Reason and Belief

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Marybeloved said:
So, Richard, are we to conclude that you are yet “undecided” on the books of the New testament until their prophecies come true? For example, according to you, the Jury is still out on the gospels and Revelations until Jesus returns and proves them true…right? So as we speak, you actually have no New Testament to argue from, do you?..Interesting. So is it when Jesus returns that you’ll believe what the gospels say about him? I’m confused…Can we even call you a Christian in the meantime?:confused: You know, as we wait for the gospels to be proved true by fulfilled prophecy and all.🤷
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The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.

Mary, What do you read when you read this statement? What do you think the bible is about Mary? I mean if you had to give the major theme of the Bible say in one sentence, what would you say that is? Perhaps Rev.19:10 will help.

Rev.19
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
 
Richard_Kastner said:
What about it?
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Richard, come on…Are you genuinely not understanding the Questions being posed to you or are these discussions just about not giving way no matter what rather than getting to the truth?

You’ve said that you accept a book as scripture if its prophecies come 100% true- The question is simple, which prophecies of the New Testament have come 100% true and in which particular books (they are 27, remember) so that we can know, per your criteria, which books actually constitute scripture? For that matter, do we automatically throw out the books of the Bible that contain no prophecies? Even more interesting, how about the books that the CC rejected as scripture? Do we put them back on the table for consideration at par with the 27 while we wait and watch for these prophecies to come 100% true? Those are the questions, my friend.

Please don’t pretend to not be able to understand questions, any more- That game can only go on for so long.:tsktsk:
 
CopticChristian said:
This is what I previously asked and since it got me nowhere with you…

In consideration of the above and your concrete thinking let me ask the question this way…

Tell me about the 100% accuracy of the Prophecies that you
Richard reason prove that the Bible is truly the word of God, every book compiled that we know and read.👍
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Cop, You leave me dumbfounded with this question. What do you want me to say about the 100% accuracy of the prophecies other than they are 100% accurate? You have already stated that you know about prophecy. So, you need to be a little more specific.
 
Marybeloved said:
Richard, come on…Are you genuinely not understanding the Questions being posed to you or are these discussions just about not giving way no matter what rather than getting to the truth?

You’ve said that you accept a book as scripture if its prophecies come 100% true- The question is simple, which prophecies of the New Testament have come 100% true and in which particular books (they are 27, remember) so that we can know, per your criteria, which books actually constitute scripture? For that matter, do we automatically throw out the books of the Bible that contain no prophecies? Even more interesting, how about the books that the CC rejected as scripture? Do we put them back on the table for consideration at par with the 27 while we wait and watch for these prophecies to come true 100%? Those are the questions, my friend.

Please don’t pretend to not be able to understand questions, any more- That game can only go on for so long.:tsktsk:
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I’m understanding the question. It’s you who are not understanding my statement. Here it is again.

“The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.” I was trying to get to the answer to your question in my answer to you, but you choose not to answer my post to you so let’s go from here. I asked you what you read when you read my statement. Quite obviously you are not understanding. So let me try to explain. Rev. 19:10 says that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ. Right? So, what does that mean? In Matt.22 when Jesus was talking to the Pharasee lawyer we read

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus says that the two great commandments of love are what the LAW and the PROPHETS hang on. Well, what does He mean by this? This is basically what the bible is all about. The LAW is talking about God’s great moral law which is a reflection of His character, the Ten Commandments. The Prophets as we have seen in Rev. 19:10 is the testimony of Jesus Christ. This in a nutshell is God’s plan of salvation. When we put ouselves up before the Character of God, the Ten Commandments, we fall short. Rom.3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; God is holy and cannot will not live with sin and because sin leads to death we must die. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; however, as the rest of Rom.6:23 says there is a solution. “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” This is what the prophets talk about. Right? Remember Rev19:10? Now it is clear from reading the bible that Jesus came once to this planet 2000 years ago. There are approximately 300 prophecies that talked about Jesus’ first manifestation. It is said that for just eight of those prophecies to come true, would be like covering the state of Texas with silver dollars two feet thick, then randomly dropping one painted red in them blindfolding someone and having them go pick it up. But all three hundred of them came true. It is because of this that I can trust that the prophecies that talk about His second comming will come to pass. We clear now?
 
Richard_Kastner said:
The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.
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Now here we have a very strange animal indeed! A book written that contains prophecies that are already past and about events that have already occurred and that is proof that they are true!!! If I write a book now about things that have already happened by the time I’m writing, how is that proof of prophecy? Are you applying your own criteria retroactively? If Someone said in 1800 that we would have major wars, If I write now that we have had two World Wars, How would my own writing be prophecy?🤷 Only the 1800’s writing is prophecy! Mine is just a book about events that happened that may or may not fit the 1800’s writing!

