Realizing that asking for marriage advice on CAF is dangerous

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Another issue is that there are marriages that are null and invalid. Unfortunately I come from an area of Europe where the Church has done a really bad job by trying to hide this fact. Many people have no idea that their marriages may not be valid, and their priests will not lift a finger to help them by informing them and sending them to a Marriage Tribunal of the Church to investigate the validity of their marriage. When the case is one of an abusive marriage - not necessarily physical abuse, but maybe one spouse is immature, psychologically incapable of marriage, never intended his marriage as a lifetime commitment, does not want children and will prevent the natural purpose of the marriage related to being open to conceiving new life - in such cases the failure of the representatives of the Church to speak up only helps the abuser and adds to the torments of the abused spouse. When someone shows up at these forums totally disoriented, it often makes me wonder: where was his parish priest? Some people never went to their parish priest for advice, but many people did, and they were sent away empty-handed, in the name of “saving marriages”. They were not informed of the very teachings of our Church, of our Canon Laws, of the very existence of a Marriage Tribunal that could investigate their marriage. The situation seems better in the USA, but even in the USA there are a bunch of people who apparently believe that they should stay in abusive situations and even in invalid marriages. In my opinion, it never hurts correcting such people in accordance with the Magisterium of the Church, and sending them to spiritual advice from their own parish priests, Canon lawyers and Marriage Tribunals. I see the role of this online forum as positive in this respect as well, in the respect of educating people in conformity with the teachings of our Church.

 

[manualman]

An interesting thing became very clear to me on reading this thread.

We ALL bring our OWN life experiences into every situation we encounter and we ALL unconciously make assumptions that this other person’s experience is much like ours.

This IS a problem I’d not considered before and will ponder on for quite some time (like my endless commute home tonight!). For starters, I think from now on I will be careful to point out my own potential biases UP FRONT before offering advice to those asking for it.

What thinks y’all? Don’t you think if we all did that on hard discernment issues the OP would have an easier time deciding how much the advice is flavored with assumptions?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I agree 100%, Manualman.

 

[LongingForLight]

I think it’s great that people can ask for advice online from devout Catholics. And I think the charitable thing to do is to assume that the person is describing the situation honestly and fairly, to the best of their ability, unless there is reason to suspect otherwise. I have seen responders question, fairly gently, about if there is another side to the story, before responding to what was written - and I think this is great.

More importantly, those asking for advice seem to come from a very devout perspective and seem to attach to the most demanding pieces of advice - and generally seem to share the story in the most neutral way they can, given that they’ve only lived one side of it. We often find out, later in the thread, that there was more to the story - but it made their spouse look even more bad, so it was left out.

I’ve been in a situation where I had no one to turn to for marriage advice. My few close friendships with people I trusted were all very much ones where I listened and they talked - which was fine with me in the past, since I loved to be able to help. I had other friendships with people I enjoyed knowing, but I couldn’t trust their advice on this matter; they did not have an appropriate understanding of marriage. And the rest of the friendships I had were superficial; in fact, the nature of the problem made it very hard for me to make time to talk with anyone without feeling guilty.

Finally I had to talk to people, as this marriage problem started to affect my children. It took me a long time to find anyone with a pro-marriage perspective who would be charitable enough to take what I said at face-value, or at least give me advice based on the idea that I was telling the truth, even if they added on advice assuming that I was lying, and making assumptions about what, exactly, I was lying about. I started with the Internet because I didn’t want to hurt any potential friendships that my husband might form with people we knew in real life. Then I moved to women at work, and found the same caustic attitudes - or, if they were charitable at all, recommendations of divorce after I explained only the smallest, least serious portion of the problem! Then I moved to friends, and fortunately it actually helped their attitudes towards my DH since they sympathized with him in what they thought was happening, although it harmed their relationships with me - assuming that I was bad-mouthing my husband and I probably caused the problem (I can understand where they are coming from, and they did still respond with great charity despite their assumptions).

