to certain regulatory norms. In the use of all freedoms the moral principle of personal and social responsibility is to be observed. In the exercise of their rights, individual men and social groups are bound by the moral law to have respect both for the rights of others and for their own duties toward others and for the common welfare of all. Men are to deal with their fellows in justice and civility.Furthermore, society has the right to defend itself against possible abuses committed on the pretext of freedom of religion. It is the special duty of government to provide this protection. However, government is not to act in an arbitrary fashion or in an unfair spirit of partisanship. Its action is to be controlled by juridical norms which are in conformity with the objective moral order. These norms arise out of the need for the effective safeguard of the rights of all citizens and for the peaceful settlement of conflicts of rights, also out of the need for an adequate care of genuine public peace, which comes about when men live together in good order and in true justice, and finally out of the need for a proper guardianship of public morality.
 
  1. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism.—Allocution “Nunquam fore,” Dec. 15, 1856.
I think this speaks for itself. look at the indifferentism and corrupt morals of western society.
  1. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization.—Allocution “Jamdudum cernimus,” March 18, 1861.
Again, liberalism and modernism have always been condemned.

Some of the stuff posted comes from here matt1618.freeyellow.com/syllabus.html
 
**
=st_felicity]Feather…
I’m sorry that the term “non-Catholic Christian” bothered you. I actually typed “Protestant” first and then, remembering that some Christians don’t consider themselves “Protestant” or “Catholic”, hought it would be the most fitting. I actually posted a thread a while back that asked for a definition (I believe I titled it: Define Protestant, please) and was told by a “Protestant” that “Non-Catholic Christian” would be the most correct term to use. Do you have a better one–that can differentiate Christians in the Catholic Church and those that are not?
.**I can address this question. Just my opinion, we are all Christians who believe in Christ and that He died for our sins that we might have eternal life. Qualifying some as more or better or more inclusive than others merely splits Christians into different segments to so to speak war with one another. We are Christians all and I see no one as being more or better or more inclusive. I would wish all Christians could live in peace with one another and at peace with the different customs. Having said, perhaps I do not belong in Apologetics. Probably I am wishing too much for peace to even belong on any religious board.

feather
 
feather said:
**I can address this question. Just my opinion, we are all Christians who believe in Christ and that He died for our sins that we might have eternal life. Qualifying some as more or better or more inclusive than others merely splits Christians into different segments to so to speak war with one another. We are Christians all and I see no one as being more or better or more inclusive. I would wish all Christians could live in peace with one another and at peace with the different customs. Having said, perhaps I do not belong in Apologetics. Probably I am wishing too much for peace to even belong on any religious board.

feather**

Unfortunately, saying that other Christian ecclesial communities and churches have the fullness of the Truth is indifferent at best and deceptive at worst. It’s not about customs, it’s about what is true. The fact of the matter is they do not have the whole Truth of Christ. For one, they are missing the Eucharist as well as other sacraments. If we truly love them we will tell them the Truth so they can partake in the fullness of Christ as us Catholics have been so blessed to have in the Church. Do you think Jesus would want them to miss out on any part of His Truth?
 
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FiremanFrank:
Fully Obedient (Orthodox) Catholic

Thank goodness for Confession and prayer and Jesus love and forgiveness. I do the best I can to always follow the Church, seek forgiveness when I don’t, and call on His strength and Divine Mercy to keep me doing His Will not my own.

God Bless,
Donna
:gopray2:
 
feather said:
** Qualifying some as more or better or more inclusive than others… We are Christians all and I see no one as being more or better or more inclusive.** But that is not the point in the post. We are not talking about Christians of different churches, but the doctrine and fullness that Christ gave to His Church. Therefore, sects which broke off, or groups that just established a church, don’t have that FULL INCLUSION.
I would wish all Christians could live in peace with one another and at peace with the different customs.
feather
We can, but this has nothing to do with st_felicity’s post.

Kotton 👍
 
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FiremanFrank:
Fully Obedient (Orthodox) Catholic
I accept all teachings of the Catholic Church. I used to be a CINO and after searching I came back to the Church. When Truth hits you full in the face there’s no going back.

God Bless!
 
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FiremanFrank:
Dear Greer,

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, I appreciate it.

But as far as morals go, there ARE NO grey areas.

Now you might “believe” that there are some, but in all reality my friend - there aren’t any.

What? Nobody have a copy of the $6 Catechism?

And BTW, I took a class on Moral Theology by a wonderful Priest who fully understood Church Teaching. And I can tell you this, Revealed Truth exists - and there aren’t any “grey” lines to speak of.

If this were not true, then this truly wouldn’t be the Catholic Church. We’d just be another Protestant church whose beliefs waivers in the wind. That isn’t what Jesus Christ left us with, and that IS NOT what we have.

Thank God!

So I guess that your a “NO” then also?

