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Katie1723
Guest
I understand that. What I don’t understand is when someone is "mad " that they weren’t the “first”.
Kathy
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Kathy
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icooker
Guest
“Bad” doesn’t necessarily mean “mad”; in my case, it was much closer to “sad”.
And it had not to do with being the “first”, but being the “only”. Virginity isn’t a trophy run. It’s about giving yourself to only the one person whom you plan to share everything with.
If you don’t, you’re emptying marriage of something that should be a part of it.
Not that I was completely on the right, of course not, but, if you value virginity at all you should be able to see how it could bother someone you want to have a lifetime relationship with.
Actually, it has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum how pressure and grief on your future relationship with your SO should be a good enough reason for people to not have sex with someone else.
And it had not to do with being the “first”, but being the “only”. Virginity isn’t a trophy run. It’s about giving yourself to only the one person whom you plan to share everything with.
If you don’t, you’re emptying marriage of something that should be a part of it.
Not that I was completely on the right, of course not, but, if you value virginity at all you should be able to see how it could bother someone you want to have a lifetime relationship with.
Actually, it has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum how pressure and grief on your future relationship with your SO should be a good enough reason for people to not have sex with someone else.
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Katie1723
Guest
In a perfect world, this would be true. But, alas, we are human. Perhaps, it should have been discussed prior to your engaging in “the act”.
Kathy
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icooker
Guest
True, we are human: that’s something that sometimes keeps us from seeing the big picture from the start.
I don’t think I ever experienced regret due to that fact: of course your saving yourself for your SO should have nothing to do with the SO saving his/herself back. I rationally understand that.
However, it’s very common for people to only have any bad feelings (whatever they may be: anger, pain, sadness, etc.) longer after knowing about the fact.
As you said, we are only human.
I don’t think I ever experienced regret due to that fact: of course your saving yourself for your SO should have nothing to do with the SO saving his/herself back. I rationally understand that.
However, it’s very common for people to only have any bad feelings (whatever they may be: anger, pain, sadness, etc.) longer after knowing about the fact.
As you said, we are only human.
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gmarie21
Guest
icooker, your feelings are yours. However, throughout your posts you have expressed many conflicting feelings about this woman. Simply based on the conflict within yourself that you have expressed it would be EXTREMELY foolish for you to marry her before you go off to another country just because you fear you’ll grow apart otherwise. YOu gave a part of yourself to her that should have been reserved for marriage. YOu must ask yourself if it is her that you want to marry for the simple fact that it is her or if it is the past sex that makes you want to marry her.
I unfortunately did not save myself and have a rather colorful past. My daughter’s father is in the process of an annulment and if he does not recieve a decree of nullity or the petrine privledge (he was married to a non-baptized woman) than I will never marry and live as his sister in Christ. He is the only one, and with that I have NO doubt. I will sacrafice my desire to marry if the Church states that he cannot marry for the simple fact that he is the one I love, not because of our past sins (which our daughter is a product of) but because he is my best friend, the one I turn to when life is up and when life is down. Before anything romantic went on between us (even before romantic feelings), I was committed to being his friend for life because he was that special to me. When the romantic feelings and our sin took place, that commitment to friendship with him didn’t change. And now that we don’t live in a state of sin anylonger, that commitment keeps increasing even greater despite the difficulty of not living together even though we share a child.
What I’m trying to tell you is that while the other may be perfect, your love is yours and if it is true, doubts should not exist. should the other be expected to be perfect? No. I can give you a trail of annoying habits my dd’s dad has (as I’m sure that he can of me), but they dont’ raise an ounce of doubt in me. Friendship is key and if you can’t even talk about your doubts to the girl you feel you should marry, you’re already going into a marriage with dishonesty.
I unfortunately did not save myself and have a rather colorful past. My daughter’s father is in the process of an annulment and if he does not recieve a decree of nullity or the petrine privledge (he was married to a non-baptized woman) than I will never marry and live as his sister in Christ. He is the only one, and with that I have NO doubt. I will sacrafice my desire to marry if the Church states that he cannot marry for the simple fact that he is the one I love, not because of our past sins (which our daughter is a product of) but because he is my best friend, the one I turn to when life is up and when life is down. Before anything romantic went on between us (even before romantic feelings), I was committed to being his friend for life because he was that special to me. When the romantic feelings and our sin took place, that commitment to friendship with him didn’t change. And now that we don’t live in a state of sin anylonger, that commitment keeps increasing even greater despite the difficulty of not living together even though we share a child.