Eventually, one couple took “my side” - although my DH was actually on the same side as me too, and for the entire time, strangely enough; that I was working so hard to fix what was happening seemed to encourage him that the problem was fixable and that he was important to our family. For the longest time, DH was the only one who supported me (at least verbally) in looking for answers about how to deal with his problematic behavior . . . but I had trouble with trusting him, because he wasn’t showing it with his actions and behavior (I now know why). I wonder now if the only reason this couple started trusting me was because they saw symptoms of the problem while babysitting my children. The wife made several comments after caring for our girls that indicated that she thought something was a bit wrong. After that point, they were able to respond to what I was saying rather than what they had been assuming - and I was able to take the steps we needed.

Anyways, my point is that I’ve been in a situation where I really needed advice. Online advice had many advantages and protected DH from consequences of complaining to friends - but there were no charitable people I could find who were willing to take my words at face value. If I had known about CAF a year ago, I honestly think we would have resolved the problem much more quickly (which is probably why God hid you guys from me . . . He had His reasons for all of this, and I think I know some of them - had things not been as painful as they were, I and DH never would have reaped the harvest we did from this experience).

This doesn’t mean CAF as a group doesn’t have room to improve. I know I am guilty of giving too much specific advice, rather than pointing the way to those who are more qualified to give advice, or good resources, or to God and prayer. But still, I think there are many situations where CAF may be the best resource out there for marriage problems.

 

[NDXUFan]

You sound like a very nice young lady. And you are right, one should not denigrate one’s spouse.

I used to believe that also. So I never told my family anything bad about my husband. Or the neighbors. I never complained about him at all. I was raised to only build him up. So when he finally walked out on me, everyone was surprised. They didn’t know things were that bad. And when he wanted to come back they counselled me to forgive and give another chance. Because they didn’t know the whole story. Lies can kill.

I let him back. Eventually I finally started talking to other people. It saved my life. You see the “experts” we went to for counselling really didn’t give me good advice. The best advice I ever got was from women who had walked in my very shoes. You will learn in life that not everyone with a plaque on their office wall knows what they are talking about.

I’m sorry you find the very real and too common problems discussed openly here upsetting. As you get older though, these problems won’t be discussed on message boards. They will come from friends sobbing in your kitchen or calling you on the phone in the middle of the night because they might not have anyone else to turn to.

You can avoid reading about it here, or you can learn from other people’s mistakes. You can see that many of us married for all the right reasons and did “all the right things” and it still went badly. That’s life. I do think most of the young people watching have family issues somewhere in their lives that realistically mirror or surpass what is discussed here. Anywhere you have people, you have sin and people struggling to deal with that. Sugarcoating life might sound nice but it doesn’t prepare one. I wish I knew more before I got married because I would have made very different choices.

And while it may not be “Christian” to talk about a spouse’s problem to strangers, to some it is preferable to talking about it to a neighbor or friend or trusted family member who will remember long after the problem is “fixed” what happened and the spouse will unwittingly be around someone who is looking at them with different eyes. Which really is better? Mr. Never Bathes will never have to talk to me. If his wife can get him to change, her marriage will be better and he can go about his daily business without people he knows knowing exactly how unfair he was deliberately being to his wife.

There is something to be said for having a place where people can vent anonymously so they don’t explode at home. Is it better to vent at the spouse? Is THAT better for a marriage? Ask the guy whose wife went to the Philippines if it would have been better if he had waited and reamed her on the phone instead of coming here with his doubts. Many of us set his mind at ease. And his wife is none the wiser the dark things going through his mind.

The older you get the more you’ll see that life isn’t totally black and white. Many of us live in gray land. Even if we don’t like it. I learn a lot from the people here.

But perhaps they should break the forum into two fora: Happy Families and Bad Families. That way people who don’t want to read about problems can stay in one area and talk about how great things are, and those who are at their wits ends can post in a place where they can be listened to. The reader can decide where they want to go.

I’m happy for you that your father was the kind of man who deserved to be lifted up by your mother. But do know that you can also learn from women whose wisdom and experience comes from great pain and sadness. Right now you don’t know which way your own life will go. Be open to all those who have something to share.

