Reason and Belief

[CopticChristian]

Why may you not say that?

Jn.17
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I apologize, wrong word, but isn’t apologize and ask forgiveness the same thing? Well anyway I hope we’re good.

Apologize is like saying excuse me. It involves no thought. It is like stepping into a dark theatre and saying excuse me as you make your way across the aisle. Forgiveness implies thought, action and plans to reconsider further action. To apologize does not demand an action from another. To ask forgiveness causes another to reflect and understand that there is a relinquishing of pride to ask.

I routinely teach my daughter to ask for forgiveness for all wrong doings. Sorry just doesn’t cut it.

 

[Marybeloved]

You are saying that the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeramiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and the rest of the minor prophets don’t exist?

I guess you are right here Mary. My choice is based on a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and this relationship is based on faith not reason and that faith is not open to scrutiny by you or anyone else.

My premise of faith in my Lord and Savior my be “wrong” in your eyes, but I am unconcerned with your scrutiny of my “emotional, mental and spiritual investments.” I am completely comfortable with them.

Again you attack my FAITH in my Lord as being “unhealthy situations.”

Reason is not “the only tool God has given us to seek truth” God will give us the power of His Spirit.
Eph.1
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

The Father through His Spirit enlightens us and empowers us with the same power that raised Jesus from the dead.
But in order for that to happen we must be willing to die to ourselves, to our self righteousness, and yes our reason, and become totally and completely committed to the will of God.

Richard, don’t tell lies, how can your choice be based on your personal relationship with Christ, when that personal relationship is the choice?? Did you develop a relationship with Jesus before you chose him, or Did you choose to develop a relationship with Jesus?

You complain that reason is not the tool to choose the truth for a seeker? Is a human not a creature of free will and intelligence? What is the purpose of intellect (reason) if not to seek truth, which is God, and what is the purpose of free will if not to embrace it (him) when we find it (him)? Reason alone cannot give you faith, that’s why I said that faith is a gift. But faith is a gift that God gives to people who seek the truth with honesty, to the best of their ability. Because desire for truth is desire for God who has placed this desire in us.

There are many faiths and belief-systems and world-views (such as sola scriptura) that claim people’s assent of faith. How is the seeker to choose between them all? What is naturally available to him from God to do this if not his two faculties? How are they to decide that Jesus spoke truth but not Mohammed?- Is it not their natural intuition of what is good? There are those who see the truth and reject it for the demands it makes of them, that’s why we speak of faith as gift. St. Augustine found his way to Christianity by reason, but he could not give his assent of faith though he wanted to, until God gave him the gift and he fully accepted Christianity. But had he not pursued truth, he would have no reason to ask for faith, and God would not have given it to him. Why does St. Peter tell us to be ready to give a reason? Because that’s the human nature.

Again, you’re up to your tricks and tactics, falsely making it look like I attacked your belief in Jesus. I attacked a fallacious basis you have, called “sola scriptura” and a ridiculous theory you came up with to attempt to circumvent Apostolic tradition. It seems you have no ability to defend your views without bringing up falsehoods. Like I said before, you’re not committed to the truth, you’re committed to defending a choice (sola scriptura) by denying the truth of Apostolic tradition at all costs and by all means- including performing intellectual somersaults and self-deceptions. That’s your problem.

I had no desire to continue this pointless “debate”. I decided to respond to this only because I realized you may mislead/scandalize readers by implying that I mean that our faith is based on reason, had to set the record straight- It’s based on truth, as I said. Our intellect is the only natural means we have of seeking it, And there is a duty incumbent upon each man upon attaining the age of reason, and divinely mandated by his creator who gives him his faculties- to seek truth and goodness and on that road, God meets you. That’s why many come here to CAF- They are seeking reasons to believe, which is truth. That’s why many others who couldn’t be bothered will have no excuse on that day. Seeking truth (reason) will put you in the direction, and there will always be plenty of room for a leap (faith). But this is not the blind and foolish or superstitious leap of pagans or cults or madmen, but of one who has encountered the truth. Our Church speaks extensively on the relationship between faith and reason, for those interested, Google it.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Apologize is like saying excuse me. It involves no thought. It is like stepping into a dark theatre and saying excuse me as you make your way across the aisle. Forgiveness implies thought, action and plans to reconsider further action. To apologize does not demand an action from another. To ask forgiveness causes another to reflect and understand that there is a relinquishing of pride to ask.

I routinely teach my daughter to ask for forgiveness for all wrong doings. Sorry just doesn’t cut it.

Wow, thank you for that profound insight. Here’s one back maybe you have thought of it, maybe not. Last night after I posted that last post I started to think about Jn. 17. Jesus makes mention of the only one that He lost. Jn.17: 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
It got me to thinking that This prayer of Jesus’ was probably prayed in the garden of Getsemene. In fact the Sanhedrens little army was probably on it’s way to arrest Jesus. The last part of Jesus prayer was for us and by that I mean you Coptic Christian and me Richard Kastner and all other believers. So, the thing on Jesus’ mind just before His arrest were the ones who He came to save. I don’t know I somehow found this reassuring, just thought I would share. Peace.

 

[hockeyfan]

Forget it, my friend. There are no such prophecies, and our friend Richard knows it.

I figured I would give him a chance at a reasonable explanation. He blew it.

You are saying that the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and the rest of the minor prophets don’t exist?

Here comes the Red Herring. It has been made clear to Richard many upon many times that we know Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophesy. The issue is that according to Richard, to verify scripture, you need to point to prophesies that have come true. Though the New Testament verifies the Old Testament scriptures, Richard refuses to point to a New Testament prophesy that can be verified. Instead, he throws a red herring with scriptures that are irrelevant.

Btw, I believe in the New Testament on faith, and I will admit it.

The scripture verse jn.8:32 you quote is incomplete. It goes along with v.31. Here it is along with some more of ch.8

31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Mary, Is not your advice that we put aside all this faith or belief in our Savior. Look at verse 44"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Isn’t this exactly what you are proposing Mary? That we should set aside faith and pick up our own “reason” and speak of our own.

Jn.8
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jn.14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And here is where Richard truly shows his colors. He finally shows a New Testament quote, and disappoints by using it to bash Mary. Instead of using a rational argument, Richard essentially implies that Mary is going to go to Hell.

Often times you can tell who has won an argument when they start throwing personal attacks. Ding, ding, ding, Coptic and Mary, I declare you the winners of this match! It is clear that Richard is saying these things, and has no idea on how he is going to back it up. So, instead, he is going to attack the people who ask him these questions.