Really it was just grape juice NOT!

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AJS

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Does anyone have any written analysis/rebuttal of the claim by some that Jesus actually used grape juice, not wine, at the last supper?
 
The Bible specifically said wine.

Writings from other Apostles/disciples, early Christians and Church Fathers said wine. The Last Supper was part of Passover which uses wine. 👍

-JohnDeP
 
Go to the supermarket and see how many bottles of grape juice do not say refridgerate after opening. None. Grape juice would have gone bad very quickly. Another part is that depending on how it is procured, fermentation is a natural by-product of producing grape juice. All of the Biblical texts, early Fathers, and Bible scholars say it was fermented wine.
 
A practical point:

Growing and preparing food took a large part of each day for the ancients. (All we have to do is spend a few minutes at the market.) It doesn’t seem likely that they would whip up a batch of something that would have to be consumed immediately or be thrown away. People who live hand to mouth can’t afford to do that.

Grape juice is perishable and would not be available outside the season for grapes. The Last Supper would have been in April. If that month is outside the harvest season for grapes, then there could not have been any grape juice available for any purpose. But wine could have been on the shelves for years.
 
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AJS:
Does anyone have any written analysis/rebuttal of the claim by some that Jesus actually used grape juice, not wine, at the last supper?
The steward in the story comments that “usually the best is served first but you have saved the best for last.”

That comment only makes sense in the context of alcoholic beverages. As a person drinks alcohol, he or she looses the ability to taste alcohol. So hosts would serve the good wine first because it tasted better. As the guests got loaded, the host would bring out lower-quality wine because they didn’t have the ability to taste the alcohol anymore. The steward is, thus, surprised because Jesus apparently made some quality wine. Try to explain this custom with grape juice and it just doesn’t work.

Also since they didn’t have refrigeration, any grape juice left out would start to ferment. Unless it was “fresh squeezed” any “juice” would have been, at least, partially fermented.

-C
 
Because:
  1. Grape harvest was in the autumn.
  2. Passover was in the spring.
  3. No electricity = no refrigeration.
and last, but not least,
  1. Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch would not be born for another 1800 years or so.
Our Southern Baptist Sunday School lesson this coming Sunday is on the Lord’s Supper, and the printed materials come out and say that Jesus used grape juice. The level of ignorance sometimes boggles the mind… :banghead:

It’s going to be difficult to keep my mouth shut.

DaveBj
 
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AJS:
Does anyone have any written analysis/rebuttal of the claim by some that Jesus actually used grape juice, not wine, at the last supper?
If your don’t mind a Reformed Protestant source I think this is the best thing ever written about it. Don’t let the title confuse you, it is about really bad evangelical arguments and the biblical evidence against them. It is not a jab at Catholics.

thirdmill.org/files/english/html/th/TH.h.Mathison.Prot.Trans.1.html

He destroys the idea that “fruit of the vine” can be anything other than wine.

Mel
 
Karl Keating:
A practical point:

Growing and preparing food took a large part of each day for the ancients. (All we have to do is spend a few minutes at the market.) It doesn’t seem likely that they would whip up a batch of something that would have to be consumed immediately or be thrown away. People who live hand to mouth can’t afford to do that.

Grape juice is perishable and would not be available outside the season for grapes. The Last Supper would have been in April. If that month is outside the harvest season for grapes, then there could not have been any grape juice available for any purpose. But wine could have been on the shelves for years.
Let me just say how cool it is that the author of my first big apologetic read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” and the guy I hear on the radio pops in to share his wisdom with us little people.

Thanks, Karl!

P.S. When will the book on “most interesting threads of the Catholic Answers Discussion Forum” going to be published?😉
 
gomer tree:
Let me just say how cool it is that the author of my first big apologetic read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” and the guy I hear on the radio pops in to share his wisdom with us little people.
You’re a very short person? How short? I’m 6’ 2".
 
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JohnDeP:
The Bible specifically said wine.

Writings from other Apostles/disciples, early Christians and Church Fathers said wine. The Last Supper was part of Passover which uses wine. 👍

-JohnDeP
One specific I was after was whether there are distinct greek words for “wine” and what we call grape juice. ???
 
It was real wine. I believe it was not strong wine. In timothy pastors were to refrain from drinking strong wine. there are many examples in scripture wich proves it was real wine. Look at the day of pentacost ,people thought they were all drunk from wine. You dont get drunk on grape juice. As for me Ill drink new wine from the Holy Spirit. Ill get drunk in the spirit. 👍
 
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SPOKENWORD:
It was real wine. I believe it was not strong wine. In timothy pastors were to refrain from drinking strong wine. there are many examples in scripture wich proves it was real wine. Look at the day of pentacost ,people thought they were all drunk from wine. You dont get drunk on grape juice. As for me Ill drink new wine from the Holy Spirit. Ill get drunk in the spirit. 👍
I believe "civilized"people would dilute wine with water, a custom that carried over into the Eucharistic liturgy… I recall one priest of my youth who always cautioned altar boys not to add so much wine to the chalice. Do you want me to get drunk? He was by the way something of a teetotler.
 