Having worked as a police officer with a background in Psychology, abusers do not change, unless thru the grace of God. The reality is that no one knows what goes on behind closed doors, except those two people who lived that life. The abuser shows a nice face to friends, neighbors, and the public. This is why people are shocked when the abuser leaves or the abused spouse is seriously injured. In fact, most abusers are mentally ill before the marriage has taken place. I have listened to certain invividuals, including some in the church, that believe one day the person decided to become mentally ill. From experience, I am going to tell you it does not work that way. As stated by Pope John II, most marriages fail because there was something wrong in the beginning.

The abused spouse will always try to satisy the abuser, it never works. People will say, “Be more patient, caring, holy, etc.” Those previous responses are responses that are devoid of reality.

 

[LongingForLight]

It’s an matter of trust. If my husband were coming to a message forum and telling a group of strangers about all my issues, I would be hurt beyond words. To do such a thing to anyone strikes me as extremely lacking in fundamental Christian charity; to do such a thing to one’s own spouse is unbelievable. How can that possibly be healthy for a marriage?

When we were going through marriage problems, I posted frequently about the problems online. However, EACH and EVERY time I asked his permission first, unless I’d previously obtained blanket permission to post to that group whenever already. And I frequently asked him if he thought what I was posting was accurate, if I was afraid I might be unfairly representing his side. So this isn’t necessarily a trust issue, and there would be no way for others to know if it were unless the poster said or implied that they were hiding their posts from their spouse. Even then, help might truly be needed badly enough that it is worth it to go behind their spouses back; we should be as charitable in our assumptions as we can.

I know when I wrote, I also posted under the assumption that every single thing I wrote would be read by my husband, with great attention to detail, ten or twenty or fifty years later. Given our circumstances, I think my complaints would read like love letters; he knows my frustration came from my strong love for him. I actually reread a few of my old posts occasionally when I want to recover a bit of romantic “spark” I find it encouraging to remember how desperate I was to help him and to save our family and marriage. I see at least some other posters on this forums whose complaints read similarly - I don’t hear venting and anger, but desperation and an eagerness to hold their relationship together.

Granted, there are also some immature posters. But I hate to remove support for those who are doing everything they can because some people are immature. This is true even if the immature people are in the majority.

With all respect: I’m so grateful that I have my mother, who only ever praises her husband in public places.

Also be glad that you have your father, who apparently has never put her in a situation where she needed advice so badly she needed to infringe upon his privacy in order to protect her children, or to determine if he was being abusive. And thank God that He has blessed your parents with good health; even a wonderful husband or wife can do horrible things to their family if they are not well.

Also, I asked my husband where I should go to talk about our problems. He didn’t want me to talk to a priest - the priests know him as well as they know me. He didn’t want me to talk to a friend - my friends are all his friends, as well. But random strangers on the Internet? That was no problem for him. To him, a “public” forum is about as private as you can get. I was actually only able to convince him to go to marriage counseling after pointing out how many random strangers online suggested it - sharing our problems with a counselor also felt too public to him. Maybe this is different from how you see the world, but the person posting may actually be accomodating their spouse’s privacy concerns as much as possible.

You raise good points about the young people reading these threads, and that is a good thing to keep in mind. But a person struggling in their marriage can actually display wonderful graces to the world. All too often I think young people believe marriages are easy, because married people hide their struggles. I know reading other people’s struggles online helped me understand just how salvagable our marriage was, even though it looked at the time like seperation might be the only way to salvage it (as it turned out, the sincere threat of seperation until he got help - or until I was strong enough to bear his weakness - was enough; my husband realized he was an important member of our family, and immediately started to make the necessary changes).

So I very strongly disagree with you, although I think you raise legitimate concerns. I think the potential good done by these threads generally outwieghs the possible harm, and this largely comes from my own experience.

I do think that it would be neat if CAF members could work together to make a guideline for advising people in troubled marriages (or locate a really good, thorough pre-existing Catholic guideline), or a document that we could send people to, with basic advice like: Pray for your spouse, and for wisdom and guidance. Talk to a priest about your situation. Consider counseling - go on your own if your spouse won’t join you. If the situation is truly dangerous, get out of there and resolve it at a distance. Take all advice on the Internet with a grain of salt, and get a second opinion from someone familiar with your situation in real life (or an expert) before making any life-changing decisions based off of that advice (include a helpline number so people in dangerous emergencies can do this).