What I’m trying to tell you is that while the other may be perfect, your love is yours and if it is true, doubts should not exist. should the other be expected to be perfect? No. I can give you a trail of annoying habits my dd’s dad has (as I’m sure that he can of me), but they dont’ raise an ounce of doubt in me. Friendship is key and if you can’t even talk about your doubts to the girl you feel you should marry, you’re already going into a marriage with dishonesty.
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icooker
Guest
gmarie: thanks for your insight.
I can assure you I’m not thinking of marrying her due to that sin. I had pretty much made up my mind that I wanted to marry her before that happened.
The doubts are not of whether or not she’s right for me, but rather: “will I have these moments of sadness forever?”.
What happened in the past hurts me a lot, for obvious reasons (even if I didn’t care about the virginity part, it was an act of violence towards the person I love).
I have expressed these feelings to her, and she has seen me when I’m a bit down about it.
I just feel bad for feeling bad about it (now how’s that for some redundant feelings?) and if it wouldn’t be better if she was with someone that didn’t care about it at all.
It’s hard to put it in words. I don’t want anybody else. I just want to be able to deal with this better than I am.
I actually tried to get away for a bit, supposedly going on a break, but it didn’t work. We just couldn’t be apart.
I really don’t want to imagine a life without her. On the other hand, I don’t want the bad moments to affect it.
I can assure you I’m not thinking of marrying her due to that sin. I had pretty much made up my mind that I wanted to marry her before that happened.
The doubts are not of whether or not she’s right for me, but rather: “will I have these moments of sadness forever?”.
What happened in the past hurts me a lot, for obvious reasons (even if I didn’t care about the virginity part, it was an act of violence towards the person I love).
I have expressed these feelings to her, and she has seen me when I’m a bit down about it.
I just feel bad for feeling bad about it (now how’s that for some redundant feelings?) and if it wouldn’t be better if she was with someone that didn’t care about it at all.
It’s hard to put it in words. I don’t want anybody else. I just want to be able to deal with this better than I am.
I actually tried to get away for a bit, supposedly going on a break, but it didn’t work. We just couldn’t be apart.
I really don’t want to imagine a life without her. On the other hand, I don’t want the bad moments to affect it.
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YinYangMom
Guest
You will have these moments so long as you don’t address them in therapy, in my opinion. And, yes, it’s just my opinion and I’m no doctor.
But ‘these moments’ are rooted in something separate from her past. This is important for you to recognize. Her past has triggered some insecurity in you, but it was there before this happened. Your job is to explore that issue so that you can place her past in proper perspective.
Seek the therapy you need, that’ll make you whole, and then you’ll be better able to offer yourself to her or anyone else in marriage.
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Eliza10
Guest
I don’t think you should marry her, because you don’t love her near enough, and so you will only wound her. If you loved her, your love for her would show in your letter. I read your letter, and I ask, “Where is the love?”.
She must be already deeply wounded, being with you while you question her adequacy, and analyze her past mistake, to see if her excuses are good enough, and while you introvertedly obssess over what she is not. It must be a deeply hurtful expereince for her. The true godly love of a man could heal her from her past and from her present with you. You don’t possess that kind of love for her, and you should let her go, for her sake. Acting in her best interest can make your heart grow.
Perhaps there is hope that when you go oversees and are alone, absence will make the heart grow fonder, and you will truly fall in love with that person, that beloved creature of God, that she is.
She must be already deeply wounded, being with you while you question her adequacy, and analyze her past mistake, to see if her excuses are good enough, and while you introvertedly obssess over what she is not. It must be a deeply hurtful expereince for her. The true godly love of a man could heal her from her past and from her present with you. You don’t possess that kind of love for her, and you should let her go, for her sake. Acting in her best interest can make your heart grow.
