Reason and Belief

[CopticChristian]

What do you want to know about them?

The tree is green and the sky is blue my son. Daddy why do you believe the tree is gree and the sky is blue.

The tree is green and the sky is blue my son. Daddy tell me about the trees and the sky.

I want to know about what it is and why you profess that the

Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book as you stated based on the 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.

I did not ask about Prophesies I asked about what it is you believe based on what you said. Do you think I am stupid? Do you think others are stupid? Your failure to respond is an indication that you choose not to wade into proving this. If you can prove your point as I asked think of how many Protestants that view these siites will see how much wisdom and knowledge you have and how you have shown all those that do not know and understand what you know have been enlightened.

On the other hand think about every Catholic that reads this post, the 1,034,474 viewing the non-Catholic thread and the 430 viewing this thread that will have come to understand that finally a Protestant has shown that the Bible can be declared to be true by Reason.

Ponder the thought that your posting on the sinless nature of Mary grows ever so much more believable by your lack of response because of Faith and your lack of Reason. Reason you believe prevails there and the very basis you place that reason in, the Word of God you cannot verify when asked.

This thread is the result of your attack on Mary. Consider that as you ponder how you feel about this thread and what you posted about Mary. You brought this to the fore.

I wait.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The tree is green and the sky is blue my son. Daddy why do you believe the tree is gree and the sky is blue.

The tree is green and the sky is blue my son. Daddy tell me about the trees and the sky.

I want to know about what it is and why you profess that the

Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book as you stated based on the 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.

I did not ask about Prophesies I asked about what it is you believe based on what you said.

This is not what you asked. This is

Tell me about these prophecies that are 100% accurate.

Do you think I am stupid? Do you think others are stupid?

No, but I am having some thoughts about these questions.

Your failure to respond is an indication that you choose not to wade into proving this. If you can prove your point as I asked think of how many Protestants that view these siites will see how much wisdom and knowledge you have and how you have shown all those that do not know and understand what you know have been enlightened.

Now you are asking me to “prove” some point. And I must admit to feeling a little “stupid” here. I have no idea what this “point” is that you want me to prove. Remember this original statement of mine?

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things. Why do you ask?

This is a statement of why I believe in the bible. What is there about this statement that you think I need to “prove”

On the other hand think about every Catholic that reads this post, the 1,034,474 viewing the non-Catholic thread and the 430 viewing this thread that will have come to understand that finally a Protestant has shown that the Bible can be declared to be true by Reason.

You don’t think the bible is true?

Ponder the thought that your posting on the sinless nature of Mary grows ever so much more believable by your lack of response because of Faith and your lack of Reason. Reason you believe prevails there and the very basis you place that reason in, the Word of God you cannot verify when asked.

You grow ever more obtuse. I have no Idea what you are saying here.

This thread is the result of your attack on Mary.

I didn’t attack Mary. I merely pointed out THAT THE BIBLE SAYS that she is a sinner.
Rom.8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Mary being the ONLY flesh that Jesus came in the likeness of. The only possible conclusion is that Mary is a sinner.

Consider that as you ponder how you feel about this thread and what you posted about Mary.

I consider this thread and all threads as opportunities.

You brought this to the fore.

I wait.

I brought what to the fore and what are you waiting for.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is not what you asked. This is

No, but I am having some thoughts about these questions.

Now you are asking me to “prove” some point. And I must admit to feeling a little “stupid” here. I have no idea what this “point” is that you want me to prove. Remember this original statement of mine?

This is a statement of why I believe in the bible. What is there about this statement that you think I need to “prove”

You don’t think the bible is true?

You grow ever more obtuse. I have no Idea what you are saying here.

I didn’t attack Mary. I merely pointed out THAT THE BIBLE SAYS that she is a sinner.
Rom.8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Mary being the ONLY flesh that Jesus came in the likeness of. The only possible conclusion is that Mary is a sinner.

I consider this thread and all threads as opportunities.

I brought what to the fore and what are you waiting for.

You need to add the following words to your statement…“in my opinion” and you might also want to add “based on my belief that the Bible is true based on the accuracy of Prophesy, Prophesy which I choose not to discuss”.

Thank you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You need to add the following words to your statement…“in my opinion”

The bible says what it says. Its not my opinion.

and you might also want to add “based on my belief that the Bible is true based on the accuracy of Prophesy, Prophesy which I choose not to discuss”.

Thank you.

Cop, in your last post you made this comment.

I did not ask about Prophesies I asked about what it is you believe based on what you said.

In a previous post you said this.

Tell me about these prophecies that are 100% accurate.