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Many people who come to messageboards like CAF, do so because they are isolated in their lives. People who have a wide circle of friends can ask their friends for marital, medical advice etc… They have someone to go to when they’re feeling down and alone, who will reassure them and help them look at their lives with perspective. Isolated people don’t have that option and internet boards like this can provide immeasurable comfort and help. The more topics that are banned, the more isolation occurs. Not every problem can or should be solved by calling a professional, and often hearing your peers tell you “you’re not alone, you’re worth something etc.” is the thing that people really need. Sure you don’t have to be given marriage or medical advice to hear those words, but it’s in those difficult moments of life that we often need that reassurance. Banning all of these difficult topics could automatically keep people in need of social contact from reaching out.

I understand that it can be dangerous to give out advice on certain topics, and I can see why topics may have been banned. I personally think that topics of a sxual nature should be restricted to married people/clergy - the way to do that would be to create a subforum just for married/clergy. This doesn’t include quesrion like "why is sx before marriage wrong" which is obviously appropriate for any Catholic adult to read. But NFP, romancing your spouse etc… there is too much ability for the wrong people to either get their kicks, or ideas from well intended advice.

I beleive there is a line to be walked between protecting posters by banning topics and encouraging people to reach out rather than stay in a, isolated world. The more moderators, the easier, and I guess it comes down to how closely CAF can afford to monitor.

 

[Mamselle_Duroc]

Ladies, please, please excuse my lack of clarity in my original post on this thread. Today hasn’t been the best of days, and I’m worn to a thread, so when I wrote my post I was not expressing myself as clearly as I might have. Let me try to clarify as much as I can:

I am not by any means belittling women who are in abusive marriages. I’ve known some, and my heart breaks for them, and the last thing they need is a kid like me lecturing them about the right way to behave.

My post was not directed towards them.

I was writing about the wives who show up on this forum to badmouth their husbands for no justifiable reason… they had a bad day and he made it worse by leaving his dirty socks on the ground, for instance, so they want to get together with some other wives and talk about how obnoxious husbands can be sometime. It was those wives I was asking to set a better example for the young people.

I would never ask women who are in genuine trouble to set a ‘good example’ for young women by pretending their marriage is all fine and dandy. Never in all my life. They wouldn’t be doing young women like me any favors by pretending that abusive marriages are okay. You are setting a good example for us by showing us that if we ever are in such a situation we don’t have to just deal with it. We can find help, and we can get out. Thank you.

But to the women who are simply gathering together to vent some frustration and maybe hear what other husbands do that is so irritating, please… we young girls have a natural inclination to want to get together with our peers and gossip, so please don’t encourage us.

And to all those women who felt I was scolding them for pleading for the help they so desperately needed, please forgive me. That was not my intention at all.

 

[tyuf]

trade9shoes.com

 

[dakotagirl]

There are many topics that should be kept off the boards.Separations, annulments, divorce and others that would be best left for a therapist to answer with the company of his/her spouse.

Oh pshaw. There are too many “shoulds” in the world, already. These topics make for the edification of us.

 

[Jan_Bolbot]

I think it would be very callous to suggest all marriage advice on CAF is wrong and that those who ask for it somehow have an axe to grind. Most people who post don’t need advice, they need someone to listen and they need prayers and support because they are suffering and in pain. To ban that seems cruel.

There is also a very helpful aspect in trying to explain something that has been in your own head and heart for a long time to a stranger. It shows you the logical lapses in your own processing of the situation. In other words, it is a way to explain things to yourself and clarify what you are going through for your own sake.

Of course, not all advice is helpful and some may be dangerous. But there’s an easy way to figure this out. Read the Bible, read the Catechism. If someone is advising you “divorce now!” and you read in the Catechism that divorce is a grave sin, you can disregard what they say.

This is REAL important. Marriage and families are under attack in America and many parts of the world. Families are the building blocks of the Church. Aside from saving the unborn (which is closely related), is there anything more critical than protecting/saving marriages and families?

JB

 

[Ailina]

Is it just me, or are a lot of married people asking for marriage advice (giving a one sided story) and then the responses that validate them get them all riled up and ready for conflict with their spouse?