Perhaps there is hope that when you go oversees and are alone, absence will make the heart grow fonder, and you will truly fall in love with that person, that beloved creature of God, that she is.
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Eliza10
Guest
One thing that may help you a lot is to watch Jason and Crystaline Evderts’s “Romance Without Regret.”
here is a link: google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Jason+Evert&btnG=Search
and another: pureloveclub.com/
On the “Romance Without Regret” video you will gain a fresh new understanding of the different between chastity and virginity. He explains: you can be a virgin but not chaste, and chaste but not a virgin. You are focusing on virginity alone and perhaps thats the whole reason you are stuck.
Perhaps the devil wants you apart and is dangling that in front of you like its an issue of great import. Because you wil never get past that issue if you focus on that because it truly is in the past. The Everts explain that the real key issue is chasity, not virginity.
I am sure you will gain a new outlook by watching that classic video and can they probably sell it here at CA and also you can check out half.com.
Because if the problem is not that your love is not worthy, which is what I expressed in my previous post, but instead a wrong focus, and lack of knowledge on the truth of the matter, then maybe there is hope for you.
here is a link: google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Jason+Evert&btnG=Search
and another: pureloveclub.com/
On the “Romance Without Regret” video you will gain a fresh new understanding of the different between chastity and virginity. He explains: you can be a virgin but not chaste, and chaste but not a virgin. You are focusing on virginity alone and perhaps thats the whole reason you are stuck.
Perhaps the devil wants you apart and is dangling that in front of you like its an issue of great import. Because you wil never get past that issue if you focus on that because it truly is in the past. The Everts explain that the real key issue is chasity, not virginity.
I am sure you will gain a new outlook by watching that classic video and can they probably sell it here at CA and also you can check out half.com.
Because if the problem is not that your love is not worthy, which is what I expressed in my previous post, but instead a wrong focus, and lack of knowledge on the truth of the matter, then maybe there is hope for you.
You won’t be good enough if you try the wrong way. Your parents didn’t trry the right way and they failed. They did not provide a hopeful model. I do not agree that it was your fathers lack of virginity that made the marraige fail but it was his lack within the marriage that contributed to the failure. But lacking a good model, you can still learn! I really reccommend Gregory Popcak’s book, For Better Forever.
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francisca
Guest
icooker,
I do not know how bad it is when her past bothers. Is it extremely bad?
I read how you have this romantic feeling about her. In my opinion (and my own life experience), man’s romantic feelings toward his wife is one of the reasons a marriage is strong.
You said about how you feel that you always want to be with her. Such feeling is very precious and honest. To let it go will only bring about regrets in the future, when things go wrong and you find yourself letting “the best thing that’ve ever happened to you” pass you by.
I read your post, I just know that you just can’t let her go. Such feeling will stay with you for a long long time, and if you ever let it go, you may never find such feeling with anyone else.
Marriage is not easy, therefore you need strong feelings toward your spouse. I am refering “strong feelings” more to “romance” than “sexual”. And I read how you try to wait until the wedding day. Such is how you regard her so highly, and such is the romance needed from a man in a relationship.
Thus I say to you, your concern about your feeling about her past is a minor thing. You will overcome it overtime, because you will see how she will be there for you the whole time, and that you are “her only one”.
Pray and believe in God who loves you, God who want you to be happy. Ask Him your heart’s desire, and ask Him to heal you from your insecurity/ jealousy toward your girlfriend’s past. Don’t let fear and worry overcome you that you may lose the goodness God has given you. Your parent’s marriage does not have anything to do with yours. Your marriage will be good because you and she believe in it.
When I was young, I used to think marriage is something difficult because my parent’s marriage was. I thought I had to be “rational” and the world around me teaches me to be “rational”. But such is wrong. I was blessed to find romance, and I can tell you now that love is NEVER purely rational. Love takes strengths from the good times and the good feelings you share with your love one.
Love is A LOT MORE than rationality. Rationality cannot survive this life. It takes a lot more than rationality to go through challenges of life. Love takes risks, and when you are in it, both of you and God are the only factors to make it success or fail. Marriage mistakes are not on the decision time (when a couple decided to get married), but more on the “how they live it”.
I do not know how bad it is when her past bothers. Is it extremely bad?