I have asked you what it is about these prophecies that you would like to know and you steadfastly refuse to clarify what it is you want to talk about and instead rebuke me for not talking about it. I don’t know about you but I’m getting a little tired of this little power trip that your on. If you want to talk about prophecy that’s fine, but this is your thread and if you want to talk about something you need to explain exactly what that is. If not I think I’m out.

 

[E.E.N.S]

The bible says what it says. Its not my opinion.

Are you infallible in you personal interpretation? Could you possibly be mistaken?

Consider:
Romans 3:

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

and

5]
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Thoughts?

---

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic post. You may now return to your regularly scheduled question & sidestepping…er, answering session.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Are you infallible in you personal interpretation? Could you possibly be mistaken?

Consider:

and

Thoughts?

Did you read this?

Rom.8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Mary being the ONLY flesh that Jesus came in the likeness of. The only possible conclusion is that Mary is a sinner.

If you did could you please explain to me where exactly you think that this evaluation of this text is wrong?

---

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic post. You may now return to your regularly scheduled question & sidestepping…er, answering session.

Sidestepping? Ok, maybe you could explain to me what exactly it is I’m suppose to be answering?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Sidestepping? Ok, maybe you could explain to me what exactly it is I’m suppose to be answering?

For starters, you didn’t answer any of the 3 questions I just asked you.

 

[cheese_puff]

oy vey… :stretcher:

 

[Richard_Kastner]

For starters, you didn’t answer any of the 3 questions I just asked you.

Here’s the post where you ask the questions.

E.E.N.S.
Book Club Member Join Date: June 29, 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,528
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)

Re: Reason and Belief

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
The bible says what it says. Its not my opinion.

Are you infallible in you personal interpretation? Could you possibly be mistaken?

Consider:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 3
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke 1
[5] There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
[6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Thoughts?

---

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic post. You may now return to your regularly scheduled question & sidestepping…er, answering session.

Now read this post again very carefully. By my count there are two Questions. The second I chose not to answer because I found the texts to be totally irrelavant to anything being discussed. The first one

Are you infallible in you personal interpretation? Could you possibly be mistaken?

You seem to be implying that I am wrong in my evaluation of the text, so I asked you

could you please explain to me where exactly you think that this evaluation of this text is wrong?

See E this is called dialogue. It involves give and take between people who are genuinely
interested in what the other has to say. Instead you seem to think that I should meekly submit to some sort of inane inquisition in which you are the interegator. That’s probably not going to happen.

“Thoughts?”

 

[Richard_Kastner]

oy vey… :stretcher:

Ya, me too!!!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Here’s the post where you ask the questions.

Now read this post again very carefully. By my count there are two Questions. The second I chose not to answer because I found the texts to be totally irrelavant to anything being discussed. The first one

You seem to be implying that I am wrong in my evaluation of the text, so I asked you

See E this is called dialogue. It involves give and take between people who are genuinely
interested in what the other has to say. Instead you seem to think that I should meekly submit to some sort of inane inquisition in which you are the interegator. That’s probably not going to happen.

“Thoughts?”

No there are three questions, but who cares at this point, it seems that you refuse to answer ANYONE’s questions if the answer hurts your cause.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think, Richard, your conclusions show a type of thinking akin to reason…you chose a certain perspective, namely, Mary…to show the bible said she was sinful flesh…when the context was that Christ became flesh, like us, in all things except sin…but Mary is not mentioned here.

Man is the lowest point to which God can descend…We can’t relate to a burning bush or a pillar of fire and parting of the Red Sea, or the trumpets blowing and the walls of Jericho falling down…after the event, these means God used to show His presence and power meant nothing and don’t mean anything in themselves today.

However, man is made in the image of God. But he fell. And it is where God returned to restore through His Son…the flesh of mankind…back to mankind with the higher calling with the use of Spirit and reason, and Mary was the means that connected humankind with Godkind…she was of human flesh, but created without sin.

Perfecto!

Here we need the Church to guide us in not only belief, but reason. And as you have been told countless times, the Church began at Pentecost and took many people and many years to assemble the Bible, and it was the use of reason with the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ passed down through His apostles through the Holy Spirit that we see every word and phrase of Scripture all interconnected…and fulfilled through Christ…by means of Mary.

 

[JamestheOlder]

Okay, folks. I think you have painted Richard into a corner, and he doesn’t want to come out of his corner. Please leave him be.

Besides, all the bible arguments we have do not really affect our salvation.

In attempting to answer on another CAF thread, the questioner led me to something I had not really focused on before: If the Catholic Church had elected to use or canonize only certain individual works and letters, we might not even have this protracted discussion. Then we would have no “bible” as such. Consider the quote from 1John, Chapter 2, and the ramifications of his teaching:​

Life from God’s Anointing.