By your criteria, for me to know if St. Mathew’s gospel is scripture, it would have to make accurate predictions that would then come true- not write about things that were there before and anyone could talk and write about! The only way it would fit your criteria is if St. Mathew’s gospel made the predictions about the Messiah (Not OT books) and then proved they happened.
Mary, What do you read when you read this statement? What do you think the bible is about Mary? I mean if you had to give the major theme of the Bible say in one sentence, what would you say that is? Perhaps Rev.19:10 will help.
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Rev.19
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
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Richard, come on my friend. Don’t raise red herrings- There’s other threads to thrash out Mary’s place in Christianity. Besides, your quotation proves nothing. Catholics love Mary the Way Orthodox Jews love the Ark of the Covenant, we don’t worship her any more than the Jews worship the Ark- Yet despite their incredible reverence for it to this day, no one dares accuse them of “Arkiolatry”? Again, Mary is never worshipped- She’s greatly and deeply loved, honored, revered, so your quoting that verse to me is very misplaced.

And who said anything about the bible being about Mary? You think that if you say untruths about her and are refuted that makes the bible about Mary? For Catholics, everything, everything- even our great honor of Mary- is about Jesus! Everything- Not just the bible.

Mary is not immaculate because she’s a star, she’s not full of grace because she’s just a superb human being, she’s not ever-virgin because she’s hot, she’s not in Heaven because we think it’s kinda cool!! She’s all these things because she was created to bear Jesus, love him, serve him, obey him and be with him in heaven. You need to learn to read the scriptures as a single whole, my friend, from Genesis to Revelations- Know that it’s all about Jesus and what happened to him, and you may be able to escape deeply ingrained protestant biases. I say that Honestly, my friend.
 
Richard_Kastner said:
I’m understanding the question. It’s you who are not understanding my statement…
There are approximately 300 prophecies that talked about Jesus’ first manifestation. It is said that for just eight of those prophecies to come true, would be like covering the state of Texas with silver dollars two feet thick, then randomly dropping one painted red in them blindfolding someone and having them go pick it up. But all three hundred of them came true. It is because of this that I can trust that the prophecies that talk about His second comming will come to pass. We clear now?
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Richard, perhaps you are the one who really has trouble following the proper line of reasoning here:

First, For any of this to be true, we have to assume that the gospels are speaking the truth! Your theory assumes that it’s already scripture first! Which beats the whole point of your criteria to begin with! That these events about Jesus actually happened, such as birth in Bethlehem etc before we can say it fulfills scripture! How do you know the evangelists did not just come up with these facts to fit into prophecies that had been there already centuries before?

Second, if we take them as true, by your own criteria they still fail- They only prove that the OT is scripture- Not themselves!!- They are only reporting facts and events that happened- That’s the work of historians and story-tellers! How does it prove divine inspiration was involved- aka scripture? They could record certain events accurately and others inaccurately like any writer, how does this show that it’s God’s book? By your criteria, for these records and stories to be more than ordinary writings of men, protected in any more special way than other historical writings, they would themselves would have to make predictions that would come true!

You criteria is flawed- It’s based on first assuming that a book is scripture- completely accurate and divinely protected, in order to prove that it is scripture and divinely protected! It’s called circular reasoning.
 
Marybeloved said:
Richard, perhaps you are the one who really has trouble following the proper line of reasoning here:

First, For any of this to be true, we have to assume that the gospels are speaking the truth! Your theory assumes that it’s already scripture first! Which beats the whole point of your criteria to begin with! That these events about Jesus actually happened, such as birth in Bethlehem etc before we can say it fulfills scripture! How do you know the evangelists did not just come up with these facts to fit into prophecies that had been there already centuries before?

Second, if we take them as true, by your own criteria they still fail- They only prove that the OT is scripture- Not themselves!!- They are only reporting facts and events that happened- That’s the work of historians and story-tellers! How does it prove divine inspiration was involved- aka scripture? They could record certain events accurately and others inaccurately like any writer, how does this show that it’s God’s book? By your criteria, for these records and stories to be more than ordinary writings of men, protected in any more special way than other historical writings, they would themselves would have to make predictions that would come true!

You criteria is flawed- It’s based on first assuming that a book is scripture- completely accurate and divinely protected, in order to prove that it is scripture and divinely protected! It’s called circular reasoning.
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Oh, I get it you don’t believe that Jesus existed. I’m sorry for you Mary. I’ll pray for you.

Heb.11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
 
Marybeloved said:
Now here we have a very strange animal indeed! A book written that contains prophecies that are already past and about events that have already occurred and that is proof that they are true!!! If I write a book now about things that have already happened by the time I’m writing, how is that proof of prophecy? Are you applying your own criteria retroactively? If Someone said in 1800 that we would have major wars, If I write now that we have had two World Wars, How would my own writing be prophecy?🤷 Only the 1800’s writing is prophecy! Mine is just a book about events that happened that may or may not fit the 1800’s writing!

By your criteria, for me to know if St. Mathew’s gospel is scripture, it would have to make accurate predictions that would then come true- not write about things that were there before and anyone could talk and write about! The only way it would fit your criteria is if St. Mathew’s gospel made the predictions about the Messiah (Not OT books) and then proved they happened.