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JohnDeP:
The Bible specifically said wine.

Writings from other Apostles/disciples, early Christians and Church Fathers said wine. The Last Supper was part of Passover which uses wine. 👍

The Bible says “wine”, but that won’t get you very far with someone who thinks it was grape juice. The word for wine can also mean grapejuice. A better defense is the fact that it wasn’t until the 20th Century that Welch’s discovered how to keep grape juice from fermenting. They wanted grape juice for communion. Grape juice at communion is that recent.

The wedding feast at Cana is another proof. the words from the toast master. Usually the best wine is served first then when everyone is full the cheaper wine is served. The cheaper wine is served later because it’s hard to tell the difference when you’re buzzing.

Here’s a nice link of Scriptures that deal with drinking.
scripturecatholic.com/drinking.html

Some interesting ones
Luke 7:33-34 Calling Jesus a drunk would make no sense if he were imbibing on grape juice.

Matthew 9:17 Putting new wine into old wine skins breaks the wine skins. They break because the wine ferments causing gas to expand. Old skins break under the pressure. The advice is to put the new wine into new skins so that BOTH are preserved. It doesn’t say to throw the fermented wine out.

**Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. This is right out of the KJV the version tee-totalers like most. These are Jesus’ own words. Odd from someone who forbids drinking alcohol. Not to insult anyone’s intelligence, but old wine is not grape juice.

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of **aged wine well refined. **

Nothing about this verse speaks “grape juice”. Even if the word “wine” here meant grape juice “aged grape juice” is wine. Old grape juice half way on its way to wine is disgusting. Odd indeed to compare something heavenly to half fermented grape juice.
%between%
 
Fr.Mateo wrote in his website: cin.org/mateo/mt960309.html

“Even on the vine, the juice within the grapes is becoming wine
because of the yeast and microbial activity at work in the
grapes. This activity continues during and after the pressing of
the grapes and extraction of the juice. Consequently, pure
(i.e., non-alcoholic) grape juice was an impossibility until
1869, when Mister Welch succeeded in applying the process of
pasteurization to freshly squeezed must.”
  • The last supper took place approx 2000 years ago
  • Grape juice was invented 195 years ago
CONCLUSION: (It’s simple just do the maths)
Before 1869 grape juice was not invented therefore people from 2000 years ago would had drank ALCOHOLIC wine.
 
OK, just to keep it simple…technically, wine IS grape juice. It just happens to be fermented and the middle east is famous for several wines.

It’s ridiculous to think that Jesus drank juice (and by the way, I didn’t know that fresh grape juice was invented in the 1800’s). There are SO MANY references to wine in the Bible, and it makes sense. Wine is traditional, it is an ancient drink, and from what I have read here, was created out of necessity. I’m sure that the ancient peoples did not spend time getting wasted at their dinners, but used the drink along with water to wet their tongues while eating.

Incidentally, I believe wine had medicinal purposes and does contain various anti-oxidants…so if drunk at various dinners, likely watered down…well, it was probably pretty healthy.

I really believe they probably added water to the wine when they served it to make it go further, but likely stored it in wineskins which were fit for a nomadic lifestyle.
 
Well, there is some non-biblical historical evidence that adding water to wine was standard practice–with different proportions (and only a wholly uncouth barbarian would drink wine unwatered) recommended. A 3:1 water:wine ratio was considered appropriate for magistrates, for example. I’ll have to hunt down the rest of that, but I just got a new computer and my desk is a mess because I moved all the books into boxes to make room for the new & old systems while I transfer stuff off the old one to the new one.
 
I’ve read a guy on an EWTN Q&A forum that the ancient jews would boil down and concentrate the wine into a syrup. This way, it would keep and not ferment and they could add water to it to drink it. Has anyone ever heard this argument?
 
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AJS:
Does anyone have any written analysis/rebuttal of the claim by some that Jesus actually used grape juice, not wine, at the last supper?
Let us look at the Luke, chapter 7, verses 33-35:

*33
For John the Baptist came neither eating food nor drinking wine, and you said, ‘He is possessed by a demon.’
34
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.
35
But wisdom is vindicated by all her children." *

To make the accusation of Jesus being a ‘drunkard’ would imply that alcoholic wine was consumed at some point in His life.
 
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Flower_Charity:
I’ve read a guy on an EWTN Q&A forum that the ancient jews would boil down and concentrate the wine into a syrup. This way, it would keep and not ferment and they could add water to it to drink it. Has anyone ever heard this argument?
No, but this may be the answer to my question 🙂

I understand and have successfully been explaining why it had to have been true, alcholic wine (however watered down) and not grape juice; but I recently had a Baptist tell me that since “alcohol is harmful” and “Jesus wouldn’t harm His body, would He?” that the “wine” was actually unfermented grape juice made from a mixture of water and “grape paste” that was kept in a jar. I know this is wrong, but I was at a loss to explain how, since she kept insisting that in its “paste” form, the grapes would not be able to ferment.

Maybe syrup=paste? Why would boiling it preserve it from fermentation and keep it from spoiling in any other way?
 
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