I’m neither - I can’t choose either alternative, because the choice is unduly narrow. It’s fine for some things, but not for beings with a capacity for Christ, IOW, living men.​

Too bad …

frank

There are clear principles on certain matters - if there were no difficulties or ambiguities in seeing how they were applicable in particular cases, there would be:​

no casuistry;
no history of disputes between rigorists, laxists, probabilists, & equiprobabilists;
No controversies regarding missionary adaptation, such as the Chinese Rites controversy;
no controversy over the meaning, limits, and rightfulness of mental reservations;
No need for Raymond of Penyaforte or St. Alphonsus to write at length on moral theology.

It is because the obligation of veracity, the limits of missionary adaptation, the licitness of dancing, the extent of the Pope’s dispensing power, and more things, have been “grey areas”, that moral theology has been so necessary.

The Catechism won’t solve cases of conscience - it’s not meant to; it won’t tell the individual in a specific situation how far he can go in using mental reservations withour tottering into plain mendacity. It’s not meant for that. And it is not a substitute for the virtue of prudence, any more than knowledge is, whether of dogma or of moral theology.

No amount of knowledge of theology and doctrine can replace prudence, or make one more sensitive to the promptings of God through conscience than one is. So knowledge, is not enough. Wisdom too is needed, and grace above all, to render us as responsive to Christ as we are meant to be. But a purely extrinsic approach - “Do this, or else”; “You aren’t a Catholic unless you believe this, this, this, this…” - which takes no account of the individuality of each human person as a unique object of God’s creative Love, is just not enough 😦

People are not machines - they are organisms, growing beings, beings who are meant to grow in wisdom and insight up into the fullness of Christ. I think your approach is too mechanical, and, legalistic 😦

So, I stand by what I said. ##
 
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Genesis315:
Unfortunately, saying that other Christian ecclesial communities and churches have the fullness of the Truth is indifferent at best and deceptive at worst. It’s not about customs, it’s about what is true. The fact of the matter is they do not have the whole Truth of Christ. For one, they are missing the Eucharist as well as other sacraments. If we truly love them we will tell them the Truth so they can partake in the fullness of Christ as us Catholics have been so blessed to have in the Church. Do you think Jesus would want them to miss out on any part of His Truth?
To be quite honest genesis

I don’t think “they” are missing out on anything. I have only ever seen with one eye so I am not missing seeing with two… I’ve never had it so I can’t miss it. That is a parable with meaning. And you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. You can’t “make” people see, but you can “lead” them into the truth. I don’t see much leading but I do see a lot of pushing. In my experience pushing doesn’t work.

feather
 
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feather:
To be quite honest genesis

I don’t think “they” are missing out on anything. I have only ever seen with one eye so I am not missing seeing with two… I’ve never had it so I can’t miss it. That is a parable with meaning. And you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. You can’t “make” people see, but you can “lead” them into the truth. I don’t see much leading but I do see a lot of pushing. In my experience pushing doesn’t work.

feather
If you think that one is not missing anything, for example, by not having the Eucharist, than you don’t understand what the Eucharist is.

Anyway, we can tell them the Truth, and let the Holy Spirit take it from there. Telling them falsehood does no one any good. Does Christ want us to allow our brethren to be deceived? Doubtful.
 
I believe all that the Church teaches because I believe in Her authority to teach it. That said, when it comes to threads that are
“either/or,” “heaven or hell,” I think it best to leave it up to Our Lord to divide the sheep from the goats and the wheat from the tares.
 
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AuntMartha:
Surely you don’t mean without sin, do you? What would we need confession for in that case?

Aunt Martha
Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others:

Luk 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

Luk 18:12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’

James 2:8 If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well.

Jam 2:9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Jam 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

Jam 2:11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.” If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Jam 2:12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.

Jam 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.

Obedience in belief is incomplete and empty, without perfect love as well. And perfect love is incompatible with anything less than complete sinlessness. So - to claim full obedience, is to claim to be sinless.

Therefore, to acknowledge that one is not sinless, implies that one is not perfectly obedient. ##
 
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st_felicity:
God alone judges…All we can do is say “yes, it is my INTENTION to do God’s will–even at the sacrifice of my own.” Or we can say, “No, I know what God says, and I think I know better–after-all, he made me this way…”

I don’t think those that struggle, question, etc…are by definition less orthodox. It all depends on what motivates them–is it self-serving, or is it God-serving? Only the individual and God know (and God knows better!). INTENTION is everything…and I think many of those who may appear heterodox are simply struggling Christians–that is their cross to bear–and it is a blessing as long as the search for truth continues rather than slipping into lukewarmness…or obstinance…

Exactly 😃 🙂 - and don’t the self-styled orthodox have their crosses ?​

That is exactly why IMHO we shoud drop these divisive labels and concentrate on mutual love, since “love is the fulfilling [and completion, presumably] of the law”. ##
 
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feather:
To be quite honest genesis

I don’t think “they” are missing out on anything. I have only ever seen with one eye so I am not missing seeing with two… I’ve never had it so I can’t miss it…
I know I was so grateful for the grace God bestowed upon me when I finally (years after my conversion) came to understand the gift that is the Eucharist. I did not “Know” that was what I was missing–but when I received Him, I wished I had known Him in the Eucharist all along. I thank God everyday that my eyes were opened and I want others to know the Truth and be a part of the fullness of Truth in the Catholic Church.