I read how you have this romantic feeling about her. In my opinion (and my own life experience), man’s romantic feelings toward his wife is one of the reasons a marriage is strong.
You said about how you feel that you always want to be with her. Such feeling is very precious and honest. To let it go will only bring about regrets in the future, when things go wrong and you find yourself letting “the best thing that’ve ever happened to you” pass you by.
I read your post, I just know that you just can’t let her go. Such feeling will stay with you for a long long time, and if you ever let it go, you may never find such feeling with anyone else.
Marriage is not easy, therefore you need strong feelings toward your spouse. I am refering “strong feelings” more to “romance” than “sexual”. And I read how you try to wait until the wedding day. Such is how you regard her so highly, and such is the romance needed from a man in a relationship.
Thus I say to you, your concern about your feeling about her past is a minor thing. You will overcome it overtime, because you will see how she will be there for you the whole time, and that you are “her only one”.
Pray and believe in God who loves you, God who want you to be happy. Ask Him your heart’s desire, and ask Him to heal you from your insecurity/ jealousy toward your girlfriend’s past. Don’t let fear and worry overcome you that you may lose the goodness God has given you. Your parent’s marriage does not have anything to do with yours. Your marriage will be good because you and she believe in it.
When I was young, I used to think marriage is something difficult because my parent’s marriage was. I thought I had to be “rational” and the world around me teaches me to be “rational”. But such is wrong. I was blessed to find romance, and I can tell you now that love is NEVER purely rational. Love takes strengths from the good times and the good feelings you share with your love one.
Love is A LOT MORE than rationality. Rationality cannot survive this life. It takes a lot more than rationality to go through challenges of life. Love takes risks, and when you are in it, both of you and God are the only factors to make it success or fail. Marriage mistakes are not on the decision time (when a couple decided to get married), but more on the “how they live it”.
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icooker
Guest
YinYangMom: I’m sure counseling/therapy could help. I’m looking into it.
francisca: thank you for one of the most beautiful posts I’ve ever read.
It’s really bad when her past bothers me, but what I feel for her is also very strong. It’s as if I’m always at extremes.
You summed everything very well: it’s my rationality that gets in the way, as if love and marriage were as simple as piecing necessary bits together following some sort of manual. I’m finding out that it isn’t, but that it can be beautiful and pure nonetheless.
francisca: thank you for one of the most beautiful posts I’ve ever read.
It’s really bad when her past bothers me, but what I feel for her is also very strong. It’s as if I’m always at extremes.
You summed everything very well: it’s my rationality that gets in the way, as if love and marriage were as simple as piecing necessary bits together following some sort of manual. I’m finding out that it isn’t, but that it can be beautiful and pure nonetheless.
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francisca
Guest
I see.
I think It’s normal that you are angry : because you love her, and you wish that such bad thing did not happen to her.
However, there are many bad things in this world that can cause us angry all the time if we give them chance all the time. Bad things causes bad things. Thus if we give ourselves up to them (to bad things), we become part of them : we become bad because of bad things in the past.
Some psychologist may tell you that we learn things from our parents. Thus bad marriage of the parents causes bad marriage of the son/ daughter. But I know a better knowledge than that : we are not passive beings. What happens to us may be bad, but we can still be good according to God’s will. Such is the solution that God offering to us : that we are good because we trust Him.
This is my real life testimony for you : My parents marriage is bad, but my marriage is good. I learn from my parents, yes, but I refuse to handle my marriage the way they did (and still do). With God we can turn bad into good. And I am sure that it is not a coincidence that you are given task according to what you have learnt all of your life as a son. Now it’s your turn to lead and decide which way to go.
Our failures will turn into glory and our sorrows into dancing because of God. Thus our own understanding of perfection is humiliated when we see how God makes perfect our life both through success and failures.
For example our rationality. We think that we can choose good over bad based on our logic and sane minds. But the fact is, if only we can use rationality in marriage, things will be easier. But men & women, young & old, rich & poor, educated & non-educated-- all of us & most of the time-- we are not rational beings when it’s about marriage.