This is so dangerous. If I were to tell you my side of the story about some of my marriage issues, you guys would be telling me to go to marriage encounter, separate, give him his own medicine, beat him at his game, etc.

This is such a dangerous way of asking for marriage advice! There’s always 2 sides to a story and the truth is somewhere inbetween. Why do CAF people give such distorted marriage advice on a one-sided story? It’s scary to see how many marriages could fail because of bad CAF advice.

Is it just me that thinks this way?

Well…I did come here at first exactly for that: marriage advice. Or precisely, whether I should separate from my wandering and remorseless spouse who had every intention of increasing the number and frequency of wanderings, according to some of his last words to me (something about dating women in our city, on top of the ones he was seeing in other cities already). Not sure how many sides there needs to be to that kind of scenario, unless wanting to point the fingers of blame at me for not being a good enough wife.

As it was, I was so full of shame (there must have been something wrong with ME for him to wander like that, hey?) and a sense of failure, that I couldn’t talk to anyone in real life about it. I kept silent for a year after I found out about my husband’s actiivites. I thought Catholics were not allowed to divorce under ANY circumstances. How was I to speak to a priest about such shameful and embarrassing stuff? You have no idea how excruciating it was. Not all marriages are made in heaven.

Sometimes it is easier asking for opinions from people who might be more objective, or better, had been in my shoes. I didn’t know anyone in real life who had, but forums like this are good for finding people with all kinds of experience, that we can all learn from.

 

[rolltidefan]

I think I am going to add my 2 cents in on this one. First of all, I think the divorce rate will probably increase because as a society now we do have forums and etc. We come to these places to ask complete strangers about our personal life and what we should do with our lives. It just amazes me. Would we just let anybody here babysit our children, just because they are on a “Christian” forum?? Well, my answer is no, as I know most here would say no, so why do we ask for such advice as this here. I understand people need a place to vent. I understand we all get frustrated in our marriages. But EVERY marriage has this.

Now, I am not talking about the women or even men that are abused. I have heard a lot on her about women being physically abused. Well there are also more things that being physically abused that warrent people leaving. Mental abuse is terrible. Sure there is no mark or bruises, but the damage it does on a soul is much worse. People having affairs. Who thinks it is okay to stay in this case, so that you take a chance on contracting a disease. Again, these are just a few things that I list that seem pretty obvious. However, I have seen people that have stayed with their spouse even through these things, worked it out and have very good marriages now with a wonderful testimony to help others.

I think the thing with any abuse is…NONE of us here are qualified to know enough about the situation to be telling anybody to do anything. First of all, if it is physical abuse and the woman/man is being abused…there needs to be a plan to get out…not just ohhh someone on a website said leave and that is what I done. This can be dangerous for them. They need to contact appropriate people to help with this. I agree with whatevergirl. The thread should be stopped and a hotline number given in these situations. I mean gosh, we cannot even come on here and ask about medical advice…this qualifies in that category to me and we shouldn’t be giving such advice. I am a moderator for a grief chat for siblings that have lost siblings. I can tell you now, we are told to give a hotline number for anything such as this and to get them out of the room immediately. I would not want it on my hands to have told someone to leave or even to give advice to stay when I am not qualifed to give this advice or even advice on how to help them.

CAF is a great forum. But for things on advice on marriage, I think there needs improvement. I mean I don’t know the times I myself have read that people FREELY tell others…oh you married a protestant…well you know just divorce, you are probably missing out on what God really wanted for you anyway. BLOWS MY MIND. Yes I have read this type of thing more than once on here. PEOPLE this is not Christian advice. I REPEAT NOT Christian advice. We should not be telling people to divorce period! It is not our place. I would not even tell a personal friend this. I would tell nobody this.

People need to remember that the person on the other end typing is someone that doesn’t have a interest or care in us. So it is easy for them to just say yep get a divorce…oh your husband is a sorry loser…oh your wife won’t agree to do what…you just need to dump her. That person doesn’t care about you. I mean I know I have good friends that I can go to for good advice. No it is not one sided advice either. Most of the time they do take my husbands side and make me see differently. If it is something more serious, I talk to my mom. Oh my goodness, I don’t know what I would do if I lost her. I know I can go to her and she wants the best for me and would not tell me anything that would hurt me or even my husband for that matter. She has also set me straight more than once in my life. If you people don’t have these type of friends that is really sad. You need to get some friends that is not there to kiss you all the time and tell you life is roses. Get some true friends that will tell you that the grass is not greener on the other side but that the other side is just sitting on a septic tank!