Richard, come on my friend. Don’t raise red herrings- There’s other threads to thrash out Mary’s place in Christianity. Besides, your quotation proves nothing. Catholics love Mary the Way Orthodox Jews love the Ark of the Covenant, we don’t worship her any more than the Jews worship the Ark- Yet despite their incredible reverence for it to this day, no one dares accuse them of “Arkiolatry”? Again, Mary is never worshipped- She’s greatly and deeply loved, honored, revered, so your quoting that verse to me is very misplaced.

And who said anything about the bible being about Mary? You think that if you say untruths about her and are refuted that makes the bible about Mary? For Catholics, everything, everything- even our great honor of Mary- is about Jesus! Everything- Not just the bible.

Mary is not immaculate because she’s a star, she’s not full of grace because she’s just a superb human being, she’s not ever-virgin because she’s hot, she’s not in Heaven because we think it’s kinda cool!! She’s all these things because she was created to bear Jesus, love him, serve him, obey him and be with him in heaven. You need to learn to read the scriptures as a single whole, my friend, from Genesis to Revelations- Know that it’s all about Jesus and what happened to him, and you may be able to escape deeply ingrained protestant biases. I say that Honestly, my friend.
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When I used the name Mary in my post it was a reference to you Marybeloved, not Mary the mother of God. Sorry about the confusion.
 
Richard_Kastner said:
Oh, I get it you don’t believe that Jesus existed. I’m sorry for you Mary. I’ll pray for you.

Heb.11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
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Well, Richard, At least you finally accept the truth:thumbsup:…your faith is based on total blind faith, just like Islam.

I wont even bother responding to the comment about my not believing in Jesus’ existence- I think it pretty much speaks for itself. I suppose I may be tempted to engage in such tactics if my arguments and reasoning fell flat, as well. No worries, Richard… I take no offense at all.👍
 
Marybeloved said:
Well, Richard, At least you finally accept the truth:thumbsup:…your faith is based on total blind faith, just like Islam.
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What is your faith based on Mary?
I wont even bother responding to the comment about my not believing in Jesus’ existence- I think it pretty much speaks for itself. No worries, Richard… I take no offense at all.👍
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You wrote this
First, For any of this to be true, we have to assume that the gospels are speaking the truth! Your theory assumes that it’s already scripture first! Which beats the whole point of your criteria to begin with! That these events about Jesus actually happened, such as birth in Bethlehem etc before we can say it fulfills scripture! How do you know the evangelists did not just come up with these facts to fit into prophecies that had been there already centuries before?
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This statement taken with your statement above, “Well, Richard, At least you finally accept the truth:thumbsup:…your faith is based on total blind faith, just like Islam” seems to be saying that you don’t believe what the bible says about Jesus. In your statement above you seem to have a disdain for both faith and Islam.

Perhaps I misunderstood but aren’t you saying here that you don’t base your “faith” on faith. And if I did misunderstand, what do you base it on?
 
Richard_Kastner said:
What is your faith based on Mary?

You wrote this

This statement taken with your statement above, “Well, Richard, At least you finally accept the truth:thumbsup:…your faith is based on total blind faith, just like Islam” seems to be saying that you don’t believe what the bible says about Jesus. In your statement above you seem to have a disdain for both faith and Islam.

Perhaps I misunderstood but aren’t you saying here that you don’t base your “faith” on faith. And if I did misunderstand, what do you base it on?
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You seem to be able to write lots and ask questions when attacking Mary in another post and here and for some reason choose not to answer the question in this thread. You seem to be able to attack and poor abililty to defend of your proposition as to the surety of Scripture.
 
CopticChristian said:
You seem to be able to write lots and ask questions when attacking Mary in another post and here and for some reason choose not to answer the question in this thread. You seem to be able to attack and poor abililty to defend of your proposition as to the surety of Scripture.
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To the best of my ability I have answered all the questions posed that made any sense.

Are you saying that the prophecies of the bible are wrong? Or are you saying like Marybeloved that we can’t rely on scripture as being true?
 
Richard_Kastner said:
To the best of my ability I have answered all the questions posed that made any sense.

Are you saying that the prophecies of the bible are wrong? Or are you saying like Marybeloved that we can’t rely on scripture as being true?
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So since you did not answer my question and others you are saying that they do not make sense…please add “to me” and then ask a question to clarify. When you say…

this does not make sense to me…are you asking this or that…this would indicate an intent to answer. You never answer and play games.
 
Richard_Kastner said:
To the best of my ability I have answered all the questions posed that made any sense.

Are you saying that the prophecies of the bible are wrong? Or are you saying like Marybeloved that we can’t rely on scripture as being true?/QUOTE]

I ask again what is the surety that your reliance on scripture is true…how can you be sure that what you are relying on is Scripture? Is this so difficult to answer?
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CopticChristian said:
Richard Kastner;8462159:
To the best of my ability I have answered all the questions posed that made any sense.

Are you saying that the prophecies of the bible are wrong? Or are you saying like Marybeloved that we can’t rely on scripture as being true?/
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QUOTE]

I ask again what is the surety that your reliance on scripture is true…how can you be sure that what you are relying on is Scripture? Is this so difficult to answer?

No it’s not that hard to answer. I just don’t understand your reason for asking it.
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