Even worse, the world has successfully preach about rationality to us so that nowadays people think that you need to “explore” before you decide to marry one of those people in our list. Later, after a series of hearbreaks, the person then decide to marry somebody whom he/she don’t love anyway, because rationality decides and because his/ her heart has turned SO COLD for too many heartbroking experiences.
Men and women who listens to Gods voice will not experience such things. When something good happen to us we “grab” the opportunity because we are honest to God and to ourselves. We take care of the good things God has entrusted to us because we are grateful. We don’t regret because we believe that all things happens according to His plan. Thus both our success and failures are good in God’s mighty hand : we rejoice when we success, but when we fail we ask Him to turn this failure into success with His power and wisdom and all the things He can and will provide according to His plan. For that, we give all the glory to God all the way, and so we will be glorified together with Him at the end of the journey.
This is the “attitude” that the word of God teaches us.
Wish you well and may God bless you and The Holy Spirit guide you in Jesus mighty Name. Amen.
J
JezuUfamTobie
Guest
I just wanted to say that I found this lovely testimony of help. I am a single woman and I’m trying to listen to God as I accept or decline the courtship of certain men. I am finding when I approach these decisions in a purely emotional manner, I always choose wrongly. But when I approach them in a purely logical fashion, I’m left feeling uneasy and uninspired. The path to good courtship and marriage should be a mixture of romance and rationality. Thanks for helping me define what has been stirring in my mind lately, Francisca. It’s also helpful to see the example of someone whose parents had a difficult marriage, but did not go on to have a bad marriage herself. God bless.
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francisca
Guest
I just wanted to say that I found this lovely testimony of help.
Hi Jezul,
I’m glad that you find my testimony useful.
When I wrote to icooker in the previous posts, I based my suggestions to him on what I read from his posts: how icooker is so deeply in love yet angry about the girl’s past. I can see that icooker is serious about her.
There are cases, however, that men are not very serious. Womens’ position-- despite we are now quite equal in many areas-- womens’ position regarding man-woman relationship, is not exactly the same as mens’.
It is very natural for woman to love, we are created to love our family. I find it not so with men. God has to command man to love his wife. Some men do not love, especially if they have taken the wrong path, they get selfish and cold, not capable of love anymore, they literally look for merely “mate” but not love. And women are their victims.
On the other hand, when men really fall in love, they are passionate lovers. If a man truly loves a woman, he will be fully committed to her (literally on his knees), so then God must command woman to submit to him, otherwise, man will not be man anymore
Women are romantic, often get deceived by their own romanticism. I am saying that woman’s romantic feelings are not an indicator of truthfulness of the relationship. Because we tend to romanticize everything, we deceives ourselves with our own romanticism. But man’s romanticism is what we want. Unless the man is romantic about us, our own romanticism means nothing. So to be honest with ourselves, we must have “standard” of how we want men to treat us. Such is the indicator of honesty in the relationship.
In the Bible it is writen that it’s not us who love God but God who loves us first. Our position to God is feminine. Unless God loves us, our love for God means nothing (empty romance of our own imagination). So our relationship with men are similar to such pattern. Unless a man is committed to me (like God who is faithful), my love for him is my own imagination. This man is to be truthful to me first, otherwise the relationship is not.
It’s not easy to be a young woman nowadays, but it’s worthed to wait for Mr right who will love you a life time, than courting too many empty relationships those will bring sorrows and disappointments. Mr right has to be the one with real romance, meaning he is fully “head to toe” for you. Only then that you submit to him, that is after qualifying whether he is the real one (the truthful one), not the deceiving kind (the lie).
Yes, marriage is never mere rational. Therefore “good feelings” always play imporant part.
Yes. My hubby’s love for me changes me. But most of all Jesus love for me transform me. Although I see bad examples all of my life, I have a Helper who is God my creator and the creator of everything. He saves me therefore I can be good because of My God who loves me first.
God bless.
H
hasikelee
Guest
She “lied” with her body to a man who hurt her.
Then you and she did some “lying” together.
Now you are nervous and hot under the collar. What if she is all along lying?
That is really all I am picking up from this whole thread.
You’re worried about things like:
People who “lie” are paranoid that others are lying to them.