Also to Mamselle…you are wise beyond your years. I think your mom has the right example of how spouses should treat one another. I think you have had good example. I think I will try to follow by your moms example a little more in my marriage also. Thanks for sharing that.

God Bless You All. I hope something in the future is done about the more severe cases of people asking for such advice. As far as the ones just looking to grip about their husbands not lifting the toilet lid or throwing socks on the floor…WELCOME to the real world! Get over it and stop looking for any excuse in the world to leave! Just be glad that is all you have to complain about and then thank God for that pee on the toilet and the sock in the floor.

 

[rayne89]

Really someone who would divorce their husband or wife because they were advised to on the internet has got their own issues.

I do think (and this happens a lot with women especially) when a woman comes to vent here about something her hubby did that peeved her off there is often a barrage of “Oh I would be so mad too!” “I would never put up with that!” “How childish (or immature, or selfish etc.)!” This just feeds an already angry person.

As Catholics we should be trying to help a person heal their relationship if possible not add fuel to the fire. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it too but I am trying to stay away from commenting like that. Its not helpful.

 

[KCT]

Really someone who would divorce their husband or wife because they were advised to on the internet has got their own issues.

I do think (and this happens a lot with women especially) when a woman comes to vent here about something her hubby did that peeved her off there is often a barrage of “Oh I would be so mad too!” “I would never put up with that!” “How childish (or immature, or selfish etc.)!” This just feeds an already angry person.

As Catholics we should be trying to help a person heal their relationship if possible not add fuel to the fire. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it too but I am trying to stay away from commenting like that. Its not helpful.

I agree, but this can apply to other issues as well. Moms asking for childrearing advice and being told, “You’re doing a wonderful job.” We don’t know the person; maybe she’s not doing a wonderful job . Maybe those comments contribute to someone enabling a manipulative or spoiled kid. Who knows.

Granted, that’s not on the same scale as the sacrament of marriage, but I think it’s inherent to the web. Info and opinions are at our fingertips in a way they never were before. People have to make decisions about how to use the technology we now have.

 

[Jan_Bolbot]

I find this line of criticism uncharitable.

You can go to a professional counselor, pay lots of money, and get bad advice. When you get advice from any source you need to process it based on common sense, conscience, the words of the Gospel and the teachings of the Church. Someone who isn’t able to process advice through such filters is not likely to do well with any advice, good or bad.

Comments from rolltidefan and others assume a motive in posting such problems that is probably not there. I don’t think it is right to impute motives to anyone on a forum. Read the comments as is, respond as necessary. If you don’t like such threads, don’t read them. No I wouldn’t allow a stranger to take care of my kids, but that’s a false analogy.

I can write things on this forum that I cannot tell my next door neighbor. People have jobs, kids in school, live in communities and parishes filled with gossipy people. To talk to someone from our parish, for example, outside of our pastor, about the awful things my wife has said and done to me, would be to risk exposing her to public humiliation, possible loss of her job, etc. Even if there is a 1% percent chance the person I talked to will let some detail slip inadvertently to a third party, that’s too much. The only person I can talk to freely & confidentially and get advice is my pastor and he has a lot of duties as this is a mission parish and he is the only priest.

Maybe we’re all dysfunctional idiots compared to you, but those who make judgements about the people who post questions about marriage or other problems should remember “judge not lest ye be judged.” And no one is forcing you read anything.

JB

 

[stringbeanduck]

Is it just me, or are a lot of married people asking for marriage advice (giving a one sided story) and then the responses that validate them get them all riled up and ready for conflict with their spouse?

This is so dangerous. If I were to tell you my side of the story about some of my marriage issues, you guys would be telling me to go to marriage encounter, separate, give him his own medicine, beat him at his game, etc.