That is why I post and explain and ask and converse here…not to FORCE anyone into Catholicism, but to hopefully be a vehicle of God’s grace and help in my small way to bring that beauty to another soul. Sometimes I’m forceful, sometimes I’m gentle…I am like that because sometimes I needed understanding and Christian love, and sometimes I needed a kick in the pants–to get me where I am in my love for God and the Catholic Church.

I want to love my neighbor as myself…to do so means that I want heaven for my neighbor–and I want him to have his best chance at getting there. I am certain that his best chance is in obediently following the guidelines of our Good Mother, the Catholic Church. And that is why posters like me continue to post and comment and correct errors in theology (and are sometimes corrected ourselves!😛 ). It is because we are trying to love our neighbor as ourselves.
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Exactly 😃 🙂 - and don’t the self-styled orthodox have their crosses ?

Yes…we all have our crosses…but I certaily do believe in obstinate sin–those that claim to be “good” Catholics who aren’t–and those fall on both sides of the aisle–Orthodox and those that are not.
 
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st_felicity:
All of your quotes deal with the Church not FORCING anyone to follow their teachings. The Church believes in the FREE WILL of all mankind. But if you profess Catholicism–you are obligated to practice what you profess–And Catholicism is very clear on what it professes to be TRUTH.

Otherwise…that’s heterodoxy.

Not heterodoxy, necessarily - hypocrisy would also be applicable to what is described.​

They are plenty of ways of violating the free will of another without having recourse to the rack, the stake, or excommunication: one can manipulate people instead.

Especially if they have few or no means of defending themselves against one who isprepared to act so unfairly. All sorts of pressures can be brought to bear on the young in particular: fear of authority, fear of not being accepted by one’s peers, fear of punishment, fear of eternal punishment, fear of losing one’s parents’ approval…a priest can make a child’s life a living Hell; or an adult’s, if the adult is impressionable enough. It’s all a matter of “pushing the right buttons”.

So one can perfectly well have a completely non-existent faith, with the outward profession, and the outward practice. This is a good way to ensure someone’s exit from the Church. Without living faith, all one has is a corpse. The Bible contains many denunciations of such empty religion.

“Churchianity” is not enough - it is entirely compatible with the most degraded and amoral and legalistic and superficial “religiosity” (what Paul VI meant by the word thus translated, is not what is meant in everyday English usage by “religiosity”) one can imagine: but that, is not Christianity. ##
 
I was going to say that my faults are my own, but then it occurred to me that even our faults are gifts from God. :hmmm:
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Not heterodoxy, necessarily - hypocrisy would also be applicable to what is described.

Yeah…I get your point…and I’m coming to the conclusion it is hypocrisy that fits the bill better…Can someone give a definition of “heterodoxy” that is as unbiased as possible?..I think that’s where I’m fumbling.
 
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st_felicity:
I know I was so grateful for the grace God bestowed upon me when I finally (years after my conversion) came to understand the gift that is the Eucharist. I did not “Know” that was what I was missing–but when I received Him, I wished I had known Him in the Eucharist all along. I thank God everyday that my eyes were opened and I want others to know the Truth and be a part of the fullness of Truth in the Catholic Church.

That is why I post and explain and ask and converse here…not to FORCE anyone into Catholicism, but to hopefully be a vehicle of God’s grace and help in my small way to bring that beauty to another soul. Sometimes I’m forceful, sometimes I’m gentle…I am like that because sometimes I needed understanding and Christian love, and sometimes I needed a kick in the pants–to get me where I am in my love for God and the Catholic Church.

I want to love my neighbor as myself…to do so means that I want heaven for my neighbor–and I want him to have his best chance at getting there. I am certain that his best chance is in obediently following the guidelines of our Good Mother, the Catholic Church. And that is why posters like me continue to post and comment and correct errors in theology (and are sometimes corrected ourselves!😛 ). It is because we are trying to love our neighbor as ourselves.
And you do very well felicity

I was born Roman Catholic and have always had the joy of the Eucharist, the beauty of Mass. At present, I have not been attending church for a while and I sorely miss Mass and the Eucharist. I can fully understand why you would want others to have that joy as well. You want them to have what they are missing. I was just saying you can’t miss what you never had. But any person you have brought to the joy of the Eucharist would then know what they had been missing.

I would dearly love for all people to be one religion and of course being Roman Catholic, that would be the one I would choose. Imagine, worshiping as one.
 
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