She probably needs some serious time alone and lots of counseling. Judging just from the information you disclosed regarding her past relationship, she probably needs lots of help for getting into that situation. It doesn’t sound like a stranger raped her, but rather like she made a series of wrong choices. Maybe deep down you wonder if you’re the next wrong choice.
Then you and she did some “lying” together.
Now you are nervous and hot under the collar. What if she is all along lying?
That is really all I am picking up from this whole thread.
You’re worried about things like:
- A tattoo
- How long she dated the other guy
- If she really wants to be with you or not.
People who “lie” are paranoid that others are lying to them.
She probably needs some serious time alone and lots of counseling. Judging just from the information you disclosed regarding her past relationship, she probably needs lots of help for getting into that situation. It doesn’t sound like a stranger raped her, but rather like she made a series of wrong choices. Maybe deep down you wonder if you’re the next wrong choice.
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icooker
Guest
francisca: your posts are really beautiful and helpful at the same time. You seem to have a true grasp on things regarding love and relationships.
I agree with you, I have been guilty of that whole rationality towards relationships, especially the point about “how you could find someone better” or something.
hasikelee: I never said a stranger raped her. She did make a bad choice in trusting the guy, and she made another one in staying with him and “lying” to him, even if only a few times until she realized she didn’t have to do it despite what had happened.
And I disagree with you on the fact of the tattoo, for example, bothering me indicating that we do not have a strong foundation together.
Even the person you love can do things that make you have doubts, or bad feelings.
It’s possible for someone to drive the “person of their life” away. Not that this is happening on our case, I’m just saying that it’s possible just as these shades of gray (bad feelings, anger, etc.) are possible.
I agree with you, I have been guilty of that whole rationality towards relationships, especially the point about “how you could find someone better” or something.
hasikelee: I never said a stranger raped her. She did make a bad choice in trusting the guy, and she made another one in staying with him and “lying” to him, even if only a few times until she realized she didn’t have to do it despite what had happened.
And I disagree with you on the fact of the tattoo, for example, bothering me indicating that we do not have a strong foundation together.
Even the person you love can do things that make you have doubts, or bad feelings.
It’s possible for someone to drive the “person of their life” away. Not that this is happening on our case, I’m just saying that it’s possible just as these shades of gray (bad feelings, anger, etc.) are possible.
H
hasikelee
Guest
*To add to this: I have some trouble believing in the whole “only letting my SO-to-be have anything with me” because she has a tattoo with the guy’s initials (which are coincidentally the same as my own, but I digress).
She says it didn’t mean anything, and she did it because the guy had done one with hers and kept bugging her about it, and kind of dared her to do it, and she knew she could cover it up or get it removed later on. Just as a sidenote, she did it 1 month before breaking up with him and 2 before starting dating me.
She didn’t manage to remove it before we started dating because it was just too short a timeframe between the facts.
Would a girl that supposedly was saving herself for her SO-to-be do a tattoo like this? Does it really not mean anything?
Is it possible for someone to think that a tattoo means nothing if covered or removed?*
icooker, not trying to get on your case here, but rather put things bluntly. The way you have described your gf and the behaviors listed point towards her not being fully developed or healed. If you are saying she is driving you away, that is just another symptom.
Basically, I’m trying to say that yes, love can triumph, but it takes at least one very strong, 100% secure person willing and educated to help the other person. What usually happens is what you are presenting; both parties kind of drag each other down.
If you do love her, maybe a separation of sorts, or a very very slow friendship is what is needed right now. She is most likely not at a point to where she can have a fulfilling, chaste and truly loving relationship, and your posts don’t speak to that ability either.
I
icooker
Guest
hasikelee: sorry if I wasn’t clear in my post. I just said it was possible for your SO-to-be to drive you away despite being someone you really love, so it was also possible that something caused doubts and bad feelings.
I meant that as a way of saying that things aren’t “done” just because you found your SO-to-be.
I’d actually say she’s better prepared for a serious relationship than I am. I have to pray a lot and be strong to be as good as she is.
I meant that as a way of saying that things aren’t “done” just because you found your SO-to-be.
I’d actually say she’s better prepared for a serious relationship than I am. I have to pray a lot and be strong to be as good as she is.
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