24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.
26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you.
27 As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.​

You can see, when viewing the entire quotation, that if you have heard the Truth (not seen it in a book), and retain that teaching that brought you to anointing (Baptism, Confirmation), and that anointing (sanctifying grace) remains in you, you do not need anyone to teach you; i.e., you already have sanctifying grace, and that is sufficient for salvation. So, he says, remain in grace, and, just as it taught you by what you heard to bring you to this anointing, it will cause you to remain in Him (Jesus).

Belief in the Bible, even dedicated belief in its words as written in various versions and forms, does NOT bring salvation. Belief in Jesus the Christ, as G-d and man, brings Baptism, and with it, sanctifying grace…regardless of what version of the Bible you read, regardless of how many books your Bible contains, regardless of a Pope’s decree, regardless of learned rabbis’ selection of Hebrew Scriptures, only, for their Testament. And, we may add, regardless of how literate or educated you may be, regardless of whether you own one or even read it.

So, for all practical purposes towards obtaining salvation, the Bible is irrelevant. If you say “no”, you deny entry to Heaven for all those who died for and in the Faith (some in a most violent manner), including Peter and Paul, and yes, even John, whom we quote. Remember, they died before the “Bible” was constructed and canonized.​

Thanks, folks. It hasn’t been exactly fun, but it is always interesting to plumb the depths of knowledge and interest. No response to this is needed; I am unsubscribing after this posting.

Peace be with you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Okay, folks. I think you have painted Richard into a corner, and he doesn’t want to come out of his corner. Please leave him be.

Besides, all the bible arguments we have do not really affect our salvation.

In attempting to answer on another CAF thread, the questioner led me to something I had not really focused on before: If the Catholic Church had elected to use or canonize only certain individual works and letters, we might not even have this protracted discussion. Then we would have no “bible” as such. Consider the quote from 1John, Chapter 2, and the ramifications of his teaching:​

Life from God’s Anointing.

24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.
26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you.
27 As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.​

You can see, when viewing the entire quotation, that if you have heard the Truth (not seen it in a book), and retain that teaching that brought you to anointing (Baptism, Confirmation), and that anointing (sanctifying grace) remains in you, you do not need anyone to teach you; i.e., you already have sanctifying grace, and that is sufficient for salvation. So, he says, remain in grace, and, just as it taught you by what you heard to bring you to this anointing, it will cause you to remain in Him (Jesus).

Belief in the Bible, even dedicated belief in its words as written in various versions and forms, does NOT bring salvation. Belief in Jesus the Christ, as G-d and man, brings Baptism, and with it, sanctifying grace…regardless of what version of the Bible you read, regardless of how many books your Bible contains, regardless of a Pope’s decree, regardless of learned rabbis’ selection of Hebrew Scriptures, only, for their Testament. And, we may add, regardless of how literate or educated you may be, regardless of whether you own one or even read it.

So, for all practical purposes towards obtaining salvation, the Bible is irrelevant. If you say “no”, you deny entry to Heaven for all those who died for and in the Faith (some in a most violent manner), including Peter and Paul, and yes, even John, whom we quote. Remember, they died before the “Bible” was constructed and canonized.​

Thanks, folks. It hasn’t been exactly fun, but it is always interesting to plumb the depths of knowledge and interest. No response to this is needed; I am unsubscribing after this posting.

Peace be with you.

You may be unsubscribing, but for anyone interested.

1Jn.5
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

What do you think this record is?

Jn.5
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Reading these passages I would be reluctant to call the Bible irrelevant.

 

[CopticChristian]

You may be unsubscribing, but for anyone interested.

1Jn.5
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

What do you think this record is?

Jn.5
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Reading these passages I would be reluctant to call the Bible irrelevant.

What is your surety that the Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

What is your surety that the Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book?

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.

 

[E.E.N.S]

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.

What about the New Testament?

 

[Marybeloved]

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.

So, Richard, are we to conclude that you are yet “undecided” on the books of the New testament until their prophecies come true? For example, according to you, the Jury is still out on the gospels and Revelations until Jesus returns and proves them true…right? So as we speak, you actually have no New Testament to argue from, do you?..Interesting. So is it when Jesus returns that you’ll believe what the gospels say about him? I’m confused…Can we even call you a Christian in the meantime? You know, as we wait for the gospels to be proved true by fulfilled prophecy and all.

 

[CopticChristian]

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.

This is what I previously asked and since it got me nowhere with you…

Tell me about these prophecies that are 100% accurate.

In consideration of the above and your concrete thinking let me ask the question this way…

Tell me about the 100% accuracy of the Prophecies that you
Richard reason prove that the Bible is truly the word of God, every book compiled that we know and read.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

What about the New Testament?

What about it?