This is such a dangerous way of asking for marriage advice! There’s always 2 sides to a story and the truth is somewhere inbetween. Why do CAF people give such distorted marriage advice on a one-sided story? It’s scary to see how many marriages could fail because of bad CAF advice.

Is it just me that thinks this way?

I can’t say for sure whether folks should give other’s advice on their marriage. All I can say is the person asking for advice or receiving advice needs to decide whether that advice may or may not be of help in their problems. If I would not have helped my mom through the troubles in her marriage (which is what I was advised to do), albeit me being young; I can almost guarantee you she would not be alive today.

 

[NDXUFan]

Divorce is not a sin or a grave sin. The sin is to divorce and remarry. As stated by JP II, “Most marriages fail because there is something wrong from the beginning.”

1983 Code of Canon Law:

“In addition to the capacity for a deliberate act of the will, spouses must psychologically capable of assuming and carrying out the essential obligations of marriage. One cannot validly exchange consent to marriage if it is beyond one’s capacity. A person may be capable of understanding the nature of marriage and of making a deliberate act of the will while at the same time being radically incapable of assuming its obligations.” Pg 777

 

[NDXUFan]

I find this line of criticism uncharitable.

You can go to a professional counselor, pay lots of money, and get bad advice. When you get advice from any source you need to process it based on common sense, conscience, the words of the Gospel and the teachings of the Church. Someone who isn’t able to process advice through such filters is not likely to do well with any advice, good or bad.

Comments from rolltidefan and others assume a motive in posting such problems that is probably not there. I don’t think it is right to impute motives to anyone on a forum. Read the comments as is, respond as necessary. If you don’t like such threads, don’t read them. No I wouldn’t allow a stranger to take care of my kids, but that’s a false analogy.

I can write things on this forum that I cannot tell my next door neighbor. People have jobs, kids in school, live in communities and parishes filled with gossipy people. To talk to someone from our parish, for example, outside of our pastor, about the awful things my wife has said and done to me, would be to risk exposing her to public humiliation, possible loss of her job, etc. Even if there is a 1% percent chance the person I talked to will let some detail slip inadvertently to a third party, that’s too much. The only person I can talk to freely & confidentially and get advice is my pastor and he has a lot of duties as this is a mission parish and he is the only priest.

Maybe we’re all dysfunctional idiots compared to you, but those who make judgements about the people who post questions about marriage or other problems should remember “judge not lest ye be judged.” And no one is forcing you read anything.

JB

I agree, you can get tons of great advice from the church. However, with any advice you receive from people, use your common sense.

 

[Jan_Bolbot]

Divorce is not a sin or a grave sin. The sin is to divorce and remarry. As stated by JP II, “Most marriages fail because there is something wrong from the beginning.”

1983 Code of Canon Law:
“In addition to the capacity for a deliberate act of the will, spouses must psychologically capable of assuming and carrying out the essential obligations of marriage. One cannot validly exchange consent to marriage if it is beyond one’s capacity. A person may be capable of understanding the nature of marriage and of making a deliberate act of the will while at the same time being radically incapable of assuming its obligations.” Pg 777

Dear NDXUFan, Check your Catechism, please!!

2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another’s husband to herself.177

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P87.HTM

It is also somewhat objectionable to quote Holy Father John Paul II as if he were in favor of divorce. It was the Holy Father himself who rightly cracked down the American use of annulment a substitute for divorce in the early 1980s. Read the Theology of the Body if you want his views on marriage.

The quote and the snippet from the Code of Canon Law that you quote refers to canonically invalid marriages. Most marriages are NOT so. I don’t know what the exact percentage of marriages that are annuled. (I found some stats but I don’t know how reliable they are, but even so the numbers of those who even seek annulment is very small.) Moreover, the Church requires couples to go through a pre-Cana program precisely so that they understand the obligations of marriage. Spouses who complete this program successfully will have difficulty later claiming they did not understand the nature of Christian marriage.

The Catholic Church does not support, recognize, or favor divorce. It is considered a mortal sin to initiate a divorce–“a grave offense against natural law” “injury to the covenant of salvation” “immoral” “grave harm”–etc. A spouse who is abandoned as a result of divorce is not considered at fault.

JB